HotFezz8 said:
Lotet said:
HotFezz8 said:
Lotet said:
HotFezz8 said:
i believe that tanks themselves are things of the past.
nowadays the yanks have aircraft which can map out every single armoured vehicle in theatre in about twenty seconds, if won't be too long before some bright spark makes the B-1s carry homing missiles, so as far as i can see the enemie's armour will be destroyed in the first day of any future war with america.
and if there is no enemy armour there is precious little need to bring armour of our own. even if you can think of a reasonable reason to bring a challenger it is a massive logisitcal head ache (the main limiting factor for the american advance of the Gulf Wars was the fact their armour kept on out running its own fuel) as well as that you have countless blokes running around not well pacifified areas trying to keep it supplied.
there is nothing armour can do which air power can't do quicker, better, more accurately and safer.
(oh and before anyone says it, if you don't have air superiority your going to die. all your shiney armour vehicles (or boats) will be are targets, e.g. the falklands, gulf 1, and gulf 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUeqSseERo&feature=related
modern Anti-Air is NOT controlled manually, it's controlled by a computer and radar because it's impossible to hide when you're always out in the open, radars can spor Air Units from over 10 Miles away and that's just the small ones mounted on tanks, you think air units can blow anything apart from a safe height? and you also believe we wouldn't make a way to counter them?
a single round from that rapid fire cannon can rip a hole in an aircraft and at those speed that single hole will rip a wing off. and by the way, Fighter Planes cannot fly between continents, they need airports and aircraft-carriers to follow them where ever they go. aircraft-carriers are also often equiped with plenty of anti-air with huge radars to back up the defense
did I forget to mention that missiles can be blown out of the sky with this same technology?
sorry, almost forget, a) ground based AA has a visual range of 3 miles for anything lower than 50 feet. seeing as modern jets measure their speed by the speed of sound and have perfected nap of the earth approach (that is to say, flying very low) 3 - 5 miles gives you about twenty seconds to locate, target, and fire.
b) shoulder launched AA missiles (famously the stinger) are not massively useful. they are over hyped, period. the taliban have them in afghanistan and have for 6 years, but nowadays even attack helicopters have chaff and counter measures aboard, and if you can't shoot down a helicopter you have no chance against a jet.
c) re. your comment on a bullet going straight through a jet. yes, it would, but 1 piece of AAA has (sorry, anti air artillery) has no chance of hitting anything. in the falkland islands when the invasion fleet was offloading their materials the argentine jets flew low enough to be shot at with rifle rounds (also powerful enough to take it apart) and still, with 3,000 paras and commandos and the combined weaponary of 10 + ships aircraft were still getting in and out safely.
d) ok, lets say you have a magic AA grid. just like gulf 1 and 2 the enemy (assuming he is technologically superior, i.e. US coalition) puts in SF (special forces), who direct in Tomahawk missiles from submarines, which fly at 50 feet and 500 miles per hour. a giant hole is blown in you AA coverage, stealth aircraft fly in, you country is gutted.
a magic grid? don't mock me. stealth aircraft merely reduce radar capabilities by half of so, given, thet is a significan't ability if we think of the radar range as a sphere which now only has half the radius
but a fighter plane is a one shot unit, it need to return to base for another payload against ground forces. you might not have noticed me mention how mechs are useless in defense, tanks as well. but Fighter Planes? wreakage in a heartbeat. they are the most incapable units for responding to a surprise attack and unlike tanks and infantry you don't get a choice for where you stop. you don't need a master scout to locate an airfield. I think you'll find that many planes like to bomb thier targets randomly, hoping to hit something and scare the survivors
but like I've said before. don't expect your enemy to fight exactly how you want them to. a good general learns from the past as those who don't know thier past are doomed to repeat it. if you think the enemy will wait in the open for you attacks then the war must have only begun, but if you expect that a powerful country can be struck at the capital building then you don't know how difficult war is. if you cannont counter a weapon with defense then you can counter it with a manuever
of course, if you enemy is an incompetent war mongerer, then go ahead with an airstike, it'll likly work for a while
but tell me, what happens if the enemy launches a large scale attack on your airfields? fighter planse are pratically made out of Explodium, at least according to 'Destroyed in Seconds' haha
please don't tell me you're going to do the most obvious reply to the attack possible
lets start off with a assumption we may both be able to agree on. you will have technilogical superiority over the enemy. i.e. you will be able to gain air superiority. if you don't have the ability to control the air at best you are going to get creamed, at worst, utterly annihalted.
therefore we can assume we will have AWAC aircraft airborne, who will detect this large scale attack. we can also assume it will be destroyed by our friendly air force. at this point if you lose this battle and the enemy take air superiority your tanks are all USELESS. at best they will need to hide in a ditch until they can surrender or at worst they will be destroyed by air to ground anti armour weaponary.
you can't argue that fighters are useless, they are not. you can't even say they are particularly vunerable (during gulf war 1 the coalition flew 100,000 sorties, dropped 88,500 tonnes of bombed and utterly annihalted the iraqi army and russian made top of the notch air defense. despite this they lost only 52 aircraft.) and for the foreseeable futire never will be. you CAN argue that tanks are useless.
they die if a enemy plane finds them, they die if a enemy Javelin (or similar TOW weaopn unit) finds them, they die if the enemy know where they will go and have the chance to put a 1,000 pounder under the ground ahead of them.
all a tank is a way of putting two machine guns and a artillery piece into action with some degree of safety. and nowadays they can't even do it safely. tanks had their hey day back in the 70s and eariler when planes were useless at ground support or anti armour weaponary. (and back before every other infantryman didn't carry a anti-armour weapon.)
I meant you getting attacked while your planes were in port. a fighter plane cannot pick up enough altiutude or speed to avoid even the most rudimentary AA weaponry when they have to 'defend'. my friend, you seem to be under the impression that fighter planes are perfect for any military manuever. in real war the enemy is not always obvious, the enemy doesn't sit on the borders of thier towns and walk openly in the streets. the enemy can hide, as they have done so in recent wars. you're likely right that if a fighter plane finds a tank that the tank will get blown up but really, out of the entire area a tank could exist and out of the amount of time you have to spot it as you fly over, pah. what are the chances
how about this, I rush a bunch of quick 15ft mechs (remember the original topic?) into your airfield, as your planes are taking off they are velnerable. what? you want me to wait for you to get ready for the attack? why? you want me to behave in such a way that will ensure your victory? or don't you planes ever need to dock in to refuel and reload? or maybe your airfield is in another country, then how are you supposed to be fighting the war? mate, if you're that far away then the enemy will gain too much air superiority within thier own grounds, which when combined with ground defenders, well, you won't know what you're doing when the fighter planes arrive then will you?
you see, yes, fighter planes are very destructive and can blow up basically anything, and if not a fighter then a bomber. but they have weaknesses, just like every other unit and in war a truly skilled commander will ALWAYS exploit the weakesses. but yes, if the circumstances are
just so then an air assault can dish out a lot of damage
by the way, how hard do you think it is to blow a missile out of the sky when the enemy is already firing at the plane? it's like charging into melee against a gun line without any cover.
but we need a real modern war to truly figure this. in every prior war we've have learned valuable lessons in combat and in every war we've made something that changes battle as we know it. you think such a dangerous unit will stay on top?
why stop with mech? why not lasers, you know, travel at the speed of light, hook them up to a computer and clear the skies, hoo, can't wait eh?
sorry for talking like a fool, using Mechs and Lasers in my argument
