The moral behind Skyrim's two factions

[Ranorak]

As someone who is soon to get into the game, I have something to ask that is semi-related.

Does the decision to join Empire or Stormcloak rest only on who you follow during the first dragon attack, or can you take your time about side-picking after this?

Edit: Furthermore, can you change your mind if you discover a new piece of lore that makes you think differently about your "side"?

The first choice when escaping doesn't matter, it's just to get you into the game.
However, as soon as you officially joined either faction, you're stuck.

 

[minarri]

Well, from similar such threads, most Stormcloak supporters go with the "Imperials tried to kill me" argument, which would imply you should join the Nazis in WW2 if you get nearly executed by the USA over a misunderstanding and later pardoned. Beyond that, all Stormcloaks have is whining about the White-Gold Concordat, which the Empire was forced into. The Imperials don't like the Concordat and are only biding their time until they can do something about it (as much is basically spelled out for you by Tullius). But no, Ulfric wants to weaken the humans even more by fracturing their unity, which would simply be justification the Thalmor need to invade Skyrim (now weakened by civil war) and/or the Empire ("blaming" them for not stopping the Stormcloaks). In fact W-GC was designed to fracture the human nations and make them easy pickings, and Ulfric is an unwitting pawn of the Thalmor (as is evidenced by a journal you recover during Diplomatic Immunity). Honestly, there is no justification for joining the Stormcloaks other than "My character is a racist and/or moron"...

You've said it much more eloquently than I ever would have been able to manage. I agree with you completely here. The only reason I can think of that someone would side with the Stormcloaks is that he or she is a bearer of grudges and is unable to look at the big picture.

 

[PurePareidolia]

The Imperial Legion. For great justice! [http://www.prequeladventure.com/this/KatiaDrinkUp.html]

And also because the stormcloaks were racists who antagonised me every single time I tried to help them. At least the imperials had some respect for the guy singlehandedly winning their entire war for them.

 

[Vrach]

Discuss your morals.

I went with supporting the Stormcloaks. Why? Well, let's see:
1) Empire hunts Ulfric as a traitor and a murderer. He's neither - he defeated the High King in honourable combat as is the way of their people. This is not Stormcloak propaganda, it's fact, the ex-King himself tells you as much in Sovngarde if you talk to him.

2) Empire is being a power hungry *****, not Ulfric. There is absolutely no reason why Skyrim can not have its independence and be an ally to the Empire. If the Empire is arrogant enough to throw away an ally because they don't have their puppet on the throne, that's their own stupidity and they deserve to be conquered by the Altmeri Dominion.

Also, what exactly does being conquered by the Altmeri Dominion entail? They already have the White Gold Concordat to impose their own beliefs and opinions on the Empire, what else could they do? They're not the exterminating kind and they're already lording over the land, so I fail to see what more harm would come of that anyway.

3) The Altmeri Dominion is not even much of an issue. If they decide to move on Skyrim and the Empire doesn't react because they feel it's not their own territory, that's their own tactical stupidity and frankly I think the Empire above that as a whole. If the Dominion attacks the Empire (unlikely, it's Skyrim that offends them with Talos worship), I'll bet you the Nords will be the first to put their soldiers into that war to kick some pompous elf arse, no one hates them more than they do.

The racism is born out of being pretty much lorded over, having their beliefs and traditions suppressed. Give the Nords their independence and some time and it'll be rooted out, but it's not gonna go away with the Empire pressing down on them, it's only gonna get worse. And if you think Skyrim needs to stay under Imperial control because of the Altmeri Dominion, tell me, what do you think would happen when at least 50% (and more over time with further oppression) of Nord troops would hate the guts of the other 50% and every single Imperial on the battle lines?

 

[senordesol]

I joined the Empire because...well Martin from the last game was a decent fellow. Other than that there was really nothing informing my decision...not that it ever seemed to matter. I make it to freaking Legate and Rikka is still treating me like I'm meat? And no one really seems to notice or care that the war was over.

In Oblivion it felt good when the town guards stammered, dumbstruck 'It...it's you! The Hero of Kvatch! This is an honor!' Nothing like that happened in Skyrim. I mean I kill a damn dragon in the middle of town and the guards still warn me against 'making trouble'. I eat dragon souls for breakfast, dummy! I don't think the Town Watch is going to be up to the task of bringing me in.

 

[Obvious Ninja]

Well, from similar such threads, most Stormcloak supporters go with the "Imperials tried to kill me" argument, which would imply you should join the Nazis in WW2 if you get nearly executed by the USA over a misunderstanding and later pardoned.

This isn't a "misunderstanding and later pardoned", this is, they captured me, realised that I wasn't a Sotrmcloak, but decied "Nah, we'll kill him anyway for teh lulz".

One person did, and someone else disagreed with her. They didn't all vote on that or anything, it was just one crazy *****.

 

[Right Hook]

I've said as much in other threads, but the Imperials just turned out to be the lesser of two evils. If your primary concern is consolidating power to resist a foreign aggressor, you should side with the stronger, less sectarian power. To me, the great evil Ulfric represented was not racist nationalism, but entropy.

My thoughts exactly and the idea is stated explicitly by the Thalmor in the game, while they don't want the Stormcloaks to win, because that gives them yet another war to wage, the Thalmor especially don't want the Stormcloaks to lose because then "the arrow in the knee" that they are to the Legion is removed. Thus allowing the Legion to consolidate enough power to strike hard against the Thalmor. Basically the Stormcloaks need to stop pissing in everyone's cereal, suspend liberties momentarily and help the Empire save the world. Right now all they are doing is contributing to their own eventual death and the death of everything they believe in, the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend, in fact he is even worse and wants to wipe my ass off the face of this planet, essentially.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

Imperials can stay the hell out of Skyrim. They kill people without questioning and can't hold Skyrim against the Dominion anyway.

 

[pffh]

Also, what exactly does being conquered by the Altmeri Dominion entail? They already have the White Gold Concordat to impose their own beliefs and opinions on the Empire, what else could they do? They're not the exterminating kind and they're already lording over the land, so I fail to see what more harm would come of that anyway.

Slaughter and enslavement of all men. It has happened before on Tamriel and if the Altmeri Dominion wins it will happen again. When the Aylied ruled Cyrodil all men were slaves and treated worse then the cattle they looked after.

What do you think will happen if Skyrim secedes? An altmeri fleet will arrive at the north armed to the teeth with battlemages to enforce a blockade on all Skyrims ports (the lifelines of Skyrim and the only reason more then half it's population is being fed). As the people starve you'll see massive uprising of the Dunmer refugees that will be left out in the cold and even more of them will be flooding into Skyrim (remember Morrowind is covered in ash and the Argonians are constantly pushing north forcing more and more Dunmer into Skyrim) so they will claim part of eastern Skyrim for their own. The forsworn will attack the reach and bring their own supplies with them. The people of the reach will welcome them as they bring food but will then be slaughtered.

Skyrim is now starving and fractured, the people are angry and a new civil war will start this time against Ulfric but it's to late without the support of the Nord warriors the Empire wasn't able to repel the second invasion of the Altmeri (remember they never invaded Skyrim just blockaded it so they both have all their forces still alive and most of them not tied up anywhere). The Empire falls, High rock claims independence and joins in an alliance with Hammerfell and Orsinium that stops the Altmer invasion there so they refocus their attention on Skyrim. Skyrim falls. The only free men are now the Manmer and the Redguards. Systematic culling of the now enslaved Nords and Imperials start to reduce their numbers and the rest are shipped all over the new Altmeri Dominium as cattle for their new masters as the cities of men are destroyed and new Altmeri cities replace them.

 

[SirDoom]

Stormcloak all the way!

The empire is nothing but a Thalmor footstool. They let the Thalmor end religious freedom, let the Thalmor roam the countryside stealing people from their own homes and imprisoning them without trial, and they are just... well, pathetic really. Ulfric seems reasonable, and while I can't entirely get behind the "other races bad, blah blah blah" part, I see him as more of the freedom fighter.

Really though, I didn't put much thought into the decision. The Thalmor really pissed me off though, so I decided to pick whichever side was more directly opposed to them. Which just so happened to be the stormcloaks.

 

[pffh]

Stormcloak all the way!

The empire is nothing but a Thalmor footstool. They let the Thalmor end religious freedom, let the Thalmor roam the countryside stealing people from their own homes and imprisoning them without trial, and they are just... well, pathetic really.

You do realize none of that was happening before Ulfric started his uprising? The Empire was more then happy letting people ignore the white gold-concordant (remember they hate it too, it forbids the worship of their first emperor) but when Ulfric started this whole mess the Altmeri put their foot down and demanded that the concordant be followed and with the empire still rebuilding it's forces (which are now being weakened in a useless civil war) it was forced to obey, for now. You see the empire is planning on attacking the Dominion as soon as they've won the civil war and when that happens the white gold concordant will be broken.

 

[HerbertTheHamster]

Stormcloak, because I for one support our Thalmor overlords.

If there's one thing oblivion taught me it's that the empire is completely fucking useless at everything it does.

 

[anthony87]

Well, from similar such threads, most Stormcloak supporters go with the "Imperials tried to kill me" argument, which would imply you should join the Nazis in WW2 if you get nearly executed by the USA over a misunderstanding and later pardoned. Beyond that, all Stormcloaks have is whining about the White-Gold Concordat, which the Empire was forced into. The Imperials don't like the Concordat and are only biding their time until they can do something about it (as much is basically spelled out for you by Tullius). But no, Ulfric wants to weaken the humans even more by fracturing their unity, which would simply be justification the Thalmor need to invade Skyrim (now weakened by civil war) and/or the Empire ("blaming" them for not stopping the Stormcloaks). In fact W-GC was designed to fracture the human nations and make them easy pickings, and Ulfric is an unwitting pawn of the Thalmor (as is evidenced by a journal you recover during Diplomatic Immunity). Honestly, there is no justification for joining the Stormcloaks other than "My character is a racist and/or moron"...

Did you really just imply that siding with the native people of Skyrim is comparable to joining an insane genocide causing dictator?

How about you read what you type in the future before you start throwing around words like "moron" yeah?

 

[Vrach]

Also, what exactly does being conquered by the Altmeri Dominion entail? They already have the White Gold Concordat to impose their own beliefs and opinions on the Empire, what else could they do? They're not the exterminating kind and they're already lording over the land, so I fail to see what more harm would come of that anyway.

Slaughter and enslavement of all men. It has happened before on Tamriel and if the Altmeri Dominion wins it will happen again. When the Aylied ruled Cyrodil all men were slaves and treated worse then the cattle they looked after.

What do you think will happen if Skyrim secedes? An altmeri fleet will arrive at the north armed to the teeth with battlemages to enforce a blockade on all Skyrims ports (the lifelines of Skyrim and the only reason more then half it's population is being fed). As the people starve you'll see massive uprising of the Dunmer refugees that will be left out in the cold and even more of them will be flooding into Skyrim (remember Morrowind is covered in ash and the Argonians are constantly pushing north forcing more and more Dunmer into Skyrim) so they will claim part of eastern Skyrim for their own. The forsworn will attack the reach and bring their own supplies with them. The people of the reach will welcome them as they bring food but will then be slaughtered.

Skyrim is now starving and fractured, the people are angry and a new civil war will start this time against Ulfric but it's to late without the support of the Nord warriors the Empire wasn't able to repel the second invasion of the Altmeri (remember they never invaded Skyrim just blockaded it so they both have all their forces still alive and most of them not tied up anywhere). The Empire falls, High rock claims independence and joins in an alliance with Hammerfell and Orsinium that stops the Altmer invasion there so they refocus their attention on Skyrim. Skyrim falls. The only free men are now the Manmer and the Redguards. Systematic culling of the now enslaved Nords and Imperials start to reduce their numbers and the rest are shipped all over the new Altmeri Dominium as cattle for their new masters as the cities of men are destroyed and new Altmeri cities replace them.

Again, if the Empire is too stupid to protect their allies and let themselves be taken out one province at a time, that's their own fault. The Altmeri Dominion didn't put the White Gold Concordat there because it's super important to them, they put it there to cause infighting - if the Empire is blind to that, they've no one but themselves to blame for it.

Point is, what the Altmeri Dominion is doing with WGC to the Empire/Skyrim is what anyone in the real world would call being conquered and ruled over. They even have their own people and soldiers there, even a fucking inquisition. The notion that those fighting for freedom against such oppression are traitors, idiots or whatever you'd call them is preposterous. The AD is strong, yes, likely even stronger than the Empire united. But no power can rule an unwilling land forever, history showed us as much time and again. Ruling through the WGC though - that's the next best thing and they don't even have to commission any troops to it.

Without any resistance, the Altmeri Dominion can just sit back and build its power while the Empire crumbles into itself because they're too stupid to see what they agreed to. Even if Rebels taking Skyrim gets the entire Empire and Skyrim conquered, it'll be better than sitting idly under the WGC until the AD feels powerful enough to take the land by force.

 

[Saraphim]

Stormcloak, they actually leaned towards FREE SPEECH, and the right to practice whatever religion you damn well please. Also, Ceasar's Legion wasn't acting like themselves (herpaderpa)
I disliked the whole "Well, we rule over you because we say so! and if you disagree... well, you're a traitor then!"

Also, Ulfric Stormcloak doesn't actually CLAIM the throne once you succeed with the rebellion. He expects it perhaps, but the fact that he will comply to whatever decision the "moot" will take is made fairly clear once you conquered Solitude.

I don't comply to the racist nature of the Stormcloak, but it IS from a gruesome war with the Dominion. I can't say I find the old nords to be monsters just because they are abit prejudice against the people that once tortured them...

 

[pffh]

Big quote

Ah but you see the Empire kicked the Altmeri out in the last invasion and only signed the WCG to get some breathing room to rebuild their forces. It was never enforced until Ulfric messed everything up and in fact they were preparing for an invasion into the Summerset isles and will start preparing for that invasion again after the civil war.

And that invasion will be glorious! Manmer battle mages, Orsimer, Nord and Imperial infantry and cavalry armed with Orsimer forged weapons and armour. Led by a Dragonborn whose Thu'um will shatter cities and break the land in two.

 

[Ftaghn To You Too]

Even if Rebels taking Skyrim gets the entire Empire and Skyrim conquered, it'll be better than sitting idly under the WGC until the AD feels powerful enough to take the land by force.

It's rather hard to rise up against your oppressor when you don't exist, having been killed by rebel Dunmer and starvation. Skyrim may have Aldmeri in it, but if the province falls and actually becomes property of the Dominion then nothing will be left. They don't give a fuck, they'll let the province descend into civil war and chaos just to get more humans to die. That's the exact purpose of the Dominion: kill every non-elf so as to attain godhood. If Skyrim falls with no Empire to back it up, it will be utterly destroyed. War with the Empire is still too costly in Altmer lives to risk, so as long as Skyrim remains part of the empire it remains a place with living people.

 

[Phlakes]

The way I see it, if the Stormcloaks win, there's nothing to hold the (Goddamn) Thalmor back. Even if they could potentially keep them out, they would be too weakened by the war. The big picture stays stable with the Empire. And even in Skyrim itself, one of the Jarls, who are probably all fit, can do a fine job leading the region.