The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

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RafaelNegrus

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Rebel_Raven said:
Transistor better happen, I've been looking forward to it ever since I heard about it.

OT: Do I really have to write something on topic? I mean, come on guys look at this mess of a thread. Almost 500 responses in a day, and very little of it seems to be more than flaming.

I think it would be better for all of us if we had these conversations not talking about Anita, because then people seem to agree more, there's more give and take.

All I want are really good games, and I want everyone to have a great time playing those games. It depresses me that there are people who do not enjoy games as much as they could because of problems in the industry (I'm just going to make it more broad and call them issues, but sexism, racism, etc.)

But this doesn't feel like it's better, and I'm not sure if massive flame wars is the way to get to that place.
 

00slash00

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Dec 29, 2009
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Branindain said:
I understand why females would feel somewhat disenfranchised by modern video games (although maybe that's the wrong word, since they were never really "enfranchised" in the first place). I can also understand people who are worried that the political correctness police are going to stamp their jackboots all over their hobby. The history of these kinds of movements suggests that the former group will have their way in the end and the latter's fears will be shown to be overinflated and slowly forgotten as everything calms down.

What I can't understand is how Anita came to be the centrepiece of all this. As the current MLK figure of this crusade she should be inspiring and polarising, and certainly she generates a mountain of forum hits from fans and haters, but to my eye she and her video series are just... meh. Dull. Disappointing. I guess modern internet culture can work itself into a frenzy over just about anything. But I'm hoping a better figurehead comes along.
I think she's awesome and have been a fan of her videos long before she started her kickstarter. However, I will agree that she is not my favorite feminist voice. The reason she is at the center of this is simple, she wanted to make some videos about video games and people responded by threatening to rape and kill her. The reason she is still a significant figure is because she pretty much brought the issue of female representation in games, in to the spotlight (though you could also argue that her opponents deserve more credit for that), in such a way the it became difficult to just ignore. I feel like most people knew for quite some time that women weren't exactly represented in the best way, in video games. But before Anita, I never really heard people talking about it and certainly not as much as they are now. That's why I consider her important, I feel that she kind of got the ball rolling
 

MaximumTheHormone

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Falling said:
Even if this conspiracy mentality is true, the blame doesn't fall on Sarkeesian. Unless you mean to say those commenters simply couldn't help themselves. Like moths to a light, they were unswervingly drawn to their deaths. What a trick she pulled, allowing comments and then disallowing them. If there is nothing to exploit, then opening and closing comments should have had zero effect beyond either no comments (thus showing passive disinterest) or reasonable debate. If you buy the "It was a trap" argument (which I don't), then there needed to be something to catch in the first place and in this case, it wasn't particularly hard. That points back to us than it does to her that we were so easily 'trapped' and bamboozeld.

The reason for the blocks in the first place was the original vitriol. Opening it briefly was like opening the dam to release the floodwaters before closing it back up again. If there were no flood waters, the opening of the dam would have been greeted by the sound of crickets. That was clearly not the case, but the fault does not like with the dam, but with what was behind it.

It's not like she was resorting to sock puppets to manufacture a controversy. I think it is the height of unreasonable creativity to manufacture an explanation that she master-minded and engineered a controversy.
One of the point of the entire post was not to say gamers couldn't help themselves and were trapped but rather that the vitriol she recieved was unfairly declared a backlash by 'gamers' despite the fact she has no evidence to declare her detractors as such.

She actively moderated comments previously to avoid abusive commentors ending up in her comments. Her previous videos had nothing to do with gaming, rather other elements of pop-culture. However she allowed completely unmoderated response to her Kickstarter video (a video specifically related to gaming) and her works were repeatedly spammed on 4chan as well as other particularly 'anti-feminist' sites. Now there is no evidence to say Sarkeesian herself spammed these sites, however she clearly noted that these sites played a large role in the backlash through her several screencaps of the site as part of her 'worst of' compilation of harrassment. When this is considered, it seems completely unfair to consider her backlash the result of angry 'gamers' as not only does she have no evidence to suggest it was led by any gaming community, but she also possesses evidence to the contrary that clearly shows that 'gamers' were not chiefly responsible and rather the backlash was (in the majority) led by 4chan (a community infamous for trolling and raiding).

No gamer (that i have seen) has declared the backlash justified and nearly every one has condemned it, yet it is supposedly the 'gamer community'that led this backlash. If she didn't provoke the raids against her, she has at least framed them in the most disproportionate and skewed light as to present the gamer community in an incredibly bad light.
 

SinisterGehe

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Full Metal Bolshevik said:
Izanagi009 said:
tangoprime said:
Wow, 17 minutes and no comments yet? I wholly believed this place would be World War 5 by now, congratulations. As much as I believe her kickstarter was an unnecessary and dishonest cash grab, the notoriety it earned her is now letting her reach people academically, so that's a good thing.
Yeah, we may disagree on methods and points but I have a feeling that a lot of people do notice that our perception of women in games is not good to say the least. I honestly don't know why there was so much rage at the initial kickstarter when people make jokes and comments about these issues all the time.
Precesly, I personally don't sympathise with her, but she's bringing more good than harm to the industry, if simply by making consumers and developers think about the issue.
This is true, but she falls in to the big trap known as prophet's pothole. She is driving an idea, she is bringing out that idea to light and to people. But she fails to look at the source of the idea closer, the social structures and history behind it and fails also to understand and see other people's views. She time to time even goes as far as to ignore the comments of opposition or just people points out objective flaws.

Why are chick flicks in which hero saves the damsel so popular and books like that are templates for legal money printing. Because people (women/young women) like them. I had a really close female friend who with I sadly broke up the friendship due to a bad decision by her, me trying to help her, she insulting me for trying to help her. Her biggest and grandest fantasy and dream was to be rescued by a caring from trying to commit suicide by drowning.
And my latest social link who takes me around as her social ornament (literally - I go with it, I don't care, I am a gentleman) Likes to have a big and tall man around her. And she plays the Cello and I love that in her.
(She also plays video games and is really in to W-RPGs with burly men as their protagonist)

Anita almost refuses to accept that women like these EXIST and that it is all men's fault. Most of art directors tend to be women nowdays anyway, at least in my studio where I worked all lead somethings were women! And they came up just as big titty concepts as any male would have.
 

Falling_v1legacy

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Nov 3, 2009
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@Tenmar.
Oh that guy. I made it half way through his video last time.

However, I will agree with you in principle that it is important to play the game or at least have watched enough of other people playing it that you have a solid understanding of the game. (For instance, I have never played C&C 4 for myself, but I watched over the should of my brother who was in Beta enough that I could write exactly what is wrong about the game and why I had zero interest in buying it.) My defence of using let's play video clips is premised on having some sort of working knowledge of the game. And as far as story is concerned, I would actually include just sitting down and watching a Let's Play. I feel like I have a pretty good idea of the story of Legend of Link simply after watching Day9 play through it. I couldn't talk about the game controls and handling so much. But I could discuss major story concepts.

As to the clip between 9:10 and 11:47. I have a slightly hard time commentating on that as I lack context myself. I don't remember the original sequence of Sarkeesian's video and I don't know what clips preceded the Deadlight clips because although Repzion says there are other prisoners, he actually didn't show that part. So it's hard to make an accurate comment on it. But I would say based on what he has shown (which should be sufficient given that he was trying to provide the full context), then while he has a point, Sarkeesian's use of the clip is still fair game.

Based on the context Repzion provided, it was a 2 second clip as part of a montage. Already, his argument is an overly strenuous argument where she was quite clearly glancing over several games, but not giving them a full treatment. Were she to focus on Deadlight, I suspect we might hear a more nuanced view, but Repzion is asking for a detailed explanation for every montage and that won't work short of making a 5 hours vod. I think that is an unreasonable explanation and no I don't think that montages should therefore be dropped. There is a specific purpose to the montages, but they should not be interpreted outside of its purpose- we can always just have more videos.

But based on the full context of the clip that Repzion showed, then yes I agree it is more nuanced, but Sarkeesian's use of the clip was still actually fair use and legitimate. Remember Repzion wanted to show context. The context he showed was that the game focused on the stripping of a woman. There might have been other people, but Repzion didn't show it and the extended scene certainly didn't focus on them. So, yes there were more. But the focus was a woman. Now I assume the woman was a major character which would be the reason the 'camera' follows her. But that still plays directly into her hand that these tropes are all over the place- the one point of the montage.

Was it wrong of Deadlight to do so? No. And in many cases individual games have internal logic and justification for what they have and ought not to be changed. But it is a piece of a much larger puzzle and I think Sarkeesian's argument isn't that any one game is at fault so much how endemic it is in virtually every game. Not the individual game's treatement, but its prevalence. The inclusion of the clip from Deadlight isn't to show that Deadlight is this horrible, horrible game and that it needs to be changed. Rather what she is talking about is everywhere. Some to greater degree and others to lesser. From what I see Deadlight is on the lesser end, but it is still a piece (a very small piece) of the puzzle.
 

GabeZhul

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Mar 8, 2012
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Honestly, I don't really care about her. She is just an internet celebrity who is getting her fifteen minutes of fame at the moment. Give it a year or two and she will be nothing but a footnote without changing much in the industry, except maybe creating a bad example on how to milk feminism for profit.

And if we are at that, I consider the whole "sexism" argument in media exactly the same as the "racism" argument. Namely:

-There is a scene with a human beating up another human in a game/movie/comic/etc.. If...
--Man beats up man: Women are not represented in the scene! SEXIST!
--Man beats up woman: It is advocating violence against women! SEXIST!
--Woman beats up man: It shows women to be threatening and dangerous! SEXIST!
--Woman beats up woman: It objectifies women to be cat-fighting eye-candy for the male audience! SEXIST!

The sexism game is exactly the same as the racism game. The only way you can win if you are not playing at all. The moment you bring up "the damsel in distress" or "the male audience" or whatever, you have already lost, because it means that you are already operating on sexist stereotypes instead of working with the actual scenarios and data.
 

Garnet

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I think 'The Most Divisive Woman in Videogames' probably would have been a better title.

Quite frankly I don't like being told what, and what not, to find offensive because I am a woman. That's not just an issue I have exclusively with her, it's an issue I have with a lot of feminist video game coverage.

Plus I think the controversy surrounding her and her methods has made people that perhaps didn't think about feminist issues beforehand a lot more combative towards and closed to the subject.
 

Falling_v1legacy

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Nov 3, 2009
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sjwho2 said:
MaximumTheHormone said:
Falling said:
Even if this conspiracy mentality is true, the blame doesn't fall on Sarkeesian. Unless you mean to say those commenters simply couldn't help themselves. Like moths to a light, they were unswervingly drawn to their deaths. What a trick she pulled, allowing comments and then disallowing them. If there is nothing to exploit, then opening and closing comments should have had zero effect beyond either no comments (thus showing passive disinterest) or reasonable debate. If you buy the "It was a trap" argument (which I don't), then there needed to be something to catch in the first place and in this case, it wasn't particularly hard. That points back to us than it does to her that we were so easily 'trapped' and bamboozeld.

The reason for the blocks in the first place was the original vitriol. Opening it briefly was like opening the dam to release the floodwaters before closing it back up again. If there were no flood waters, the opening of the dam would have been greeted by the sound of crickets. That was clearly not the case, but the fault does not like with the dam, but with what was behind it.

It's not like she was resorting to sock puppets to manufacture a controversy. I think it is the height of unreasonable creativity to manufacture an explanation that she master-minded and engineered a controversy.
One of the point of the entire post was not to say gamers couldn't help themselves and were trapped but rather that the vitriol she recieved was unfairly declared a backlash by 'gamers' despite the fact she has no evidence to declare her detractors as such.

She actively moderated comments previously to avoid abusive commentors ending up in her comments. Her previous videos had nothing to do with gaming, rather other elements of pop-culture. However she allowed completely unmoderated response to her Kickstarter video (a video specifically related to gaming) and her works were repeatedly spammed on 4chan as well as other particularly 'anti-feminist' sites. Now there is no evidence to say Sarkeesian herself spammed these sites, however she clearly noted that these sites played a large role in the backlash through her several screencaps of the site as part of her 'worst of' compilation of harrassment. When this is considered, it seems completely unfair to consider her backlash the result of angry 'gamers' as not only does she have to no evidence to suggest it was led by any gaming community, but she also possesses evidence that clearly shows that 'gamers' were not chiefly responsible and rather the backlash was (in the majority) led by a community infamous for trolling and raiding.

No gamer (that i have seen) has declared the backlash justified and nearly every one has condemned it, yet it is supposedly the 'gamer community'that led this backlash. If she didn't provoke the raids against her, she has at least framed them in the most disproportionate and skewed light as to present the gamer community in an incredibly bad light.
Not only that, the comments were from anon sources. Aka Youtube comments(OH BIG SURPRISE SOMEONE PUT SOMETHING MEAN ON YOUTUBE) or stuff that was probably from 4ch or other sites just to fuck with her.

To take any of the comments she got seriously would be stupidity. I get "death threats" on forums all the time without actually warranting even a normal threat. Who cares, its the internet.

Anita just cries to get attention. No one actually did anything.
So it might be that it wasn't 'the gaming community' that lashed out... although what is that exactly. Given the number of males (and now females) that game, it's not so much the 'gamer community' so much as internet users who are also gamers. It's not like the gaming community is a cohesive entity anyways- I'm a gamer and a moderator on a Starcraft website and I certainly am not flaming her.

But to say "No one actually did anything" is patently not true. Some people did do something even if they weren't the 'gaming community.' It probably speaks more of internet users in general when they have anonymity. But it isn't 'nothing' and she didn't force them to type that stuff.

@MaximumTheHormone
If she did spam 4chan, that is underhanded promotion. But unless it can be proved that was her and not an overzealous fan (or a true troll who wanted to get 4chan on board with this... is it that far fetched to think it was just another 4chan user trolling other 4chan members with a fake account knowing the uprise it would cause?) But unless it can be linked to her, then it is just useless ad hominem with no evidence and not worth bringing up again and again. Also, do the members of 4chan not game? Because if they do, they are also gamers. They might be pariah gamers. Scum of the internet gamers, but gamers nonetheless... unless they don't game.

But I still don't see it as manipulative if she at first had open comments (yes her first videos where pop culture. I remember when the comments were just normal, banal youtube comments), then had moderated comments due to vitriol, closed comments when it became too much, then thought to hell with it, I'll open it up once to collect up all the BS I've been receiving and close it down once she had enough samples.

That's not manipulative, that's not a trick or a trap. That isn't causing hateful comments to appear as she summoned up the worst comments the internet had to offer with her dark powers of feminism. That's simply briefly allowing the floodgates to open to shine a light on the darker results of anonymity on the internet and the sort of backlash one receives from some gamers- even if they are just 4chan gamers.
 

Falling_v1legacy

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Nov 3, 2009
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@Tenmar

I think we are largely on the same page with use of video clips.

I watched the clip Repzion provided starts with a girl and a soldier and it seems to me then, most of the time is devoted to the woman. I'm sure somewhere it showed other people, but the full context he showed, only involves a woman getting stripped by men. To be decontaminated to be sure, but is a forcible stripping by men to a women and that seems to be the central focus (because she is as you say a character strongly connected to the main character.) If the montage was examples of rape, well that is obviously not true. But it is a forcible stripping of a woman by men and so it falls into line as an example (if a lesser example), even if justified by the story of how widespread these story elements are.

Again, I must stress I am at a disadvantage here as I have not played Deadlight and do not remember the original Sarkeesian video in which this was used.

I do understand that a poor treatment of details in one game, would lead you to be suspicious about how she is handling details in another game.
 

Elamdri

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Nov 19, 2009
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I feel like I would love to comment about Anita Sarkeesian, what I like and dislike about her work and how she's affected gaming culture. But every time I look at a picture of her, the first thing to go through my head is "She's pretty cute" and then I feel like I've just invalidated everything I'd want to say about the topic, ever.
 

yeah_so_no

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kurupt87 said:
yeah_so_no said:
kurupt87 said:
As long as games don't end up like TV I don't mind, if they do then books are the last bastion.
Last bastion of what, exactly?
Entertainment aimed at specific groups, rather than mass appeal sanitised bullshit that nobody likes.
You mean: games aimed at just one group, aka pandering just to the group you belong to.

Yeah, well, some of us like a little bit more from our entertainment. Or rather, want it to entertain us, too.

Man, some people sure do get tetchy if you suggest for even ONE SECOND that not everything pander only to them. And I'm not talking about "feminists."
 

wulf3n

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yeah_so_no said:
kurupt87 said:
yeah_so_no said:
kurupt87 said:
As long as games don't end up like TV I don't mind, if they do then books are the last bastion.
Last bastion of what, exactly?
Entertainment aimed at specific groups, rather than mass appeal sanitised bullshit that nobody likes.
You mean: games aimed at just one group, aka pandering just to the group you belong to.

Yeah, well, some of us like a little bit more from our entertainment. Or rather, want it to entertain us, too.

Man, some people sure do get tetchy if you suggest for even ONE SECOND that not everything pander only to them. And I'm not talking about "feminists."
As tetchy as some get when you suggest games shouldn't have to pander to anyone :)