Utter. fucking. shit.stinkychops said:
Where are your 'facts' there?
50% of my department is from outside the 'Western' world.
The Myth of the Angry Feminist
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Where are your 'facts' there?
50% of my department is from outside the 'Western' world.
[small]Judging by the attitudes shown to feminists on this site, they've no reason to be angry at all[/small]
Why are people so threatened by the idea of women's rights groups?
Presumably, everyone here favours the idea of, say, black rights. People who aren't black aren't frightened of this. Straight people don't tend to be worried about rights for gay people. [small]Ok, a number of people are, but they can fuck right off[/small]
Why does women's rights cast such a scary shadow? Where is it written down that people in favour of rights for women are opposed to rights for men?
Yes, alot of feminists are angry at society's treatment of women, just as alot of black and/or gay rights activists are angry at society's treatment of those groups. Are we supposed to condemn people for being angry at injustice?
Why are people so threatened by the idea of women's rights groups?
Presumably, everyone here favours the idea of, say, black rights. People who aren't black aren't frightened of this. Straight people don't tend to be worried about rights for gay people. [small]Ok, a number of people are, but they can fuck right off[/small]
Why does women's rights cast such a scary shadow? Where is it written down that people in favour of rights for women are opposed to rights for men?
Yes, alot of feminists are angry at society's treatment of women, just as alot of black and/or gay rights activists are angry at society's treatment of those groups. Are we supposed to condemn people for being angry at injustice?
It's funny how I keep seeing Germaine Greer doing comedy shows on the BBC.
Considering some of the rather sexist jokes that seem to come up precisely because she is such a well-known feminist, it's...
Well, I don't know. It seems quite strange, but it does show feminists aren't crazy psycho women.
(Though the stories my mother tells shows not everyone that claimed to be a feminist back when it was a big deal necessarily considered their position very carefully. We've almost gotten to the point where it's alright for women to act like men, but at the same time 'feminine' traits are seen as weak, and worthless these days in a lot of cases, which isn't really the right end result.)
Considering some of the rather sexist jokes that seem to come up precisely because she is such a well-known feminist, it's...
Well, I don't know. It seems quite strange, but it does show feminists aren't crazy psycho women.
(Though the stories my mother tells shows not everyone that claimed to be a feminist back when it was a big deal necessarily considered their position very carefully. We've almost gotten to the point where it's alright for women to act like men, but at the same time 'feminine' traits are seen as weak, and worthless these days in a lot of cases, which isn't really the right end result.)
As for the people saying that women who want equal rights or 'feminists' think all men are evil rapists, well most I have been closely involved with in my family and personal life have been absolute ogres and have physically and emotionally abused women. I don't wish to air my dirty laundry but even with this scarred perspective I still don't think this is true of all men.
Feminist is such a loaded term now I don't think anyone can use it without a negative aspect being cast on them. Good on Bill Bailey and the others extolling women's rights.
Feminist is such a loaded term now I don't think anyone can use it without a negative aspect being cast on them. Good on Bill Bailey and the others extolling women's rights.
I don't really see what the point in being a feminist is these days. Both genders already have the same rights. Feminists are fighting for equality? They already have it.
Most feminists do strive for equality, but as a group they do tend to have an infamous vocal minority. When people hate on feminism they're really hating on the "angry feminists" that take it too far - to a point where it becomes female superiority rather than equality, even if they don't realise it.SuperMse said:
There are also few situations, though arguably less, where females do get the upper hand already. I'm not sure how many feminists take that into consideration but if they're truly striving for equality then they have to lose some of their own rights too.
The point is that the feminists that get the most attention are the most annoying people the media could find.
They piss me off, but the normal femininsts not. It's also a problem that loads of people say they're feminist and then proceed to pick their nose, doing nothing.
They piss me off, but the normal femininsts not. It's also a problem that loads of people say they're feminist and then proceed to pick their nose, doing nothing.
Yes, I'm very much a feminist lesbian, but usually don't like to refer myself as such at certain places, such as Internet-forums because of what some people will think I must advocate.
Because I obviously hate men or something.
So I'll try to address the issues without bringing up any isms.
And it must be the people I hang out with, but aren't the women's rights globally kinda what most people have an issue with?
Although, looking at the goverments of most industrial countries, women seem to be underrepresented there, which is obviously women's fault as well. But still, it does indicate something.
Because I obviously hate men or something.
So I'll try to address the issues without bringing up any isms.
And it must be the people I hang out with, but aren't the women's rights globally kinda what most people have an issue with?
Although, looking at the goverments of most industrial countries, women seem to be underrepresented there, which is obviously women's fault as well. But still, it does indicate something.
I'm probably one of the guys whose comments spurred this thread into life. I mean, I guess I do have that view or perception.
I guess the long and short of it is, I feel that as a white male I'm supposed to feel sorry for the conduct of other white males, of ancestors, and ancient history in regards to myself and give special consideration and treatment to Africans, Hispanics, Women, and Native Americans. And personally I'm freaking tired of having to feel guilty for shit I've never taken part in, just because I'm a white male.
I'm more then willing and do treat women equally but, I still see women in the news and in my life that have it both ways. Equal in some areas, specially treated in others.
I guess the long and short of it is, I feel that as a white male I'm supposed to feel sorry for the conduct of other white males, of ancestors, and ancient history in regards to myself and give special consideration and treatment to Africans, Hispanics, Women, and Native Americans. And personally I'm freaking tired of having to feel guilty for shit I've never taken part in, just because I'm a white male.
I'm more then willing and do treat women equally but, I still see women in the news and in my life that have it both ways. Equal in some areas, specially treated in others.
And.. once again I will say, I wasn't talking about liberating men. I was talking about bringing women to have the same rights men do. And I'm going to remind you, that I say this as a globally conscious statement. For women to have the same rights to property and their own life choices, as men do. The problem here is that the term feminist has the word 'female' in it. Yes it has the term female, but ultimately, it's about equal rights. Because if women and men have the same rights, does that not make them equal?stinkychops said:
I'm also confused by what 'male issues' you're referring to. If you would like to give me some examples, please feel free to.
How was it silly? My point was that if you were to ask a rape victim if they would rather be raped or killed, you might find a lot of them wishing they had died. I have sadly had friends with those sentiments.stinkychops said:
I only asked you because you gave statistic claims. I haven't made any statistic claims. And since I don't believe the "less mental illness" and, I haven't seen any stats on that:stinkychops said:
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/SMI_AASR.shtml
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml
So women are more likely to have a serious mental illness than men are. Granted these are statistics for the US, so if you have anything different feel free to show. Also, I don't think you can claim either gender makes 'better lifestyle choices'. I think terrible and good choices are spread evenly throughout both.
I'm glad someone actually understands what they're talking about when it comes to Feminism.
I consider myself a feminist and have studied the theories, so I could counter a lot of people's arguments when it comes to what constitutes as 'Feminism', as they're usually WAY wrong, and highly uninformed.
As Feminism developed, there was a lot of talk about isolating each gender from the other; women didn't want to live within, and conform to, a patriarchal society, and desired their own language which was separate from that of the 'patriarchal language' that men spoke.
I kind of count this to be a little bit crazy but, if people were to actually read about Feminism, instead of assuming that we're all angry, butch, men-hating lesbians, they'd see it's a well-balanced approach to the world.
The ones who want domination and superiority, they aren't feminists, they're extremists and don't uphold the desires and standards set by the true revolutionaries. Just as the minority of Christians are crazy, and not all followers of Islam are terrorists, the minority of crazy feminists give the rest of us a very bad name.
You know it's bad when, telling someone you're a feminist, you have to justify it by saying, 'But not a bad one/extremist!' for fear of prejudice and alienation.
If anyone's interested, read Sexual Politics by Kate Millett, Sexual Anarchy by Elaine Showalter and, if you've read and enjoyed Jane Eyre, The Madwoman in the Attic by Gilbert and Gubar.
Thank you, OP, for actually knowing what you're talking about.
I consider myself a feminist and have studied the theories, so I could counter a lot of people's arguments when it comes to what constitutes as 'Feminism', as they're usually WAY wrong, and highly uninformed.
As Feminism developed, there was a lot of talk about isolating each gender from the other; women didn't want to live within, and conform to, a patriarchal society, and desired their own language which was separate from that of the 'patriarchal language' that men spoke.
I kind of count this to be a little bit crazy but, if people were to actually read about Feminism, instead of assuming that we're all angry, butch, men-hating lesbians, they'd see it's a well-balanced approach to the world.
The ones who want domination and superiority, they aren't feminists, they're extremists and don't uphold the desires and standards set by the true revolutionaries. Just as the minority of Christians are crazy, and not all followers of Islam are terrorists, the minority of crazy feminists give the rest of us a very bad name.
You know it's bad when, telling someone you're a feminist, you have to justify it by saying, 'But not a bad one/extremist!' for fear of prejudice and alienation.
If anyone's interested, read Sexual Politics by Kate Millett, Sexual Anarchy by Elaine Showalter and, if you've read and enjoyed Jane Eyre, The Madwoman in the Attic by Gilbert and Gubar.
Thank you, OP, for actually knowing what you're talking about.
Why does it automatically lower the standards for women to be involved? Women never used to be police yet now they are very successful at it, also in the fire service and the military areas previously seen as 'male'. Your casual sexism is kind of offensive.[/quote]Doth said:
Have you considered that that is not in fact his point and that he is instead arguing that such policies can privilege gender over credentials? If they need to hire X number of women then it is possible for a woman to be hired over more highly qualified candidates based on her gender. The validity of this argument can be debated (personally, I think that such programs were necessary, but that they are nearing the end of their usefulness in their current form). This argument is hardly "casual sexism" as it makes no claim that women are inherently less able, just that such preferential treatment interferes in meritocracy. It is always interesting to note that the less glamorous traditionally male jobs have remained male dominated without anyone complaining. As you mentioned the military, I would like to point out that the US military still requires quite a few dangerous services of men from which women are disbarred.
Actually that's exactly what he was saying. to have women in certain profession he says they have to lower the standards which directly implies that they are less able. Oh and women are disbarred from danagerous activities in the military not becuase they aren't capable becuase they aren't allowed to. If they were perhaps they could be just as capable as men.OtherSideofSky said:
I think you are confusing tired stereotype with vocal minority,the angry, crazy women who want more rights than men are alive and well. I work at a university and for international womens day a group calling themselve the "SCUM initiative", thats Society for Cutting Up Men by the way. I dont know any woman who arent for equality but i know a lot who wouldnt touch femenism with a 10 foot pole because of the belief that femenists are irrational man haters, and being handed a pamphlet at the university center essentually telling me how priveleged i am to be a man and threatening violence if they dont get their way supports this. Again, this is a vocal minority and they shouldnt be speaking for all women, but if feminists were for equality they should be fighting to get rid of programs that demand a certain percent of women in male dominated fields and lobby for some sort of system of anonymity when applying, men are regected all the time from our engineering programs while we usually have 5-10 vacancies for women only.
The problem is that i support equality but i dont buy what the vocal femenists are selling, I dont disagree that sexual harassment happens in the workplace, but as a "breeding technician" who works in a lab with 7 women i can honestly say they arent the ones being harassed, not even Dr. Wang. Im just expected to appreceate it, and you probably wont see many femenist out there suggesting that women shouldnt be propositioning men in the workplace for sex unless they think that woman is making them look bad.
Men make up much higher percentages of the suicide rates, look it up in your area, you may be surprised.
Women often work in better conditions than men, because of issues calle the "pink ghetto" where men and women with equal levels of training are payed different salaries because, they are in fact, working different jobs. Now retail companies who let managment decide pay scale hae been found to pay women less, they can get sued for it, whereas if i dont make as much because i look young im on my own.
you very blatantly assert that he is wrong and needs to show statistics, yet you hold yourself to a higher standard thinking you dont have to.
The problem is that i support equality but i dont buy what the vocal femenists are selling, I dont disagree that sexual harassment happens in the workplace, but as a "breeding technician" who works in a lab with 7 women i can honestly say they arent the ones being harassed, not even Dr. Wang. Im just expected to appreceate it, and you probably wont see many femenist out there suggesting that women shouldnt be propositioning men in the workplace for sex unless they think that woman is making them look bad.
actually most of that is pretty accurate if a little blunt, as far as first world countries go. Women make up %10 of homless or less, and have more safe shelters to go to in the event that they are less likely to be injured at work, less likely to be victims of violent crime, and most studies across first world nations say are less likely to be the victims of domestic violence too.evilthecat said:
Men make up much higher percentages of the suicide rates, look it up in your area, you may be surprised.
Women often work in better conditions than men, because of issues calle the "pink ghetto" where men and women with equal levels of training are payed different salaries because, they are in fact, working different jobs. Now retail companies who let managment decide pay scale hae been found to pay women less, they can get sued for it, whereas if i dont make as much because i look young im on my own.
you very blatantly assert that he is wrong and needs to show statistics, yet you hold yourself to a higher standard thinking you dont have to.
