The Myth of the Angry Feminist

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Smooth Operator

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Ya equality is the idea of feminism, but people tend to quickly push the boat over into sexism(gender superiority), it is often claimed by women that not only should the rights be equal but women should get more... and that's where most of the misconceptions about the term come from, and the name really doesn't help out.
 

mr_rubino

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Eico said:
Feminists are, by definition, sexist extremists.

Last I checked, we were all human. Wanna make a big deal about your gender and act as if anyone but you cares? Go ahead. Free (not really) world. I'll be over there, not giving a damn about what someone's chromozones look like.
"It haz 'fem' in it! Seckzist!1!1 It should be called 'equalopportunityforallsexesism'!"
God, this is like trying to argue with children sometimes. Sometimes words mean things, no matter how much you want to play the etymology game to try to make them mean something else.
(You know the etymology game, don't you? "Homophobia, from the Greek words homos and phobos, actually secretly means fear of sameness! I'm thus not a bigot. QED.")
 

Thaluikhain

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ziggydk said:
how many women have died in war? or broken their back in a mine, and so on?
An awful lot of women die in wars, they just aren't part of the military, they are booty.

Women have suffered in horrendous working conditions (IIRC, in Britain, the first regulation for safe working practices came about due to horrific working conditions for women in a factory. White phosphorous...nuff said.)

Nowdays, of course, things have massively improved. You'll notice, though, how the men in the more dangerous professions don't tend to be the ones ensuring men are paid more (on average) than women, it's the ones with nice safe desk jobs that tend to do that.
 

moretimethansense

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SuperMse said:
Alright, guys, I was just looking at this thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.270981-Poll-Do-you-consider-yourself-a-feminist], and I'm about to go Super Saiyan as a result. There are tons of people questioning the OP's definition of feminism and further perpetrating that feminists are angry, crazy women who want more rights than men.

This is contradictory to the core values of feminism. Feminism, at a basic level, is and has always been about EQUALITY between men and women. It was prompted by women feeling left out when men had more rights than them- i.e. right to vote, right to own property, right to be an individual citizen as a daughter or in marriage, etc. Just read Mary Wollstonecraft's A Vindication of the Rights of Women and you'll know what I'm talking about. But another aspect of feminism, especially more recently, has been the liberation of men from gender expectations as well as pushing for equal rights for any group that is departmentalized against, with the logic that if they are not helped, then women will not receive aid either. In this way, it has taken a much more humanist approach. Every single feminist I have met, and I have met a few unsavory feminists, has gone by this philosophy, and has never believed that women should have more rights than men. Do you really have so much daily interaction with feminists that you can claim otherwise, or just a few flimsy anecdotes? Have you ever actually studied feminist theory? Please stop going by a tired old stereotype perpetrated by the media and actually look at the feminist movement as a whole before you judge it. At least give it the courtesy of a Google search [http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Feminism].
It's no myth, I've met a few that genuinly believe that women deserve more rights than men, though even fewer would realise this.
For example some claim they stand for equality yet advocate striking a man if he is offensive, if they believed that men should do the same thay would in fact be gunning for equality, albeit an equality based on needless abuse.

Secondly, feminism is NOT about equality, it's about equal rights for women, there is a world of difference, with many feminists it would be more accurate to label them as equalists.
 

awesomeClaw

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Feminism was neccesary back in the time where women were generally treated worse. It is still neccesary in countries where women are treated poorly.

But you see, Feminism was for WOMEN´S equality. But now, where women are pretty much equal, we need equalists, not Feminists. Because these days, both genders don´t have 100% equality. (Which they will probably never have)
 

Terminal Blue

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Right.. since this thread is unintentionally (I hope) trolling me, I'm just going to say my piece and leave.

Feminism isn't a movement. It doesn't have preset goals. You could argue maybe that in the 60s and 70s it did, but generally those goals were set by the white, heterosexual middle class women who formed the majority. That changed very radically in the last few decades.

Feminism is a way of looking at gender relations in great detail, not just women in fact, plenty of feminists (R.W. Connell, for example) have concerned themselves largely or even completely with men.

Feminism takes as its standpoint that gender and gender relations are not fixed. That women do not by definition pop out of the womb as 'natural' little girls who feel submissive to men and want to do housework, have babies not do work or anything manly, or likewise that men do not pop out of the womb as domineering sexually aggressive people with no emotions except anger and a desire for constant fucking. Fundamentally, feminism is the acknowledgement that some parts of gendered behaviour are not natural, and that we as a society can choose to change them.

Where people actually go from that point can be radically different, and it depends very much on where people look. However, if you're looking at the way people treat each other on the grounds of gender (both politically and also personally - although Carol Hanisch would say there's no difference and I'd probably agree) and you don't think those gender relations are natural, and you have the desire to change something. You're a feminist.

Actually, that makes half the people complaining about how 'men are always seen as sex offenders' feminists, and it's true. 'Feminist' academia (womens studies and gender studies) got to that conclusion a long time before you. Most feminists don't actually hold the social position of men in very high regard, in fact there's a widespread recognition that it can be pretty fucking horrible. But that doesn't change the fact that men tend to benefit from it in a wide range of ways, particularly in terms of exercising power over women.

As if it's not incredibly obvious there's no overarching feminist movement based on shared ideals, I should point out that feminists disagree with each other all the time. Heck, go read Gender Trouble, one of the most popular and famous feminist books of today opens by slagging off virtually every other feminist who has ever lived. It's still a feminist book, and a well-loved one at that.
 

Verlander

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There's no angry "feminist", "OAP", "African" or anything. Those are groups of people that are linked by potentially only one similarity, and that in no way defines them.

Similarly, they aren't all innocent either, for the same reason
 

Lord_Ascendant

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Agreed, OP.

There also needs to be the understanding that men can be feminists too.

It isn't a female-only thing.
 

BRex21

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Mr.K. said:
Ya equality is the idea of feminism, but people tend to quickly push the boat over into sexism(gender superiority), it is often claimed by women that not only should the rights be equal but women should get more... and that's where most of the misconceptions about the term come from, and the name really doesn't help out.
three words, Sweedish Man Tax. Men have to pay a tax because they abuse women, yet women dont have to pay any tax if they want the privelage to physically assault men.
 

ramboondiea

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you see a lot of people will base their notion on something using what they have personally seen/heard/experiences, and unfortunatly radical feminists are the far more vocal, as such thats how people will see them.
however this is not true of everyone, the vast majority of 'feminists' i have met are either radicals or advocating female supremacy, (all of my female lectures at uni are radical whether they admit it or not).
i have studied feminist theories, and i have had to study them through one of these biased lecturers. an example is one of my lecturers talking about rape and talked for about anhour using the term man instead of rapist, then flimsily excusing her mistake at the end. this cant of act can colour a persons perspectives,
i dont support feminism, largely because this would also be condoning those radicals. i do however support the abolishment of discrimination, but only were it is appropriate
 

tahrey

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Meh. I suppose it's like Anarchy, which was - and supposedly still is - a movement for abolition of centralised government and villages etc to self-govern a whole lot more, but has generally just been taken over by shitwits who want to smash things up in it's name.

The thread author made it fairly clear what they were on about, and I had no trouble sticking with it in my own previous reply to that thread. I understood where they were coming from, and am in fact a bit baffled by the assumption of a hardline butch lebian mancrusher image to it. I thought most of those had died out now. Heck, even Germaine Greer's mellowed a hell of a lot. Still not putting up with any crap, but seems a lot less ready to take your face off.
 

mr_rubino

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BRex21 said:
Mr.K. said:
Ya equality is the idea of feminism, but people tend to quickly push the boat over into sexism(gender superiority), it is often claimed by women that not only should the rights be equal but women should get more... and that's where most of the misconceptions about the term come from, and the name really doesn't help out.
three words, Sweedish Man Tax. Men have to pay a tax because they abuse women, yet women dont have to pay any tax if they want the privelage to physically assault men.
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that's not really a thing.

Double check: Well it is a thing, at least, as in it was proposed at one time (2005) by a self-proclaimed leader of a nonexistent feminist political party. The rationalization, while still silly, appears to be exactly nothing like how you described. The way you wrote it made it sound like this was actually something that existed.

Is this just another "I heard that one time a feminist did this" anecdote?
 

spartandude

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Most feminists are actually alright, they want eaquality between the sexes and i support that (as a man)
however there are deffinately a small minority who are also the most vocal who want to be in a better position. while this is a small group it is the most vocal and people do tend to hear the negative more than positive, hence us men hear it alot more and it pisses us off
there is also a smakk but growing group of young women who claim to be feminists but rather than doing anything they just complain which also helps to annoy us and create the image of the angry feminist
 

mr_rubino

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tahrey said:
Meh. I suppose it's like Anarchy, which was - and supposedly still is - a movement for abolition of centralised government and villages etc to self-govern a whole lot more, but has generally just been taken over by shitwits who want to smash things up in it's name.

The thread author made it fairly clear what they were on about, and I had no trouble sticking with it in my own previous reply to that thread. I understood where they were coming from, and am in fact a bit baffled by the assumption of a hardline butch lebian mancrusher image to it. I thought most of those had died out now. Heck, even Germaine Greer's mellowed a hell of a lot. Still not putting up with any crap, but seems a lot less ready to take your face off.
As long as one exists, it is true by order of consensus reality. We have opinion pieces and Youtube videos to prove it. Studies and statistics are scary, because they sometimes don't say what we want them to say based on our experience with a random woman at the office/store that one time.
 

robincb

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evilthecat said:
Actually, there are as many 'types' of feminism as there are feminists. How many have you met?
This. This is not an argument, it's a cryptic statement without true meaning, it's like saying "Oh there are lots of ice cream flavors!"

Well that doesn't tell me much now does it? at least bring an actual argument to the party instead of a baseless claim!

evilthecat said:
You really have no idea do you?

Go study an arts, humanities subject or a social science, and then come back when you've earned the right to genuinely assess the feminist contribution to scholarship in those areas.
Truly, truly sorry..... but You are wrong does not classify as an argument unless you explain why he is wrong. so enlighten me oh great noble sir/madam, what is it that qualifies you to make this kind of statement?
 

bruunwald

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Let me start by saying that I am a liberal man who believes in equal rights for all, was raised primarily by women (my mother and a couple of very dedicated aunts) due to almost total absence of my father, and have lived my whole life in a progressive place (SF Bay Area), and fraternize with progressive people. Women have long been my heroes.

It is from that perspective that I say to you now, that while generalizations are ridiculous, and certainly there are all sorts of people in the world, including any myriad of Feminists, with many degrees of dedication and various philosophies in-between; the number of cliche spouting, angst-ridden, men-hating, frothing-at-the-mouth ball busters I have had to deal with has far exceeded my fair share.

Sorry, much as I would like to be the first in line to refute any and all stereotypes, I know three women who I could put you in a room with, and an hour later you would walk away half-convinced that every law, every school of thought devised by a male, every work of art, movie, popular song, television show, book and word uttered over the past twenty centuries was a direct attack against the sanctity of the Holy Vagina and a declaration of eternal slavery for every woman, everywhere for all time, and that the world would be better off if all sperm were frozen and all men subsequently eliminated. And I can tell you about the time they weren't even worried about the niceties of excluding present company (me!).

It's wrong of people in public discourse to perpetuate the myth that all Feminists are like this. But even as a liberal man in a liberal place, I have to be honest and tell you straight off that I know people who are exactly like this, and they are frequent enough to be encountered. I understand they are just over-passionate people, who like any obsessed nerd (because they all are nerds in my experience - I am too!) can go too far when expounding upon their favorite topic and can find themselves very upset over grudges held years after whatever sleight created their unhappiness. But as with the one fat gamer who stinks up the table and created the stereotype the rest of us now have to live down, so too does the existence of a few ball busters create a stereotype that Feminists must live down. It's just what happens when public discourse is interrupted by a militant-minded person.

My advice? As with all of us, present a better face for your cause than the loudmouths who share it with you, and try to remain more active and higher profile than they.
 

Nickolai77

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I simply believe in the moral and legal equality of men and women- simple as. If that makes me a feminist or if it doesn't make me a feminist then i don't care- all i care about is gender equality.
 

RedMagic

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There's so many things (both negative and positive) associated with the word feminist that it really makes my head spin.

I think the only way feminism will continue to be relevant is if it helps people acknowledge the fact that when you treat one member of sex like crap, then it'll likely spill over to the other sex and make most people's lives miserable.