The New York Times Criticizes The Last of Us for Having a Male Protagonist

[Snazzymathematics]

How about we actually talk about sexism in games (Like publishers not backing a game because you play as a female)

What's wrong with not backing something that you believe won't sell?

There's nothing wrong with not backing something because they don't believe it won't sell, it's the fact that there's publishers not backing games because you play as a female. Dontnod Entertainment, the developers of Remember Me, had publishers tell them that their game won't sell because you play as a female protagonist and told them you have to have a male lead. That's sexism, not this nitpicky bullshit where people claim a game is sexist because of a female dying, disregarding the reason why she had to die. I.E. A certain person claiming borderlands 2 was sexist because you had to kill a female character, and said person ignoring the fact that your character had no choice. It was either kill her or give up.

 

[generals3]

I think its only deserving of the criticism because we don't have many games with female protagonists - ESPECIALLY female protagonists that aren't sex-goddesses.

I think the Last of Us is a step in the right direction. At no point in the game does it really feel like Ellie needs Joel (except for a few, physically demanding tasks that would have been tough for a 14 yr old of any gender to accomplish, never mind Ellie). Instead, it often feels as though Joel is in need of Ellie. Ellie is the stronger of the two, she isn't the damsel in distress, Joel is the wayward knight who lost his way, etc. etc. etc. For what the Last of Us is, it is near revolutionary to the gaming industry.

And while its a step in the right direction, I can't help but wonder what it would have been like had it been a game about a mother and a daughter, or a woman guiding a young man. We simply need more games staring women.

Maybe there will be a sequel starring Ellie?

You know what actually bugs my mind. What's all this "it's a step in the right direction" thing? Why does a woman need to be super mega empowered in a game? Since when are games supposed to be about creating super-women role models? Why is it "wrong" for a woman to be a DiD (which is what is implied by your use of "a step in the right direction"). Heck you even mention how the man is kinda the "loser" of the two, am I suppose to think it's a good thing men are portrayed as "weak" (in a mental way in this case) but women are supposed to be super empowered?

How would you feel if I said a game empowering men but disempowering women was a step in the right direction? Because you're doing the same but just with the genders swapped.

 

[generals3]

There's nothing wrong with not backing something because they don't believe it won't sell, it's the fact that there's publishers not backing games because you play as a female. Dontnod Entertainment, the developers of Remember Me, had publishers tell them that their game won't sell because you play as a female protagonist and told them you have to have a male lead. That's sexism, not this nitpicky bullshit where people claim a game is sexist because of a female dying, disregarding the reason why she had to die. I.E. A certain person claiming borderlands 2 was sexist because you had to kill a female character, and said person ignoring the fact that your character had no choice. It was either kill her or give up.

That's not sexism. I'm sorry. That's capitalism. The discrimination is based on expected sales not gender. They ask for male protagonists for monetary reasons. I really doubt publishers just hate pixelized vaginas.

 

[Funyahns]

A lot of what you are saying is self fulfilling marketing though. If you get 10 guys under twenty and that is your basis for questions then you are not getting a full perspective. You know how CoD sells 10 million copies? Its more than just 18 year old guys playing it. A lot of girls play too. The idea should be to diverse and sell to an many as possible. Besides you are talking about capitalism its kind of amusing, considering how poorly so many games do now. Why is the marketing not doing more? After all you are getting the majority of them with some dude holding a weapon in a threatening way. All those guys in the survey said that they love that?

 

[generals3]

It's not about empowering women. And I'm not saying The Last of Us should be different. It's great for what it is. But is it wrong to want a game with a strong female lead?

I never said I want every game to change into this equal opportunist crap. I completely agree with you that feminists are willing to jump on anything that has a positive male in charge as though it somehow is holding us back (as though only women can be in charge and men should be nothing but hoodlums) and that this is wrong. There's nothing wrong with Mario, for example, and many of the contexts which feminists complain about male leads is completely miss placed. Uncharted, for example, has some excellent female characters, but at the end of the day they made a game about a guy who shoots an ungodly number of people in the face and doesn't bat an eye. And that's fine. It's great even. Uncharted is one of my fav series.

I also NEVER advocated that the roles should be "reversed", with a weak man and a strong woman. If that was all I wanted, I'd be content with the Last of Us because, as I've stated, the strongest character is Ellie, not Joel, and it is Joel who relies on Ellie for inner strength. Nevertheless, that isn't what interests me. Regardless of what role Ellie plays in the game, she is not the character the player uses. And this is absolutely fine. But it would be WONDERFUL if we could have a game with a strong female lead a la Ellie. We don't have many and I want more. I think when we're approached with criticism like the one given by New York Times, many gamers don't realize that this is what they're asking for. It's not that playing as a guy is wrong, it's that playing as a woman is equally awesome, so why not make more games with female protagonists?

Thanks for the clarification. I obviously misunderstood your point. There is obviously nothing wrong with wanting a female lead (it's simple the use of "a step in the right direction" which kind of put me on the wrong track). This said "equally awesome" isn't true for everyone. There are actually quite a few people who prefer playing as their own gender and considering males dominated this segment having a female lead is more likely to alienate more potential costumers as a male lead. And since every game want to make as much as money as they can...

 

[Snazzymathematics]

There's nothing wrong with not backing something because they don't believe it won't sell, it's the fact that there's publishers not backing games because you play as a female. Dontnod Entertainment, the developers of Remember Me, had publishers tell them that their game won't sell because you play as a female protagonist and told them you have to have a male lead. That's sexism, not this nitpicky bullshit where people claim a game is sexist because of a female dying, disregarding the reason why she had to die. I.E. A certain person claiming borderlands 2 was sexist because you had to kill a female character, and said person ignoring the fact that your character had no choice. It was either kill her or give up.

You wouldn't call me a sexist because i hire a more qualified man instead of a woman would you?

No, I wouldn't. Hiring a man because he's more qualified doesn't make you sexist, it means you chose to hire someone because they're a better worker. It's still sexist that they won't back a game simply because you play as a woman and in this case there wasn't a man who was better. There wasn't a choice to pick which gender you'd prefer to play as. And, instead of playing as a women, you played as man that said the exact same things your female character says, and other NPCs react to your character the same way, and he does the exact same things, then what is the difference? And how would he be better? And I'm pretty sure it's discrimination on both expected sales and gender.

 

[sky14kemea]

Oh come one. Are they going to complain about every game with a male protagonist now?

The females in The Last Of Us aren't that bad from my point of view. From what I've seen so far, Tess is pretty bad-ass. If anything she's more ballsy than Joel.

You need to be the older figure in this because a 14-year old girl with no experience 'cept a tiny bit of military school isn't going to go around shooting and strangling zombies/soldiers around twice her body weight easily. I know there's a lot of sneak involved, but sometimes there are bits where you just have to fight through, and making some adrenaline-pumped psycho killer girl isn't going to help feminism.

 

[generals3]

A lot of what you are saying is self fulfilling marketing though. If you get 10 guys under twenty and that is your basis for questions then you are not getting a full perspective. You know how CoD sells 10 million copies? Its more than just 18 year old guys playing it. A lot of girls play too. The idea should be to diverse and sell to an many as possible. Besides you are talking about capitalism its kind of amusing, considering how poorly so many games do now. Why is the marketing not doing more? After all you are getting the majority of them with some dude holding a weapon in a threatening way. All those guys in the survey said that they love that?

Let me quote myself:
"But what would be the use of the broader perspective? You can't please everyone and trying to do so is a great way to displease everyone.
And the idea it's self fulfilling is just a silly notion which popped up to justify making an issue out of a non-issue. You don't see people argue romantic novels are read by women just because they are aimed at them, same for lipstick and so on."


Games aren't doing poorly at all. The costs are just so absurdly high they have to be selling at awesome rates to make profits. A game can only cater to so many people... Or are devs supposed to find a way to sell CoD to Wii Fit fans and Sim City addicts?

 

[generals3]

Oh I completely agree with you. I'm a hardcore capitalist, and this is part of the reason why I don't have a problem with so many male leads.

But, as a capitalist, it is shockingly evident to me that there is an entire niche market that is untapped because of the lack of focus on both female characters AND designing games with women in mind instead of men.

But that isn't entirely true now is it? Not only are there many games aimed at women in different segments but even in this typical segment they try to diversify and tap on the niche. That's why some games allow people to chose the gender of their character (eg: Mass Effect) or have a female lead (Tomb Raider, arguably the older ones were aimed at men who liked T&A but the new one seemed more women-friendly). They are simply rare, but that's kind of what should be expected from a niche.

 

[bug_of_war]

That reviewer is just an attention seeking hipster if you ask me.

I approve of this statement.

OT:I haven't played the game, I've watched a good deal of gameplay of it though and it looks like he's just making loud noise over nothing. He tries to play it cool by being all, "It does some things better than any other game I've played. But I found it hard to get past what it embraces with a depressing sameness, particularly its handling of its female characters." but instead of elaborating on the things it does better he goes on to talk about sexism in games and how this game follows a trope that allows sexism. He even admits to watching Anita Sarkeesian's recent videos which seem to put aside emotions and scale it into black and white, "Women being used to give a man a goal is sexism" when most of the time the women in the game have a relation to the male protagonist and it would be pretty shallow of the character to be like, "Eh...Girlfriend got kidnapped, just gonna sit around and do nothing". There's a HUGE difference between sexism and a story that plays on our human emotions, and from what I've seen in The Last of Us there's very little to practically no evidence of sexism. Hell, it's the first game to portray a gay character with out him being a stereotype, I'm surprised that THAT hasn't been more spoken about.

 

[fletch_talon]

If Joel's character had been female:
"And of course the main character had to be a woman, because who else has the maternal instincts to raise a young girl in a post apocalyptic setting. It just goes to show that even in an action packed game like this, the games industry can't allow women to be badass without attributing it to maternal instinct."

If Joel had been female and Ellie was male:
"And of course despite having a badass female "main" character, the creators of the game just could resist taking the spotlight from her and putting it on the male character. Will the games industry ever be able to get over its clear and obvious bias against women."

If fem-Joel had been kicking all kinds of ass:
"And of course the female main character is just another example of a man. She might have boobs and other lady parts, but that's the only difference. When will the games industry learn that a good female character is not just a man in a skirt."

If fem-Joel had been showing any behaviour deemed "feminine":
"And of course they couldn't just let her be an awesome badass hero like the guys we see in every other game. No. She has to be the "mother" of the game. When will the games industry learn that what makes a good female character is no different to what makes a good male character."

 

[Zhukov]

Man, you people sure are getting angry over this.

Is it because you can't stand someone criticising a really good game? Or because you're worried that the big bad hairy feminists are going to take your brooding badass bros away? Or because any criticism of video games by an outsider is seen as a personal attack?

All the article is saying is that it's kind of a shame that even a game of the calibre of The Last of Us was still unable to break from the more depressing trends of the industry.

Yes, it's a bit of a stretch and yes, it's often not much fun listening to someone grinding their axe, but I for one am glad it is being said, even if I don't entirely agree.

 

[Zeckt]

If Joel's character had been female:
"And of course the main character had to be a woman, because who else has the maternal instincts to raise a young girl in a post apocalyptic setting. It just goes to show that even in an action packed game like this, the games industry can't allow women to be badass without attributing it to maternal instinct."

If Joel had been female and Ellie was male:
"And of course despite having a badass female "main" character, the creators of the game just could resist taking the spotlight from her and putting it on the male character. Will the games industry ever be able to get over its clear and obvious bias against women."

If fem-Joel had been kicking all kinds of ass:
"And of course the female main character is just another example of a man. She might have boobs and other lady parts, but that's the only difference. When will the games industry learn that a good female character is not just a man in a skirt."

If fem-Joel had been showing any behaviour deemed "feminine":
"And of course they couldn't just let her be an awesome badass hero like the guys we see in every other game. No. She has to be the "mother" of the game. When will the games industry learn that what makes a good female character is no different to what makes a good male character."

I have to admit that you won the topic. When there's no issue in the game people create them, and then we wonder why females can't have bigger roles in games. The reason? people like this supposed "reviewer."

Why is it being said when it is so one sided and instead made into the focus of the review, Zhukov? I understand the point your trying to make but this is the wrong way to do it.

 

[Wyvern65]

I thought I was playing TLoU, until my friend pointed out I was just playing Ico with the curtains shut.

Okay, that's twice you've made me literally laugh out loud on this page. Stop, or they'll revoke my misanthropy card.


OT: I honestly didn't have any real beefs with the criticism of the video game industry as a whole, but you don't do that in a review of a game containing one of the better written female characters we've seen. You do it in an OP ED.

If you smack the game devs harder when they get something /right/ - well you're kind of fighting against the progress you claim to want, aren't you?

 

[ATRAYA]

What difference does it make what gender your protagonist is? Other than complementary genitals, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
Seriously, people have to stop getting so hung up on this kind of crap.

 

[Amyrlyn]

If the whiners at the NYT (or anywhere else for that matter), have an issue with male protagonists in video games they can create games with female protagonists and try to sell them. They may find themselves in trouble there as THE #1 demographic making up the customer base of the video game industry happens to be male. The gaming industry creates games to cater to male tastes in gaming, and always will, as long as it is men who make up the largest segment of its consumer base. Only an idiot creates a product that its costumers do not want.

Signed

Life-long female gamer

 

[Falcon Stormvoice]

But what kind of games do most women over 30 play? Real games, or Facebook games? Because we know the social "game" developers are targeting older women as their demographic.

Anyway, Joel is a fantastic character. The fact that he's a musclebound male makes his patheticness at the end of the game even more poignant. He doesn't need to be any different to suit an agenda.