The Problem with Piracy...

[UkibyTheMaid]

Speaking as someone who knows a bit about the industry, I'll give you some background.

The mainstream games you see (for example, Bioshock) cost an average of twenty to thirty million dollars to create. This is the cost that the developers pay. The publishers of the games, with whom the developers have a contract, usually give the devs of such things an advance of a few million. This is a loan.

Using this loan, venture capital (more loans) and proper loans from banks, the developers put the game together and turn it over to the publisher to ship it when it's done. All of these loans have to be paid back through royalties which are contracted payments from the publisher to the developer based directly on the copies sold. Once the loans are paid, the developer gets the royalties as profits and/or invests them to help pay for the next game.

So we have a fact: Every copy of the game sold means money to pay off loans or put in the pockets of the people who made the game. If someone doesn't buy the game, but downloads and plays it anyway, the developers don't get any money from that copy.

Argue philosophy or your "rights" all you want, these are the facts. You'll have to determine for yourself whether it is morally acceptable for you to benefit from someone else's work without compensating them.

One thing I was always curious about:

When you buy anything 'entertainment' related, that has rights and all, on a department store, for example, how exactly the money goes to the people who owns the rights? I never really 'got' how that works.

And I sound incredibly dumb by not knowing, right?

 

[Seldon2639]

Hey, whatever you gotta tell yourself. You could always, you know, get a better job to subsidize your expensive habits. Or get better at budgeting the money you have. Don't claim that piracy is your only logical option...you're just greedy and want more stuff for less money.

I can't help but feel you misunderstood my point.

The thing is, it's impossible to justify buying games once you have the means to get them for free. Try this: get a game for your birthday, then save up to buy it again. It's quite hard to do.

The fact that you, acting entirely as a selfish rational actor, can see nothing wrong with pirating a game only means it's unjustifiable if you exclude all factors aside from "what is best for me individually as a consumer". You're excluding any input into the system aside from money that you and only you spend.

It'd be difficult to justify working, too, if I could get money for nothing (and my chicks for free), but that's not a proper way to analyze the situation. Read up on Kant, if you'd like, and the entire concept of the Categorical Imperative.

But, you're also being a bit of a hypocrite. You accept that a consumer should act entirely selfishly, but I'd bet dimes to dollars that when a games company puts DRM protection into their products, you're also shouting about how difficult that makes the game to deal with.

For every person who says "god, I hate Sony for their DRM", don't blame Sony. They're responding (entirely rationally) to the very problem Gilbert lists. Instead, blame Gilbert. He has prioritized his ability to play a game for free over the usability of the game for all.

 

[DeadlyYellow]

One thing I was always curious about:

When you buy anything 'entertainment' related, that has rights and all, on a department store, for example, how exactly the money goes to the people who owns the rights? I never really 'got' how that works.

And I sound incredibly dumb by not knowing, right?

It is a confusing idea. Most I can make out of it is they are obtained through numerous systems of distribution: one company 'pays' to buy a number of copies to sell at a marked-up price. When one is sold, the mark-up goes to the main company while the initial cost gets back to the original distributor.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

For every person who says "god, I hate Sony for their DRM", don't blame Sony. They're responding (entirely rationally) to the very problem Gilbert lists. Instead, blame Gilbert. He has prioritized his ability to play a game for free over the usability of the game for all.

If by 'Gilbert' you mean 'everybody like Gilbert' then I wholeheartedly accept your views. And Kant... Emmanuel Kant? We did something about him in my Philosophy class... the reclusive chap with the braces right?

Well, I've forgotten everything I learnt about the Categorical Imperative (I do remember learning it) so maybe I should look into it a bit more...

 

[tofulove]

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you have a screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of your post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

 

[tofulove]

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of you're post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

well all of your post is fine other than i have to accept the view point you have. the fact of the matter is, no matter how many excuses you use to justify steeling, its steeling, and no matter how you look at it steeling is wrong, your taking some thing you did not earn, now if you said im a thief that's what i do and i don't care if you think its wrong. than i cant argue with you, cause you just said what you are and not going change cause some smuck on the internet said your a bad boy/girl. but your not doing that, your saying its ok to steel cause other people steel and society as a hole should accept my life style of steeling, next your going to say society should also accept serial murders cause that's there life style.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

every thing

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of you're post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

well all of your post is fine other than i have to accept the view point you have. the fact of the matter is, no matter how many excuses you use to justify steeling, its steeling, and no matter how you look at it steeling is wrong, your taking some thing you did not earn, now if you said im a thief that's what i do and i don't care if you think its wrong. than i cant argue with you, cause you just said what you are and not going change cause some smuck on the internet said your a bad boy/girl. but your not doing that, your saying its ok to steel cause other people steel and society as a hole should accept my life style of steeling, next your going to say society should also accept serial murders cause that's there life style.

Again, 'IMA PIRAYT, DEALZ WITH ITZ!!!11!' is not what I'm getting at. What I'm saying (numerous times now) is that with the means it's becoming increasingly harder to accept what is effectively me throwing away my money for nothing.

 

[Mcface]

Look at it this way.
Piracy on the PC nearly killed PC gaming.

PC games generally come out much later, and are just shit ports. (with many games, but not all) And PC exclusives are becoming rare.

Why? Because it is VERY easy to steal them, that devs throw PC on the back burner.

 

[Vordark]

One thing I was always curious about:

When you buy anything 'entertainment' related, that has rights and all, on a department store, for example, how exactly the money goes to the people who owns the rights? I never really 'got' how that works.

And I sound incredibly dumb by not knowing, right?

There are eccentricities specific to each industry. I can only really tell you how it works in the video game world, which is essentially how I described it above. This model is *similar* to the music industry, but as I said there are some differences.

It all comes down to this: the publisher and developer have a contract. The developer pays all the costs to develop the game, hoping to make it all back and more from the royalties the publisher pays as specified in their contract. The publisher pays the promotional and distribution costs.

These agreements are almost always lopsided since the publisher always gets paid and if things go tits up, the dev is usually the only one to get shafted. Each copy of the game sold gives the publisher money right away. The developer has to pay their advance back to the publisher based on royalties, so until that advance is paid for, the publisher keeps that share of the money. If the game doesn't sell enough copies for the developer to pay back the publisher, they still have to repay the loan or get sued into bankruptcy.

If you are interested in all of this, there are a number of industry publications that go into a great deal of detail on this subject.

 

[tofulove]

every thing

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of you're post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

well all of your post is fine other than i have to accept the view point you have. the fact of the matter is, no matter how many excuses you use to justify steeling, its steeling, and no matter how you look at it steeling is wrong, your taking some thing you did not earn, now if you said im a thief that's what i do and i don't care if you think its wrong. than i cant argue with you, cause you just said what you are and not going change cause some smuck on the internet said your a bad boy/girl. but your not doing that, your saying its ok to steel cause other people steel and society as a hole should accept my life style of steeling, next your going to say society should also accept serial murders cause that's there life style.

Again, 'IMA PIRAYT, DEALZ WITH ITZ!!!11!' is not what I'm getting at. What I'm saying (numerous times now) is that with the means it's becoming increasingly harder to accept what is effectively me throwing away my money for nothing.

last time i check when you buy a game your not throwing away money, your getting a game, and if you see it as worthless than perhaps you shouldn't be a gamer.

 

[WhiteTiger225]

I do not really consider stealing to be the "sane man's option."

Yeah, but sadly pirate is a broad term encompassing many things. For example, it encompasses "I am going to download Transformers 2 2 weeks before it hits theaters!" and it also encompasses "I am going to download Daggerfall because no store sells it, and for that game plus Star Trek Armada 2 I am not going to pay 240 dollars to some fat guy in his garage when I can get it for free and not at all be stealing it because it's old to the point legitimate retailers no longer offer a means to legally obtain an unopened, trustworthy copy at a safe price"

and even encompasses "I am going to download a 1971 cult horror movie that isn't in any store and no collector will part with"

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

last time i check when you buy a game your not throwing away money, your getting a game, and if you see it as worthless than perhaps you shouldn't be a gamer.

Oh great... the 'what it means to be a gamer' argument.

Well, the thing is, you can't see it my way and I can't see it your way. I've put down exactly my reasoning behind my actions, and you've refused to read them. As you won't, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[WhiteTiger225]

every thing

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of you're post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

well all of your post is fine other than i have to accept the view point you have. the fact of the matter is, no matter how many excuses you use to justify steeling, its steeling, and no matter how you look at it steeling is wrong, your taking some thing you did not earn, now if you said im a thief that's what i do and i don't care if you think its wrong. than i cant argue with you, cause you just said what you are and not going change cause some smuck on the internet said your a bad boy/girl. but your not doing that, your saying its ok to steel cause other people steel and society as a hole should accept my life style of steeling, next your going to say society should also accept serial murders cause that's there life style.

Again, 'IMA PIRAYT, DEALZ WITH ITZ!!!11!' is not what I'm getting at. What I'm saying (numerous times now) is that with the means it's becoming increasingly harder to accept what is effectively me throwing away my money for nothing.

last time i check when you buy a game your not throwing away money, your getting a game, and if you see it as worthless than perhaps you shouldn't be a gamer.

^ This. This sentance is so true and awesome, it has divided by 0 8 times before you finished reading it.

 

[UkibyTheMaid]

It is a confusing idea. Most I can make out of it is they are obtained through numerous systems of distribution: one company 'pays' to buy a number of copies to sell at a marked-up price. When one is sold, the mark-up goes to the main company while the initial cost gets back to the original distributor.

Ah, I see... I'm glad it isn't something as easy as 1,2,3 becausde that would make me feel like an idiot (again), but that gave me a better idea of what goes on behind the scenes.

And, regarding my latest reply to this post, I must rectify myself and say that I agree with 'points' of to OP's arguments, and not the idea as a whole. After all, I don't deal with the entertainment insdustry, but I know that the only reason why I'll be able to have MGS: Peace Walker next years, in my hands, is because the original MGS games are sold and not because a everyone just downloaded the games (I have the Essential Collection box so, yeah, I'm part of the 'support team').

 

[Clashero]

I pirate most of my software (really, most games don't deserve the money. I mean, I loved Mirror's Edge, but $60? No.). Some games, however, deserve to be bought: Team Fortress 2, while fun on a pirated server, becomes ten times better once you have access to all servers and the unlockable stuff.

As for music, however, I try to buy albums. The music industry is reasonably priced, and then there are the benefits that come along with it like the inlay, lyrics booklet, higher quality audio, and, sometimes, a benefit (like Sarah Brightman's albums, which have a code you can redeem for exclusive, gorgeous photographs)

 

[UkibyTheMaid]

and even encompasses "I am going to download a 1971 cult horror movie that isn't in any store and no collector will part with"

This is the only case when I download movies, really.

I mean, how else would I put my hands on 'The Invasion of Thunderbolt Pagoda' (an obscure short film from the 60's), if it wasn't through downloads? And, it was a friend of mine who actually sent it to me, because he had the original (and wanted to share the awesome with me).

 

[tofulove]

I am an advocate of free internet and free information, however, based off that argument, you would steal food because you can go into a store and grab it.

nothing is free in this world, now i would like to see the internet paid by tax with out any government regulation -like pbs- wish full thinking at best, the problem with the idea information should be free is the fact people who go out and get information don't do it for free. every one needs to make a living some people make a living going out into the world and finding information people want to know. and if that information was free, or in other words worthless, the act of doing it will become worthless and no one will go out of there way to do it, other than for a hobie people would do in there free time.

nothing in this world is free, if you go to a nice pretty park your tax money pays to maintain it. if you go into a national forest for a little picnic. your tax money is paying for people to protect if from poachers fires and people who want to go in there and take the wood.

 

[MrNixon21]

So, Escapists, my question is this: what is your view on my view?

The one thing that upsets me about this whole issue is there are many people who pirate games because the price of games today is so high, and the quality of game we're getting for the money isn't even to the price we pay. If the prices went down, it would probably cause some people to stop pirating games, but not one single company (as far as I know) has made a move to cut game prices . . . and then we have the Wii that bleeds money from its customers by selling so many peripherals we really don't need in addition to the games.