The 'Provocative Clothing' Rape Defense

[chiefohara]

Any arsehole who uses the 'provocative clothes' rationale as an excuse should be made to wear nothing but provocative clothes in Prison. See how they like the attention from the other inmates.

... so clothes DO increase the chance of being raped?

Going outside the front door increases the chance of being raped.

Whats your point?

 

[Abomination]

Any arsehole who uses the 'provocative clothes' rationale as an excuse should be made to wear nothing but provocative clothes in Prison. See how they like the attention from the other inmates.

... so clothes DO increase the chance of being raped?

Going outside the front door increases the chance of being raped.

Whats your point?

One is mandatory to have a regular life, the other is optional.

 

[chiefohara]

Any arsehole who uses the 'provocative clothes' rationale as an excuse should be made to wear nothing but provocative clothes in Prison. See how they like the attention from the other inmates.

... so clothes DO increase the chance of being raped?

Going outside the front door increases the chance of being raped.

Whats your point?

One is mandatory to have a regular life, the other is optional.

Bollocks.

"Provocative" clothing does not diminish the responsibility of a rapist for his crime.

Thats like saying a burglar is less guilty of stealing from a store because it has nice things on display in the window.

 

[Abomination]

One is mandatory to have a regular life, the other is optional.

Not in many Muslim Middle Eastern countries, like Egypt. Women are discouraged (or forbidden, depending on the country) from travelling alone and are often encouraged (or required) to wear garments that completely obscure their bodies. And people still get raped there.

Incidentally, I like the way you just stopped responding to those of us who were asking for you to provide evidence for your claims, and then jumped back into the thread a few days later.

The problems of extreme middle-eastern countries have a rather easily identified source and have no connection to the situation in the West.

As for the proof thing it has been explained again and again: no proof exists going in either direction due to the ethical nature of the tests that would need to be performed to prove it either way. Some people in this thread understand that to be the case, others don't. This isn't a situation we are going to agree on so I'll leave it at that.

One is mandatory to have a regular life, the other is optional.

Bollocks.

"Provocative" clothing does not diminish the responsibility of a rapist for his crime.

Thats like saying a burglar is less guilty of stealing from a store because it has nice things on display in the window.

Nobody has said anything about reducing the responsibility of the rapist, nobody has said someone is 'less guilty' because of something. But as for your burglar example a shop displaying its expensive wares in the front window would have a higher chance of being burgled, especially if the security system was also on display there. It doesn't excuse the actions of the burglar though, not in the slightest.

 

[Abomination]

As for the proof thing it has been explained again and again: no proof exists going in either direction due to the ethical nature of the tests that would need to be performed to prove it either way.

Tests?

That's like saying "We can never learn anything about meteorology, and can never predict the weather, because we can't perform the necessary tests".

In cases where tests aren't possible, studies are done on historical records and documented accounts. That means that a hypothesis can indeed still be proven or disproven.

On the topic of this thread, there have been no studies that have proven the hypothesis that clothing has an effect on one's likelihood of being raped.

Because weather predictions are 100% accurate, right?

The weather also doesn't have situations of going unreported, potential untrustworthy witnesses and all the other issues that even proving a rape took place has. If rape DID have the same measuring methods as meterology then we most certainly would have the data to make a scientific claim, but since we don't we can't.

We can hypothesize, but there's no proof that clothing never has an effect on how any rape happens.

 

[Lilani]

One is mandatory to have a regular life, the other is optional.

What then, pray tell, do you suggest I wear if/when I get caught in a bad place after dark? Because that happens sometimes. I don't plan for it, and I certainly do all I can to avoid it. But sometimes I get caught up doing stuff and I have to be downtown or someplace sketchy (IE my neighborhood) after dark. What do you expect me to do? Keep a duffel bag with me at all times that contains a baggy trench coat and a large hat to stuff my hair in? Because nothing short of that is going to hide my body. And that's all they need to tell that someone's a woman--the figure and the hair. That coupled with the vulnerable situation is enough to get them to try, or at least get close enough to see.

Hell, it doesn't have to be dark. I had a friend just last week who was stalked by someone just a few blocks from campus. She was walking from her car at 4 in the afternoon when this guy just started following her, keeping less than a foot behind her at all times. She kept walking, grabbed her cell phone, dialed campus police, and explained what was going on. And the guy still followed her. She's on the phone, glancing over her shoulder and describing him and he's still following her. Finally she met up with a campus police vehicle and he took off in the other direction just as the vehicle came into view. Then she had to spend the rest of the afternoon sweeping downtown with them and giving a statement.

So please, tell me what I should do, oh mighty wise wizard of stranger safety. Tell me to wear trench coats day or night and how much they'll protect me. I mean people do it in the middle east all the time and they only sometimes get gang-raped. I'm sure it will be just as successful here.

 

[Abomination]

One is mandatory to have a regular life, the other is optional.

What then, pray tell, do you suggest I wear if/when I get caught in a bad place after dark? Because that happens sometimes. I don't plan for it, and I certainly do all I can to avoid it. But sometimes I get caught up doing stuff and I have to be downtown or someplace sketchy (IE my neighborhood) after dark. What do you expect me to do? Keep a duffel bag with me at all times that contains a baggy trench coat and a large hat to stuff my hair in? Because nothing short of that is going to hide my body. And that's all they need to tell that someone's a woman--the figure and the hair. That coupled with the vulnerable situation is enough to get them to try, or at least get close enough to see.

Hell, it doesn't have to be dark. I had a friend just last week who was stalked by someone just a few blocks from campus. She was walking from her car at 4 in the afternoon when this guy just started following her, keeping less than a foot behind her at all times. She kept walking, grabbed her cell phone, dialed campus police, and explained what was going on. And the guy still followed her. She's on the phone, glancing over her shoulder and describing him and he's still following her. Finally she met up with a campus police vehicle and he took off in the other direction just as the vehicle came into view. Then she had to spend the rest of the afternoon sweeping downtown with them and giving a statement.

So please, tell me what I should do, oh mighty wise wizard of stranger safety. Tell me to wear trench coats day or night and how much they'll protect me. I mean people do it in the middle east all the time and they only sometimes get gang-raped. I'm sure it will be just as successful here.

Well, since you asked.

Don't wear a skirt that could be mistaken for a belt. Try not to display your underwear as part of your regular attire. Cleaveage is often appreciated but should be a happy accident of your clothing choice, not its focus.

Kind'a simple stuff.

They haven't designed rape-proof clothing, apart from chastity belts, but every little bit helps, right?

 

[Lilani]

Don't wear a skirt that could be mistaken for a belt. Try not to display your underwear as part of your regular attire. Cleaveage is often appreciated but should be a happy accident of your clothing choice, not its focus.

Kind'a simple stuff.

They haven't designed rape-proof clothing, apart from chastity belts, but every little bit helps, right?

Oh, you're funny.

No, let me put it another way. The main logic behind the whole "don't wear clothing that attracts attention" thing is this: If the rapist cannot immediately tell you are a woman, then that gives you a modicum of safety. But here's the thing: You don't have to be wearing a miniskirt or showing your underpants to be identifiable as a woman. You can spot a woman's figure even if they're wearing jeans and a t-shirt. And the hair is typically a dead giveaway, as well. Stop titillating yourself with the image of all women walking out their front doors in stripper's attire for just one second and think about how women really dress, and how easy it is to tell they are women even when the clothes they are wearing are technically gender-neutral.

So for this to really be effective, I have to completely disguise the fact that I am a woman. Which means either trench coat and large hat, or total disguise complete with bald-cap and beer-gut. The trench coat will arise suspicion either way, especially if it isn't cold outside, and the bald cap is just frankly ridiculous.

So try this again for me, please. Tell me how to disguise the fact that I'm a woman. Because if your little plan for preventing rape is going to work, it can't be done any other way. If someone is identifiable as a woman, they are a target. It doesn't matter if they're wearing a bikini or a frock.

 

[Prosis]

Clothing is viewed as the first impression of a person.
Which person would an average individual find more trustworthy? A person with a collared shirt, clean shaven face, and an even haircut? Or a person with tatoos, ripped shirt saying "**** YOU," spiky dyed hair, and a cigarette?
Obviously, appearance is optional to the person. The cleancut guy could very well be a murderer, and the punkstar wannabe could be a shining example of human kindness. That is to say, appearance does not reflect your personality. However, strangers infer your personality by your appearance. A stranger would assume that the cleancut guy is alright, while they would be nervous around the punk. I could get a dozen tatoos, shave my head, get some chains, and walk down the street late at night. As a person, I have the right to dress as I choose and go where I please. However, people will avoid me. Police will be suspicious of me. Although my clothing is not representative of who I am, the fact that I chose to wear it causes other people to assume I want to represent that.

Now, onto the provocative clothing. In our society, it is presumed that less clothing means more flirty/open. Why? Because generally people only get naked with another person for swimming or for sex. Less clothing = more sexy. This should be wrong, but this is the societal view, perpetuated by both men and women. Because of this, it is decent advice not to dress half-naked at a party. By showing more of your skin, people assume that you are more open to flirting/getting it on.

That is the justification for the advice of "dressing decent." It seems to be fairly decent advice, just like "don't wear ripped clothes at an interview" and "don't wear clothing with racially offensive slogans." It is just advice, however. It does not have to be followed.
And this is the important line I feel. While it is good advice to dress more conservatively, you have the right to dress however you please. How you choose to dress should never be a case in legal rulings. And regardless of clothing, there is never a state of dress in which rape is justified.

Provocative clothing has no place in rape defense, as we have the freedom to dress as we choose. It's similar (not a great example) to how you can leave a window open at home. Someone may come in through the window and rob the place. But leaving the window open does not mean that the criminal was allowed to rob your house (nor should he get a decreased sentence). Likewise, I believe that it is alright to advise wearing more clothing, but a rapist cannot argue that her clothing was a factor. He is still just as guilty, regardless of what she was wearing.

TLDR: People make assumptions of certain clothing. Good advice is to dress appropriately, but you are allowed to do as you please. A rapist cannot argue clothing as justification for rape.

 

[Lilani]

-snip-

This is good advice and all for interviews, but what place does this advice have when it comes to rape? You spend an entire paragraph at the end justifying that it's all an "option" and that there is no state of dress in which rape is justified. If that's the case, then why bring it up at all? Stranger rape has nothing to do with what you're wearing at the moment. The only "assumption" they want to make is regarding what your gender is. If you can be identified as a female, you are a target. It doesn't matter if you're wearing a bikini or jeans and a t-shirt. Nothing short of dressing in drag is going to reduce a woman's chance of being targeted by a stalker or rapist.

The only thing I can get from this whole "dressing appropriately for the occasion" speil of yours is what I'm getting from most everyone else in this thread, "You have the right to wear whatever you want...but if you don't want to be regarded as irresponsible then you have to dress like a man. You have an option...but really you don't." So if that isn't what you're trying to say, then don't you think it might be best just to leave all of this unsaid? Because there really is no other way to word it without somehow suggesting there are types of clothing that "encourage" rape, and if you're going to suggest that then you'd best be ready to own that claim and justify it.

 

[Abomination]

Don't wear a skirt that could be mistaken for a belt. Try not to display your underwear as part of your regular attire. Cleaveage is often appreciated but should be a happy accident of your clothing choice, not its focus.

Kind'a simple stuff.

They haven't designed rape-proof clothing, apart from chastity belts, but every little bit helps, right?

Oh, you're funny.

No, let me put it another way. The main logic behind the whole "don't wear clothing that attracts attention" thing is this: If the rapist cannot immediately tell you are a woman, then that gives you a modicum of safety. But here's the thing: You don't have to be wearing a miniskirt or showing your underpants to be identifiable as a woman. You can spot a woman's figure even if they're wearing jeans and a t-shirt. And the hair is typically a dead giveaway, as well. Stop titillating yourself with the image of all women walking out their front doors in stripper's attire for just one second and think about how women really dress, and how easy it is to tell they are women even when the clothes they are wearing are technically gender-neutral.

So for this to really be effective, I have to completely disguise the fact that I am a woman. Which means either trench coat and large hat, or total disguise complete with bald-cap and beer-gut. The trench coat will arise suspicion either way, especially if it isn't cold outside, and the bald cap is just frankly ridiculous.

So try this again for me, please. Tell me how to disguise the fact that I'm a woman. Because if your little plan for preventing rape is going to work, it can't be done any other way. If someone is identifiable as a woman, they are a target. It doesn't matter if they're wearing a bikini or a frock.

Two hypothetical potential targets, one is dressed in a provocitive manner, the other is not. Every other aspect is equal. What target is this hypothetical rapist most likely to go for?

Such studies are impossible to actually perform due to ethical constraints but I am certain most people predict those results as a 50/50 split.

Remember, this isn't about excusing anyone or blaming anyone. If you are the only woman in a dark alley you've got more problems than what you're wearing, obviously. But should a choice be available to a potential rapist or creep one's attire will likely be taken into consideration.

 

[Prosis]

-snip-

Because I wanted to address the question proposed in the topic. Why do people still argue Provocative Clothing Defense? So I explained why. Because of assumptions made with clothing. That is ultimately the logic behind the arguement. People assume things by dress, which is true. The belief that by "choosing" to dress and represent those assumptions, she "chose" to be raped. But that logic is idiotic.

I then proceeded to explain why Provocative Clothing is not a valid rape defense, due to personal freedom. There are a number of arguements that can be made against Provocative Clothing, but I chose freedom of expression, as it is a solid and unarguable one. I guess I should have been more clear that the majority of rapes are not based on clothing. I am not arguing that failing to follow that advice will ensure that a person will be raped, or that following that advice will ensure that a person will not be raped.

It is good advice to save your money for hard times. However, saving your money will not ensure that you won't go broke. It is good advice to lock your front doors and windows. However, locking your doors and windows will not ensure that you will not be robbed. And failing to do these things does not mean that you "deserve" to suffer from the consequences. It. Is. Advice. It benefits some people, and it is useless to others. Take it or leave it.

 

[Lilani]

Two hypothetical potential targets, one is dressed in a provocitive manner, the other is not. Every other aspect is equal. What target is this hypothetical rapist most likely to go for?

Either way one of them is getting raped, so what does it matter? The only way they are both going to get out of the situation rape-free is if they couldn't be seen as women at all. Even if they were wearing equally "provocative" one of them is guaranteed to not leave the situation happy. Nothing has been prevented or avoided no matter what either of them is wearing.

Such studies are impossible to actually perform due to ethical constraints but I am certain most people predict those results as a 50/50 split.

Remember, this isn't about excusing anyone or blaming anyone. If you are the only woman in a dark alley you've got more problems than what you're wearing, obviously. But should a choice be available to a potential rapist or creep one's attire will likely be taken into consideration.

You don't get what I'm saying, though. It doesn't matter what the woman is wearing, she's a target the moment the rapist knows she's a woman. The only way clothes are going to prevent anything is if they can't tell she's a woman at all. So either stop avoiding my point or just say you don't have an answer, this is getting tedious.

 

[Shadowstar38]

Two hypothetical potential targets, one is dressed in a provocitive manner, the other is not. Every other aspect is equal. What target is this hypothetical rapist most likely to go for?

Either way one of them is getting raped, so what does it matter? The only way they are both going to get out of the situation rape-free is if they couldn't be seen as women at all. Even if they were wearing equally "provocative" one of them is guaranteed to not leave the situation happy. Nothing has been prevented or avoided no matter what either of them is wearing.

Such studies are impossible to actually perform due to ethical constraints but I am certain most people predict those results as a 50/50 split.

Remember, this isn't about excusing anyone or blaming anyone. If you are the only woman in a dark alley you've got more problems than what you're wearing, obviously. But should a choice be available to a potential rapist or creep one's attire will likely be taken into consideration.

You don't get what I'm saying, though. It doesn't matter what the woman is wearing, she's a target the moment the rapist knows she's a woman. The only way clothes are going to prevent anything is if they can't tell she's a woman at all. So either stop avoiding my point or just say you don't have an answer, this is getting tedious.

Where a clearly visible synthetic penis. This is assuming hate crimes are less frequent than rape, but there you go.

 

[Abomination]

Two hypothetical potential targets, one is dressed in a provocitive manner, the other is not. Every other aspect is equal. What target is this hypothetical rapist most likely to go for?

Either way one of them is getting raped, so what does it matter? The only way they are both going to get out of the situation rape-free is if they couldn't be seen as women at all. Even if they were wearing equally "provocative" one of them is guaranteed to not leave the situation happy. Nothing has been prevented or avoided no matter what either of them is wearing.

Such studies are impossible to actually perform due to ethical constraints but I am certain most people predict those results as a 50/50 split.

Remember, this isn't about excusing anyone or blaming anyone. If you are the only woman in a dark alley you've got more problems than what you're wearing, obviously. But should a choice be available to a potential rapist or creep one's attire will likely be taken into consideration.

You don't get what I'm saying, though. It doesn't matter what the woman is wearing, she's a target the moment the rapist knows she's a woman. The only way clothes are going to prevent anything is if they can't tell she's a woman at all. So either stop avoiding my point or just say you don't have an answer, this is getting tedious.

As the poster above me mentioned, it is advice.

In the scenario I gave one person still gets raped, but which one is less likely to be? If that's the case the advice is still sound.

It doesn't have to prevent every single case of rape but if the person who made the decision is not raped because of it then it was successful.

It is the advice any father would give their daughter. It sucks that some girl was raped but I'm certain the father would prefer some other woman to be raped than his daughter. I am certain a woman would prefer some other woman to be raped than herself.

 

[Prosis]

-snip-

Please don't relate your arguement to mine. I find your analogy to be a gross oversimplification of the issue.

 

[Lilani]

As the poster above me mentioned, it is advice.

In the scenario I gave one person still gets raped, but which one is less likely to be? If that's the case the advice is still sound.

It doesn't have to prevent every single case of rape but if the person who made the decision is not raped because of it then it was successful.

It is the advice any father would give their daughter. It sucks that some girl was raped but I'm certain the father would prefer some other woman to be raped than his daughter. I am certain a woman would prefer some other woman to be raped than herself.

If the same number of people are going to get raped either way, then stop pretending your "advice" is helping anyone. My dad has never given me this advice, because he knows the only thing that can help is either a kick to the groin or pepper spray to the face. Don't even insult me with the idea that you somehow care more about me because you've managed to combine your ignorance of how stranger rape works with misplaced self-righteousness. I have explained to you three times that all the rapist needs to know is that you are a female, and you seem content to ignore that in favor of your other idea which helps no one, yet makes you feel better anyway because you can tell yourself you're doing us a service by sharing some "inconvenient truth."

So just stop. Until you know what you're talking about, just spare me.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

A girl dressing provocatively is never an excuse to even think about raping her. All dressing like that should do is make people think you're a slut, which you probably are.

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it..whose fault is it - the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab (veil), no problem would have occurred."

"Women are weapons used by Satan to control men."

-Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali (2006)