The 'Provocative Clothing' Rape Defense

[Vegosiux]

Right, and I posted in a thread complaining about how R&P is full of vitriol just a little while ago.

Can we agree on one thing? Actually, two things.

One: Rape is not okay, rape is a heinous crime, and one that really needs no apologists.
Two: Since we agreed on "one", can we stop calling each other rape apologists and all, it brings nothing to the discussion.

Now then. The "she had it coming" argument is asinine. Rape, after all, is not about sex, it's about power. Rapists don't rape because they're horny (they still might be horny, but that's not the reason), but because they just have to get their way. And if they can't get what they want, they will take it by force. And they'll feel good along the way because, hey, they're demonstrating how nobody tells them they can't have something.

That is, of course, a rather fucked up line of thought, but whenever a rapist defends themselves with one of these lines that shift the blame onto the victim, chances are they really believe it. That's the scary bit, that they are incapable of considering that whoever their raped was anything more than an object of their desires. If you're just after sex and get told "no", then you go and try somewhere else, you don't stick around and go on a power trip instead.

Plus, as I said earlier, if "But she was dressed like that!" is a legitimate defense, then that means that men are creatures who can't control their own sex drives. And I'm quite offended by that.

So, um if anyone who would use that line as a "rape defense" is reading this...do your gender a favor, guys, and don't paint us all like mindless sex-crazy maniacs just because you don't have the balls to man up to what you've done.

Better yet, don't go about raping people.

 

[Scrubiii]

I feel like people are misunderstanding this argument. It's not a case of people saying the woman "wanted to be raped" or that by wearing provocative clothing, she was so alluring that she caused a random man to rape her. It's an argument of "if there is a rapist, who goes out looking for women to rape, he is more likely to try and rape a woman wearing provocative clothing, so by wearing provocative clothing, you are putting yourself at risk" in the same way someone who lives in a particularly crime-filled neighbourhood is putting themselves at risk of burglary by leaving their house unlocked.

I'm not saying I support this argument, or that I think it is correct, because I don't. There just seem to be all too many people on this thread who misunderstand entirely what the argument is. No-one is suggesting that provocative clothing causes rape, they're suggesting it's a risk factor.

 

[lunavixen]

*sigh* here we go again...


Most people have a very poor understanding of sexual assault and rape, as well as the motivations behind it. Sure, the definition of rape has been legally defined (and socially defined) again and again and again, but motivation for rape rarely gets discussed. Most cases of rape are not about sex, it's about power over the victim (both male and female), also, stranger rape is not that common and only accounts for approximately 1% of all sexual assaults.

According to BoCSaR (Bureau of Crime, Statistics and Research) and the NSW Rape Crisis Centre there are several common misconceptions surrounding sexual assaults and their statistics. I'll put it in dot form for easier reading:

Myth: Rape is an uncontrollable act of lust.
~ No it's not, statistics and research show that most offenders plan their attacks.

Myth: Sexual assault is committed in dark alleys by strangers.
~In 70% of sexual assaults the offender is a family member, friend, work or school colleague. Of the remaining 30% the offender is usually someone the victim meets socially or dates. Most sexual assaults occur in the victim or
perpetrators home, car or workplace. Sexual assault by a stranger accounts for less than 1% of sexual violence and an attack by a stranger in a dark place is even less common.

Also, 1 in 5 women and 1 in 20 men will experience sexual assault at some point in their lives. Sexual assault only has about a 10% to 40% report rate making dealing with it very difficult.

Rape is not about sex in most cases (sex being the motivation for the rape is more typical of opportunistic rapists, who are much less likely to be strangers to the victim) it's about power over the victim. The power over the victim can stem from anger, feelings of inadequecy or sadism among other things and victim blaming is an excuse used (by rapists) to justify their actions, and as much as I hate to say this, in some countries, victim blaming can get the sentence reduced or result in the acquittal of the offender.

 

[verdant monkai]

People say that there's no evidence and that it is completely unrelated to rape. I disagree because that sort of clothing may set off something in men who have little self control. I'll admit it when I see a hot scantily clad girl in the street I think "ohh yeahssss" to my self and then my mind tends to elaborate, but I would never make a grotty comment or try to go over and grab her.

Take someone who is a bit mentally unstable and also very drunk. They may see the same girl I did, seeing her skimpy outfit they will think of the same things I did (her clothes would make the mind recall the things associated with the clothing, namely things of a sexual nature). Having little self control in the first place and being intoxicated, it is not surprising that they may make a remark to try and appear big in front of their friends (seen that happen a lot), or in more extreme ceases actually attempt sexual harrasment or rape.

You cant claim there is no evidence and then MAKE UP your own little fictional circumstance to use as evidence. Do you want me to find the state that show dress has no effect on the likelihood of rape? How about the interviews with actual rapists who aren't even aware of clothing and choose victims just out of opportunity?

What's worrying to me is that this whole conversation focusses only on "stranger inthe bushes" rape, and ignores the vastly higher acquaintance rape or date rape.

You try and belittle my point then come out with "find the state that show dress has no effect on the likelihood of rape?". Do you mean statistic or american state? and do you mean shows? I am a bit confused as to what you are trying to ask me.

Also even if you have seen video's with rapists saying clothes don't matter, human beings are all different and react to things differently right? so it stands to reason different things would make different people want to commit rape. Keep in mind you haven't seen every rapist interview video just a few.

By all means respond and lets have a friendly CONVERSATION, as I'd like to avoid an argument.

 

[Therumancer]

It is also very easy to claim you've been raped, and comes with a lot of positive aspects (sympathy) especially when it's not true. All you need to do is bring the charge, especially seeing as it's a crime you can accuse someone of where there is little expectation of physical evidence, and even if the guy gets off he's going to suffer a major stigma just from having been accused. Everyone shows up to white knight the alleged victim as we see in this case, and nobody wants to believe that someone claiming to have been raped is a liar. A society wide issue.

Not true. Society will often rally behind the rapist and demonise the victim. The 11 year old girl in Texas gangraped by 21 men and boys comes to mind, not only did the defence lawyer try to blame her, he (and members of the community) expressed the view that it was terrible that the rapists would have to live with the consequences.

Shortly before that, the cheerleader in Texas kicked off her cheerleading squad for refusing to cheer for her rapist, was harassed by her community because she brought them into disrepute.

Hell, look at people like Mike Tyson and Roman Polanski. There's no question that they are guilty, but they've got plenty of apologists and they've gone on with their film careers. That's exactly what would not happen if the mere accusation was enough to stigmatise a rapist.

It DID Stigmatize both Tyson and Polanski, both are pretty much viewed as monsters. Polanski was pretty much forced into exile fleeing for his crimes. Tyson not only became a freak show, but arguably lost his entire career because he went soft (unable to train properly) in prison and was never the same fighter again, people kept watching to see if he'd get it back, but he never did.

In other cases though, you have to also consider when the accused rapists are just that, as opposed to convicted ones, and also when they do their time and get out. See if some girl accuses a guy of rape, but he's found innocent, at the end of the day refusing to do her job when he's around still puts her at fault from the perspective of an employer, etc...

At the end of the day the point is your still talking about it, innocent or guilty. If guilty you still attach a stigma after the person has done their time.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

I don't leave my car unlocked when I drive through the ghetto.

I don't leave the door to my house open while I'm sleeping.

I don't keep my money hanging out of my pockets.

I don't walk through dark alleys in the dead of night.

I avoid doing those things because if I did people would think I'm an easy mark, and I'd rather not have a gun shoved in my face again.

If you fail to take proper precautions against crime, the odds the crime will happen to you increases.

See this doesnt hold up. Some of these things actively STOP people from doing bad things to you. A door is a PHYSICAL barrier keeping a thief away. Clothes are not fucking armor against a rapist. The idea isnt "If you wear clothes rapists are terrified of the unbreakable fortress that is: some jeans" its "If you wear clothes the rapist might try and pick an easier target, hopefully raping someone else instead of you" which is utter bullshit because no rape has been prevented, just shifted to another victim.

Your door stops the thief WITHOUT the need for someone else to take the fall for you. So do the locks on your car. They are physical barriers. Clothes are not. The whole idea is that its a distraction technique to try and draw attention to someone else so they can take the raping. Locks and doors do not function in the same way.

 

[OutsiderEX]

I don't leave my car unlocked when I drive through the ghetto.

I don't leave the door to my house open while I'm sleeping.

I don't keep my money hanging out of my pockets.

I don't walk through dark alleys in the dead of night.

I avoid doing those things because if I did people would think I'm an easy mark, and I'd rather not have a gun shoved in my face again.

If you fail to take proper precautions against crime, the odds the crime will happen to you increases.

See this doesnt hold up. Some of these things actively STOP people from doing bad things to you. A door is a PHYSICAL barrier keeping a thief away. Clothes are not fucking armor against a rapist. The idea isnt "If you wear clothes rapists are terrified of the unbreakable fortress that is: some jeans" its "If you wear clothes the rapist might try and pick an easier target, hopefully raping someone else instead of you" which is utter bullshit because no rape has been prevented, just shifted to another victim.

Your door stops the thief WITHOUT the need for someone else to take the fall for you. So do the locks on your car. They are physical barriers. Clothes are not. The whole idea is that its a distraction technique to try and draw attention to someone else so they can take the raping. Locks and doors do not function in the same way.

If it can stop just ONE rape, we should legislate to ban all forms of open clothing.

Also chastity belts for everyone.

 

[Smeatza]

It's strange how we encourage risk management in all aspects of life, until it comes to rape.
Then suddenly risk management doesn't matter/apply.

'Tis confusing.

 

[DkLnBr]

"I stole from them because they were rich! with all that stuff they just had it coming!"
"I murdered him because he looked to lively, I couldn't help myself! if he just looked more lethargic then it wouldn't have happened"
Ya, that excuse still sounds stupid.... the power of rationalization

 

[Terminal Blue]

This is probably one of the most depressing reoccurring topics I see on the Escapist, it comes up every few months and thus every few months I have to watch a significant proportion of the male population, who are probably otherwise perfectly nice guys, making themselves look like complete tools.

So with that in mind, I proudly present a guide to not looking like a tool on the internet.

Rape is not a crime of passion, stop treating it as such

Rape does not occur because some poor innocent dude is walking down the street, sees an attractive woman and is suddenly consumed with uncontrollable lust at the scandalous and terrible sight of her bewbs.

Rapists are not loners who can't get laid, they are as likely as any other segment of the male population to be in a relationship. In fact, their victims are often women they are in a relationship with. Men who rape, even the majority who do not consider themselves to have committed a crime, generally do so to feel powerful, in control or occasionally out of anger. It is almost never about satisfying an uncontrollable sexual urge.

Amazingly, male sexual urges are completely controllable and the vast majority of us control them perfectly well.

Stop fantasizing about strange men in dark alleys

Assault stranger rape is a comparatively rare phenomenon. There are not this strange class of sick men hanging out on street corners waiting to jump on anyone who comes by in a low cut top.

Even most stranger rapists behave in ways they can rationalize as "acceptable", contacting their victim normally and then attempting to coerce them into sex. This is premeditated behavior, it is not something men are driven to do, and neither is it something which only happens to attractive people. Stranger rapists will often carefully select victims who they believe they can successfully coerce or overpower, they are not suddenly driven into a berserk rape-frenzy at the sight of boobs.

As for acquaintance rape, an acquaintance rapist has already seen his victim in several different outfits. He may well have seem them naked and indeed had sex with them before.

Don't compare personal crimes with theft

Noone cares if you lock your car when parking it for fear it might get stolen.
Noone cares if you lock your house when going out for fear you might be burgled.
Noone cares if you don't flash your wallet or phone in public for fear someone might grab it.

These are all crimes in which a person steals an object. Amazingly, women are not objects, they are actually human beings very much like yourself. They are not at risk of being "stolen", however attractive the metaphor may be to you. Instead, they are at risk of assault. Assault is an attack on another human being, it is a different crime to theft. It has very different motivations and different prevention strategies (most of which the average woman is far, far more practiced in than the average man).

Just stop this whole line of thought

I don't particularly care what bullshit justification or weird myths you want to come up with to try and disguise the fact, if someone is fucked against their will by someone who knows (or even should know) they did not consent, there is one person responsible. You do not have the right to request that 50% of the population live in fear because bros just be needin' to get laid, yo!

Now grow up, don't rape people and learn to have a healthy and satisfying sex life without being a manipulative, controlling or violent piece of shit. If you don't think you're capable of doing that then just avoid having sex, because you're clearly not ready for it yet.

 

[omega 616]

My sister has been a victim of rape. Long story short : he got her drunk, brought her to his place and touched her in places and ways that made her feel uncomfortable. And that's nooo good.

Sister went to the police. Long story short : trial- guy is convicted.

Except that's not what realy happened.

4 years later my sister started feeling guilt over "a little lie". Apparently, she dressed provocatively because she wanted to get laid, she drank with the guy and told him she just had to get fucked by him. They went tohis place and had a good time. A few weeks later he was accused of rape, tried, and convicted. Guy losteverything and probably won't be able to work as a teacher ever again although his name is technically cleared.

What happened to my sister? Nothing, and this disgusts me to no end. My family decided to forgive and forget, but I can't. I could have been that guy.

Nice anecdote, bro. So how exactly is that at all relevant to a discussion about the "provocative clothing" rape defence? Do you think that if your sister had been raped whilst wearing "provocative" clothing, she would have deserved it and the guy would have been blameless? Because that's the only possible connection that I'm seeing.

False accusations for rape are at the same level as false accusations for any other crime. Sometimes people falsely report crimes. It happens. Trying to connect that with the provocative clothing argument just makes you one of the "It's not really rape if..." crowd.

People don't say it as a defence, they say it as a contributing factor for the rape occurring.

Despite there being precisely zero evidence to back this up.

I take this view point only cos I belive its a contributing factor to rape. It's still the guys fault, undoubtedly! I just think women should be more cautious and try not to bring so much attention to themselves.

"Make sure he rapes the other girl!"

I'm 23 and for the first time I went out on a Saturday night, never drank alcohol though. I saw girls and women dressed up like cheap hookers, so drunk they couldn't walk straight, grinding there ass into guys crotches but refusing to kiss them

Those bitches.

and all I could think is "you're sexually teasing drunk men (so there not in there right mind), then turning them down. You're dressed provocatively and are in a vulnerable state" . These girls are so easy to rape its scary, I actually was nervous for the girls and didn't even know them.

Oh look, it's our old friend Mr Some Girls Rape Easy [http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/state-legislator-criticized-for-comments-on-rape-hj76f4k-173587961.html].

The way I see it is if you leave your house empty and the door wide open, don't be surprised when you get robbed,

Women are not houses. Look, I know this is hard to get your head around, but women aren't objects. Period.

to put it another way, don't run red lights and expect not to get in a car crash.

Running red lights is illegal. Wearing skirts that stop above the knee is not illegal.

don't be a dick tease

Spoiler

dress sexy but not like hooker (slutty sexy) but more like Helen Mirron (classy sexy).

Thanks for dictating the precise subset of "sexy" that women are allowed to dress as! Oh and please call us sluts and hookers one more time, it gets more charming every time you do it.

Like I said it's still down to the guy but depending on the situation, 0.5% of the responsibility could be pointed at the woman. That's just my opinion though.

Yup. Opinion. Not backed up by any kind of evidence whatsoever.

We're all responsible for our actions, so if you act/dress a certain way and negative things come from that you have to take a little responsibility. If I act like a twat and insult people on the street, then I will get beat up... Should I be assaulted for doing that? No, it's illegal for a reason same thing applies.

I would love to pick apart your witty one liners and that jpg that made me feel oh so humiliated, unfortunately I am doing this on my phone and it doesn't like this site.

I also don't appreciate words being put into my mouth, I didn't say women are objects... It's an analogy, there's a million in could use. I don't think women who do get raped deserved to be raped no matter how they act or dress, I just think there are ways to reduce the risk of it happening to you.

Opinion doesn't always need evidence to back it up, gun control, health service and gay marriage are all things that have no evidence to support them and are just opinion. Sure, collect as many numbers and polls as you like but the other side will do the same.

 

[Ken Sapp]

it would be great if all men would learn that rape is fucking wrong.

It would be great if all humans would learn that rape is wrong. By explicitly stating men you are falling prey to, or at least implying, the stereotype of it always being men forcing themselves on women. Having known several rape victims I know it is not a matter to be trivialized in any way and by focusing only on women who are raped we do ourselves and the ignored victims a great disservice.

On the original topic question: Wearing provocative clothing is akin to leaving your windows down and doors unlocked in a bad neighborhood. It is more likely to draw crimes of opportunity, but it does not excuse the criminal in any way or measure from their crime. Could the victim have taken better preventive measures? Sure, but the fault still lies entirely on the criminal. And I agree, the victim should not have to worry about being assaulted when planning their wardrobe.

 

[CaptainKarma]

People say that there's no evidence and that it is completely unrelated to rape. I disagree because that sort of clothing may set off something in men who have little self control. I'll admit it when I see a hot scantily clad girl in the street I think "ohh yeahssss" to my self and then my mind tends to elaborate, but I would never make a grotty comment or try to go over and grab her.

Take someone who is a bit mentally unstable and also very drunk. They may see the same girl I did, seeing her skimpy outfit they will think of the same things I did (her clothes would make the mind recall the things associated with the clothing, namely things of a sexual nature). Having little self control in the first place and being intoxicated, it is not surprising that they may make a remark to try and appear big in front of their friends (seen that happen a lot), or in more extreme ceases actually attempt sexual harrasment or rape.

You cant claim there is no evidence and then MAKE UP your own little fictional circumstance to use as evidence. Do you want me to find the state that show dress has no effect on the likelihood of rape? How about the interviews with actual rapists who aren't even aware of clothing and choose victims just out of opportunity?

What's worrying to me is that this whole conversation focusses only on "stranger inthe bushes" rape, and ignores the vastly higher acquaintance rape or date rape.

You try and belittle my point then come out with "find the state that show dress has no effect on the likelihood of rape?". Do you mean statistic or american state? and do you mean shows? I am a bit confused as to what you are trying to ask me.

Also even if you have seen video's with rapists saying clothes don't matter, human beings are all different and react to things differently right? so it stands to reason different things would make different people want to commit rape. Keep in mind you haven't seen every rapist interview video just a few.

By all means respond and lets have a friendly CONVERSATION, as I'd like to avoid an argument.

I meant stats (was on a tablet, can't handle predictive). I can't find the source I was thinking of, it's understandably hard to google. If you can find a book called The Rapist File I think it's in there.

And the whole "different rapists may act differently" applies to your hypothetical too. I admit my argument isn't going to be very compelling as I can't find the data to back me up, but it's still better than a scenario that you concocted out of thin air.

It's strange how we encourage risk management in all aspects of life, until it comes to rape.
Then suddenly risk management doesn't matter/apply.

'Tis confusing.

It's not a matter of risk management. If it could be proved conclusively that wearing a miniskirt gave you a 50% higher chance of being raped then, yes, I would advise against miniskirts. But it hasn't. And as has been pointed out, "stranger in the bushes" rape is a vanishingly small proportion of rapes, so they whole argument about not making yourself a target is a fucking waste of time and distracts from the actual issues.

Worse than that, attempts at victim blaming (and most advcie about how to dress IS victim blaming) is demonstrable harmful to both the victim and the legal process. Rape victims sexual habits, sexual fantasies, dress, flirtatiousness and behaviour have all been used in court as evidence that it "wasn't really rape". Numerous victims have comitted suicide after having their sexual history dragged out in court, with the implication that they were asking for it. It is NOT and never has been just risk management.

 

[Baneat]

It's just a very poor application of logic. It doesn't just apply to rape, people think if someone's being flamboyant then they're "asking" to get attacked and if they do then it's their fault. Obviously that's bonkers, you can't be at fault for being a victim of a crime.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

it would be great if all men would learn that rape is fucking wrong.

It would be great if all humans would learn that rape is wrong. By explicitly stating men you are falling prey to, or at least implying, the stereotype of it always being men forcing themselves on women. Having known several rape victims I know it is not a matter to be trivialized in any way and by focusing only on women who are raped we do ourselves and the ignored victims a great disservice.

On the original topic question: Wearing provocative clothing is akin to leaving your windows down and doors unlocked in a bad neighborhood. It is more likely to draw crimes of opportunity, but it does not excuse the criminal in any way or measure from their crime. Could the victim have taken better preventive measures? Sure, but the fault still lies entirely on the criminal. And I agree, the victim should not have to worry about being assaulted when planning their wardrobe.

Oh gee wiz, let me just help you out there:

WITH A QUOTE FROM THE POST YOU DELIBERATELY SNIPPED!

Sigh, it's not a defence. You've misread what they've said and just completely corrupted their words. And... egh... just... let's just say that a rape is going to happen one night. There is a man out with the intention of raping a girl. Wearing provocative clothes is just bringing attention to you, wearing unprovocative clothes isn't going to make you invisible, but you may put yourself higher on the list of potential targets if you wear clothes that provoke.

And then there's the hoo-haa about slut walks, yeah, ladies should be able to wear whatever they want. I agree. Let's tell young men not to rape. I also agree. But don't act like you can't understand that Canadian police officer who suggested to make yourself less of a target.

... huh. I didn't notice it was unpopular opinion time already.

I agree with this.

It would be great if women could wear whatever they want to whenever they want to and it would be great if all men would learn that rape is fucking wrong.
Fact of the matter is though, that everyone already knows rape is wrong, it's just that rapists don't care about it being wrong, nor do they care about the law or the victims for that matter, which is a big fucking problem.
This means that there are a few things that need be done:

1. Rapists need to be taught that rape is FUCKING WRONG.

2. Society needs to learn that rape can NEVER be the victims fault. There is no "he/she wanted to get raped"

3-9. See above

There we go, now isn't that EXACTLY WHAT YOU COMPLAINED ABOUT WAS MISSING FROM MY POST?

 

[verdant monkai]

I meant stats (was on a tablet, can't handle predictive). I can't find the source I was thinking of, it's understandably hard to google. If you can find a book called The Rapist File I think it's in there.

And the whole "different rapists may act differently" applies to your hypothetical too. I admit my argument isn't going to be very compelling as I can't find the data to back me up, but it's still better than a scenario that you concocted out of thin air.

Sorry but I'm not spending my time looking for books on rape.

I never insinuated that revealing clothing was the sole reason for rape, just that it can make some people want to commit rape. As I said in my original post things like build, location and number of witnesses are more of a factor. I also then said to you in my reply "different things would make different people want to commit rape", so you basically repeated what I said.

 

[Ken Sapp]

it would be great if all men would learn that rape is fucking wrong.

It would be great if all humans would learn that rape is wrong. By explicitly stating men you are falling prey to, or at least implying, the stereotype of it always being men forcing themselves on women. Having known several rape victims I know it is not a matter to be trivialized in any way and by focusing only on women who are raped we do ourselves and the ignored victims a great disservice.

On the original topic question: Wearing provocative clothing is akin to leaving your windows down and doors unlocked in a bad neighborhood. It is more likely to draw crimes of opportunity, but it does not excuse the criminal in any way or measure from their crime. Could the victim have taken better preventive measures? Sure, but the fault still lies entirely on the criminal. And I agree, the victim should not have to worry about being assaulted when planning their wardrobe.

Oh gee wiz, let me just help you out there:

WITH A QUOTE FROM THE POST YOU DELIBERATELY SNIPPED!

Sigh, it's not a defence. You've misread what they've said and just completely corrupted their words. And... egh... just... let's just say that a rape is going to happen one night. There is a man out with the intention of raping a girl. Wearing provocative clothes is just bringing attention to you, wearing unprovocative clothes isn't going to make you invisible, but you may put yourself higher on the list of potential targets if you wear clothes that provoke.

And then there's the hoo-haa about slut walks, yeah, ladies should be able to wear whatever they want. I agree. Let's tell young men not to rape. I also agree. But don't act like you can't understand that Canadian police officer who suggested to make yourself less of a target.

... huh. I didn't notice it was unpopular opinion time already.

I agree with this.

It would be great if women could wear whatever they want to whenever they want to and it would be great if all men would learn that rape is fucking wrong.
Fact of the matter is though, that everyone already knows rape is wrong, it's just that rapists don't care about it being wrong, nor do they care about the law or the victims for that matter, which is a big fucking problem.
This means that there are a few things that need be done:

1. Rapists need to be taught that rape is FUCKING WRONG.

2. Society needs to learn that rape can NEVER be the victims fault. There is no "he/she wanted to get raped"

3-9. See above

There we go, now isn't that EXACTLY WHAT YOU COMPLAINED ABOUT WAS MISSING FROM MY POST?

No, I was "complaining" about your specific use of the word men as it specifically casts light on only one portion of the issue even though you take a gender neutral stance later. Starting with a gender specific reference starts the audience in that frame and most will continue in that frame when you shift to the gender-neutral. Otherwise, I agree with what you had to say although I use somewhat different comparisons.