Aw come on. I'm at work for another hour. Surely we can flog this a little bit longer. Say something controversial!RJ 17 said:
The Revolution the MMO needs: Fun.
- Thread starter woodaba
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Kinda like what you describe. In their manifesto video, they use the example of "In an MMO, you'll see people standing around, and they scream their under attack, but nothing's happening. In Guild Wars 2, you will see the attack happening, in real time, and it'll be up to you to decide to save them or not. If a town is supposed to be under attack by centaurs, the centaurs won't be standing around, waiting for you, they'll actually be attacking the town."Elamdri said:
Alright, I'm a team player. Ummmmmmm.....BloatedGuppy said:
MMO's are the worst kind of game that caters to the lowest common denominator amongst gamers. They feed off the latent addictive nature in all humans by promising people "shiny new epic lewtz" if you play for just another 8 hours! JUST 8 MOAR HOURS! Only to kick the player in the balls by having the boss NOT drop the item they need, thus ensuring that the players are snared for another day of gaming.
It's just a cheap tactic to ensure that people keep playing your game and I'm sick of it and the hordes of mindless zombies that such games spawn!
Did you ever play EQ? That game was actually a Skinner Box. No fudging around it, that was some addictive shit. Just fiendish.RJ 17 said:
I still pine for it, mind you.
No, it's certainly not specific to MMOs, but they do it so much better. I remember when I was playing Dragon Age: Origins and with the scene set I was looking forward to setting off on my quest. When that tiny little map screen popped up with the 4 or 5 locations I could go to me part of me died inside a little. Suddenly this epic fantasy world felt very very small.RJ 17 said:
By contrast I can log into LOTRO, get on my horse and ride from Bag End to the gates of Moria, travelling through a brilliant recreation of the world that more or less invented epic fantasy as we know it, without a single loading screen or menu to take me 'out' of the world.
Heh. If you stretch the definition that widely then CoD Multiplayer is a socialisation tool.2: The People.
As much as I enjoy Zero Punctuation I take Yahtzee's views on MMOs with a mountain of salt. He makes no secret of his dislike of "muhmorpurgers" and it shows. He's funny, but I don't regard his views on the genre as particularly insightful or even well informed.
I customise my characters for my own personal enjoyment as much as anything else, just as anyone who's ever spent time working on, for example, the appearance of their Shepard in Mass Effect.
As for the grind... well BloatedGuppy made most of my arguments for me (cheers, Guppy) but I'll add this:
WoW is the undisputed king of the pallete swap monster and yes, there's not much difference between a lvl 5 hungry wolf, a lvl 20 rabid wolf or a lvl 80 monstrous wolf save for color and size. But that's WoW, and I've already said I consider WoW's grindiness almost indefensible. City of Heroes, for example, boasts a much wider range of enemy groups, with a lot more to differentiate them than the color of their model.
Grind is associated with MMOs (again, it's the perception that WoW is an MMO therefore all MMOs are like WoW) but two of the grindiest games I've played were Mass Effect 1 and 2. The first game had the almost utterly irrelevant side missions - almost all of which were more or less identical in enemy composition and setting. The second had the infamous planet scanning and if you wanted the minerals to upgrade the ship and get the best ending you had to do that.
Not to mention that almost every loyalty mission seemed to involve slogging through an inexplicably huge and many roomed warehouse because your target invariably had fifty mercenaries with them. Those sequences felt very much like a grind - the obligatory shooty gameplay bit before the next conversation sequence.
(Hmm... two unfavourable references to Bioware games in one post. I'll resist the urge to mention SWTOR and make it a hat trick.)
Meanwhile,
Do MMOs need a shake up? Perhaps, but as I hope I've made clear, I don't think they're anywhere near as homogeneous as a genre as you're making them out to be.woodaba said:
No game should try to be all things to everyone, and if 'a lot of people' don't find them fun then a lot of people need to find a gaming genre that they do find fun... or at least look deeper into the MMOs that are already out there and recognise that they're not all WoW clones.
I think your veiw of MMO's in general could be linked to what type of game you like. People who really enjoy FPS games, for example, probably wouldn't enjoy WOW. But they might enjoy Tribes, or Planetside 2, because they are reaction based shooters, basically online FPS's. Personally I think that MMO's like Planetside 2 and Guild Wars 2 are the future of MMO's. instead of just one set format, MMO's should have as many different genres as other games.
Nonsense! I like almost all genres. The only important thing to me is the quality of the game. Good FPS? Bring it on. Good Turn Based Strategy? I'm there. Good RPG? I'm all over it. About the only thing I never really get up on is hardcore sims, and even those have their appeal if you can really sink your teeth into them. I think dismissing anything on genre alone is really unfortunate and self-limiting.Sigma Castell said:
You're right about MMOs being stuck in a RPG rut, but technically you already have MP shooters like Battlefield and Modern Warfare, they're just not set in persistent worlds ala Planetside. Some MMO strategy games (that aren't finger blistering RTS) would be neat, though, if people could get into the slower pace.
Lacklustre gameplay is one of the many things where the MMORPG genre is lacking. Poor storytelling is another; while games aren't exactly great for that in general, MMOs are downright horrid. A major issue is the endgame-centric focus of the genre, having to go through dozens of levels just to be able to access the "meat" of the game is no fun for anyone. Throw all of these together and you have a new player's introduction to the genre consist of being told to go on the treadmill until they've reached the level cap; if they're stubborn enough to tough it out to that point, they've only been conditioned to accept the grindy nature of the game instead of having grown to enjoy it.woodaba said:
Yet the biggest thing holding back the genre (or more accurately, the best reason it should crash and burn) is... the community. Games can be underwhelming in many aspects if other parts of can hold them up, and in the case of MMORPGs the novelty of the genre's more social setting has allowed it to neglect details such as gameplay and storytelling. Unfortunately, it's an online gaming community; the only reason many put up with it is because they're having difficulty moving onto other venues due to the conditioning associated with the MMORPG genre, but even they eventually can't stand it anymore and leave.
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The matter of solving this problem definitively more or less means gutting the MMORPG genre, removing many of it's staples so that the rampant elitism and idiotic behaviour has nowhere to latch onto. Removing the gear ladder (or gear altogether), removing progression, removing anything remotely competitive; just let it be a place for people to hop in and have fun in the world without having to commit to it. There's no rewards to obtain or far-off goals to complete, only fun to be had; be it enjoying the gameplay or exploring the world.
And in doing so, what would be left of the MMORPG genre? A large world to fool around in, filled with events created by the playerbase: open-world PvP, impromtu dance parties, naked gnome races, and so on. Indeed, the best and most unique parts of the genre.... much of which I saw in World of Warcraft before any of the expansions were implemented, but were completely unheard of afterwards. Why did they disappear?
And for the short version:
Let players make their own fun, and they will do so.
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Progression & advancement are too prevalent in the genre, they're what has made it into the endless treadmill occupied by a sea of ego-stroking idiotic jerks. When one person gets it into their head they have to be better than everyone else (often simply because they can measure it), it becomes infectious. And there you have it, all the fun is sucked out of the genre because someone wants to make themselves feel better than everyone else and can't shut up about it.
The only way to minimize it (getting rid of it entirely won't happen) is to make their obsession a clear waste of time and absolutely not worthy of praise. The general playerbase will then pursue other activities, ones which are more entertaining.
Like naked gnome races.
Assholes and idiots are not a genre phenomenon though. Have you ever played an online shooter? Come back and tell me it's the fault of the "MMO treadmill" that people act like buffoons online.The Abhorrent said:
I'm going to have to stick with the Greater Internet Fuckward Theory on that front.
In defense of WoW, though, that's not entirely true. Something as simple as one wolf having a bleed, and another having BAF and a howl that fears you, can completely change the dynamics of the experience. WoW's issue was by it's third expansion it had become painfully easy and rote, so it didn't matter what the mobs were doing, you were facerolling them all anyway.Sixcess said:
In New Vegas, all enemies were essentially the same to me. The only difference between them was the size of the hitbox around their head as I sniped them from 500 miles away. Yet no one would ever have accused New Vegas of palette swapping or grinding. WoW does a fair job providing a diverse menagerie to beat on. If it's guilty of a "grind", it's the rinse/repeat nature of raiding, and 90% of the pain of raiding is created by your compatriots as they take turns running to the bathroom, taking smoke breaks or having a fap.
You're right. I never said I didnt enjoy most genres. I enjoy SC2, even though I am ambominable at the MP. But some of my friends get into arguments over BF3 and MW3, whne they are based on the same format. Most moder warfare shooters seem to have the same format, like most MMO's. It's like the big game industries have lost most of their imagination. Which is confusing, because Blizzard come up with stuff like Diablo 3 and SC2.
Sorry Six, but Guppy muscled in and finished out the conversation for you, and as work is getting a bit busy now I don't have time to read your explanations though I'm sure you brought up plenty of good points.Sixcess said:
Though one part I did notice while skimming through it was that you said you take Yahtzee's views on MMO's "with a mountain of salt". Pretty sure you mean "grain of salt" as a "mountain of salt" would actually probably be worth a lot of money and thus highly valued...implying that you highly value and agree with his opinions. Buuuuuut that's just the semantics nazi in me speaking up. Gotta use my english degree for something...god knows it doesn't apply to many jobs, apparently. >.>
Only MMO I played was WoW, I was with it from the beginning till the end of content updates for Burning Crusade. That was what, about 4 years or so? And I was in DEEP. I wasn't blowing off commitments and becoming a recluse, but every second of free time that I had was spent in the World of Warcraft.BloatedGuppy said:
So no, I didn't get to play EQ, though I had a couple friends that played it and that's how I know it's nickname of Ever Crack. They couldn't fully explain WHY they were so thoroughly addicted to the game...but at the same time they couldn't deny that they were indeed thoroughly addicted to the game, just like a crackhead.
Diablo and Starcraft weren't particularly innovative even when they were new. Blizzard has never been tremendously innovative. Their hallmark has always been robust mechanics and heavy polish.Sigma Castell said:
Really though, big studios answer to shareholders, and shareholders tend to be risk adverse, which is why you see so many "play it safe" retreads of proven concepts. No one wants to be the one to venture out on a limb and fall to their death. Innovation needs to be driven by independents and small, private studios, and the big studios will continue to steal and refine those ideas once they've become proven hits. It's the circle of life!
RJ 17 said:
WoW was actually a legitimately compelling game in some ways. It was crisp and responsive and easy to learn and play. The art style was friendly, the world was huge, and it was bursting at the seams with content, even if some of that content wasn't particularly propulsive or mechanically sophisticated.RJ 17 said:Only MMO I played was WoW, I was with it from the beginning till the end of content updates for Burning Crusade. That was what, about 4 years or so? And I was in DEEP. I wasn't blowing off commitments and becoming a recluse, but every second of free time that I had was spent in the World of Warcraft.
So no, I didn't get to play EQ, though I had a couple friends that played it and that's how I know it's nickname of Ever Crack. They couldn't fully explain WHY they were so thoroughly addicted to the game...but at the same time they couldn't deny that they were indeed thoroughly addicted to the game, just like a crackhead.
EQ was fascinating and had some truly unique elements that will never be seen again (like its hideous difficulty), but was far more addictive. You'd be squatting in a damp cave for 5 hours doing absolutely nothing but waiting for some rare mob to spawn so you could grab a quest item, and in the back of your mind this whispering voice would be screaming "What on earth am I DOING!?".
If you think MMOs are inherently and universally un-fun, Blizzard would like to have a word with you. And Gpotato. And all the other makers of perfectly successful MMORPGs. Seriously, just because the games don't jive well with you doesn't mean there's something wrong with them. I don't like coffee, but I don't go around saying all coffee makers are doing it wrong and that they need to completely throw away what they're doing now to make me happy. I'll just drink something else.woodaba said:
New types of MMOs are always nice, and we should never stop exploring new ways of doing it. But never say something is inherently wrong because you don't like it, especially when millions around the world like it just fine. That's just ignorant.
God I wish that comic was true....u.uBloatedGuppy said:RJ 17 said:
WoW was actually a legitimately compelling game in some ways. It was crisp and responsive and easy to learn and play. The art style was friendly, the world was huge, and it was bursting at the seams with content, even if some of that content wasn't particularly propulsive or mechanically sophisticated.RJ 17 said:Only MMO I played was WoW, I was with it from the beginning till the end of content updates for Burning Crusade. That was what, about 4 years or so? And I was in DEEP. I wasn't blowing off commitments and becoming a recluse, but every second of free time that I had was spent in the World of Warcraft.
So no, I didn't get to play EQ, though I had a couple friends that played it and that's how I know it's nickname of Ever Crack. They couldn't fully explain WHY they were so thoroughly addicted to the game...but at the same time they couldn't deny that they were indeed thoroughly addicted to the game, just like a crackhead.
EQ was fascinating and had some truly unique elements that will never be seen again (like its hideous difficulty), but was far more addictive. You'd be squatting in a damp cave for 5 hours doing absolutely nothing but waiting for some rare mob to spawn so you could grab a quest item, and in the back of your mind this whispering voice would be screaming "What on earth am I DOING!?".
For the record, I'm an English major with a minor in Writing, so I've at least got a good foundation to reaching my highest aspiration of becoming a successful novelist.As for WoW, like I said, I absolutely loved that game. In truth it was more real life circumstances that kinda forced me to quit than actually WANTING to quit. Right out of college I simply didn't have the time necessary to dedicate to the game, as such I officially became a "reserve" member of the guild I was in. I couldn't be around on a regular basis for raids, but if they needed a spot filled and I was on I was more than welcome to come along. So really I came by less and less and less and finally, about the time that Lich King came out, I was pretty much officially done with it.
Very true. Cataclysm neutered the levelling experience so thoroughly that by level 30 most mobs were dead before they got their special attacks off - no need for interrupts when you can just kill them in seconds. Since I don't really enjoy endgame that's been a major reason I've drifted away from WoW.BloatedGuppy said:
For interesting combat my preferred MMO is City of Heroes - particularly since not only are the enemy groups very diverse, but you have a lot of control over how challenging the missions are. At its most extreme even the most min-maxed and overpowered build will get a fight from taking on some enemy factions in a mission where every mob is 3 levels higher than you and the spawns are set for 8 people. There's no equivalent to that in WoW, other than soloing the 5 mans or older raids.
Runescape would be the revolution if it removed skill grinding and make quests give skill-ups instead, as well as mini-games and certain monsters under special conditions. This is what Runescape does right:
Quests are story driven, have meaningful impact on the game world, and only a few are of the "Kill X bring back Y" type. Combat, while extremely simple, is the most challenging I've seen in an MMO. Many high level fights require strict positioning and inventory management, with consequences for mistakes. Finally, community, something many modern MMO's lack, is actively encouraged. Players can use their character on any server. There is also an easy-to-use clan system, with many activities benefiting from its use.
Problem is it takes an inhuman amount of hours to be eligible for all of its content.
Quests are story driven, have meaningful impact on the game world, and only a few are of the "Kill X bring back Y" type. Combat, while extremely simple, is the most challenging I've seen in an MMO. Many high level fights require strict positioning and inventory management, with consequences for mistakes. Finally, community, something many modern MMO's lack, is actively encouraged. Players can use their character on any server. There is also an easy-to-use clan system, with many activities benefiting from its use.
Problem is it takes an inhuman amount of hours to be eligible for all of its content.
MMOs aren't fun? Huh, tell that to the millions who are still playing WoW. Myself included. I'm still having fun since Burning Crusade. I just take breaks every once in a while to keep myself from getting burnt out on it.
I think the more likely answer is that you just haven't found an MMO that you like, or MMOs just aren't your thing.
"Hammering number keys in a specific order"
Well, sure if all you do is dps in groups. That's probably the most formulaic thing you can do. Healing and tanking require more situational awareness. But if all you do is raids and dungeons then you're definitely going to get bored of it.
In WoW's defense, come Cata they took out a lot of the 20 bear asses quests and replaced them with quests in which "you ride around in a van and solve mysteries" to quote Yahtzee. I recently got Loremaster a few weeks ago, and I gotta say, some of the new low-level zones are awesomely fun.
I think the more likely answer is that you just haven't found an MMO that you like, or MMOs just aren't your thing.
"Hammering number keys in a specific order"
Well, sure if all you do is dps in groups. That's probably the most formulaic thing you can do. Healing and tanking require more situational awareness. But if all you do is raids and dungeons then you're definitely going to get bored of it.
In WoW's defense, come Cata they took out a lot of the 20 bear asses quests and replaced them with quests in which "you ride around in a van and solve mysteries" to quote Yahtzee. I recently got Loremaster a few weeks ago, and I gotta say, some of the new low-level zones are awesomely fun.
I remember playing Guild Wars and even if it had "find this guy and gather this many things" type quests, i remember loving the dialogue, the NPC's conversations, the incredible music and surroundings, and the story.
But the thing i loved the most was the incredible universe. I loved every race, every class. I loved every single place you could visit (not every single one, considering there are some enemies that left scars within me... deep deep scars).
The only thing that for me was left out from place, was the fact there was not really much to do by the time you were over (not counting the pvp. I love pve way more and thus i'm grabbing to that aspect). Sure you had couple of "gather this many things" quests, but i hated those. I loved the ones in wich you did cool things, like riding a giant scorpion, sneaking past guards to save people, or using the surroundings to damage the enemies (siege weapons and so on).
I loved those, and gw2 with the new dynamic events and new kinds of quests and thread your own adventure really appeals me. It's like telling me "Hey we grabbed the thing you love the most and changed the core mechanic in a way you will love it waaaaaaaaaay more, with new places, new possibilities and way morestuff to do!".
Yes i admit mmorpg's are not for everyone, and it's hard to find one you like. But for me Guild Wars 2 is what i was searching for, it's a sequel to a game i loved and still love, and dedicated so much time.
The reason i stopped playing the first one, was because after i leveled all my characters and did the story so many tiems, and re-did the story + expansions so many times (i love helping weaker players and teaching them the mechanics, or at least help people who are re-starting the game), i was left with nothing to do, no objective.
I will play Guild Wars 2 because it gives me a main goal in a universe i love, and i know even after i am done i will have fun with the dungeons, i will get new dynamic events, and i will definitly re-play this experience multiple times.
Hope people don't see this the wrong way. I love Guild Wars. I fell in love since the beginning. And yeah... i guess it's the fanboyinsm talking, but i consider this game to be fun
But the thing i loved the most was the incredible universe. I loved every race, every class. I loved every single place you could visit (not every single one, considering there are some enemies that left scars within me... deep deep scars).
The only thing that for me was left out from place, was the fact there was not really much to do by the time you were over (not counting the pvp. I love pve way more and thus i'm grabbing to that aspect). Sure you had couple of "gather this many things" quests, but i hated those. I loved the ones in wich you did cool things, like riding a giant scorpion, sneaking past guards to save people, or using the surroundings to damage the enemies (siege weapons and so on).
I loved those, and gw2 with the new dynamic events and new kinds of quests and thread your own adventure really appeals me. It's like telling me "Hey we grabbed the thing you love the most and changed the core mechanic in a way you will love it waaaaaaaaaay more, with new places, new possibilities and way morestuff to do!".
Yes i admit mmorpg's are not for everyone, and it's hard to find one you like. But for me Guild Wars 2 is what i was searching for, it's a sequel to a game i loved and still love, and dedicated so much time.
The reason i stopped playing the first one, was because after i leveled all my characters and did the story so many tiems, and re-did the story + expansions so many times (i love helping weaker players and teaching them the mechanics, or at least help people who are re-starting the game), i was left with nothing to do, no objective.
I will play Guild Wars 2 because it gives me a main goal in a universe i love, and i know even after i am done i will have fun with the dungeons, i will get new dynamic events, and i will definitly re-play this experience multiple times.
Hope people don't see this the wrong way. I love Guild Wars. I fell in love since the beginning. And yeah... i guess it's the fanboyinsm talking, but i consider this game to be fun