The shallow world of Popular Culture.

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Lyx

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Sep 19, 2010
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By the way - that many people refer to this stuff as "noise", does not just apply in a derogatory way - it in terms of audio-characteristics actually is true: Nowadays popmusic is mixed in a way, that rapes soundquality... starting with compressing against a brickwall so hard, that with every drumhit you can hear the "pumping" - or worse: distortion. Next up, we have the fact that nowadays music is close to mono, for the very same reason: if you have the levels always at the limit, there isn't much room left to do that thing called "stereo" :) Get a good pair of loudspeakers (not a surround system or computer speakers), play a current top20 song, then play a top20 song from the 80ies.... and go "holy shit! what the hell happened?".

If you want to know more about this, just search the net for "loudness war".
 

MiracleOfSound

Fight like a Krogan
Jan 3, 2009
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SimuLord said:
- Is popular music a case of "we'll build it and they won't know any better so they'll love every bit of it if we market it as 'cool' enough?"
- Or are music trends driven by the listeners, in which case people actually DEMAND and LIKE this insipid garbage?
- If tomorrow Top 40 disappeared, to be replaced by something a whole lot less annoying, would tweens buy Mozart if you played it in malls and put a whole bunch of Mozart merch in all the mall stores I don't shop at but my friends with kids that age say are all the rage?
As a musician who has seen the ins and outs of the industry for almost ten years now, I can offer some opinions here.

-Pop music these days is simply a selling a brand. It has no creativity, soul or passion. They are selling the performer as opposed to the music. If the song is catchy it's a bonus, but it all comes down to live shows, video rotation and merchandise (this is why so many musicians release perfumes and other asinine products with their names on it)

-Autotune is the bane of pop music as it allows non-talented performers to have records. They can pick any pretty boy/slutty teen girl off the street, give them a haircut and basically press a 'magic good singing' button. except it's not good, it sounds like robots.

It's thoroughly depressing to be honest. I spent the whole day yesterday listening to 70s and 80s pop - Fleetwood Mac, Guns N Roses, Billy Idol, SIster Of Mercy... bands that wouldn't even get a record deal these days.

As for the Black Eyed Peas.... worst of the worst. They loot, pillage and plunder other peoples' material and make novelty hits from it. In fact they've been sued a few times by little known bands they stole songs from.
 

MiracleOfSound

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Jan 3, 2009
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Lyx said:
If you want to know more about this, just search the net for "loudness war".
This is another thing that is ruining recorded music.

Listen to a rock album from the 70s or even 90s and you'll hear clear stereo definition, a range of dynamics and differences in volume levels, vocals that sit on top of the mix clearly, little scuffs and the squeak of bass drum pedal... nowadays everything is just squashed into a mastering compressor so hard that it just sounds like a fucking sine wave.
 

The Artificially Prolonged

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Jul 15, 2008
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I don't listen to radio much so I don't have to listen to pop music much however whenever I hear any of the top pop songs I have a hard time telling any of them apart they sound all very similar, which leads me to my main problem with pop music at the moment is that there is little variety in style and genres in the charts which I think is a shame.

Stay positive though we're due a change in pop music scene in the next year or so
 

NaramSuen

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Jun 8, 2010
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Kortney said:
People would of said very similar things, if not the same things, as you are saying fifty years ago.
My thoughts exactly. I grew up in the 80s and there was a lot of bad pop music, but my younger brother looks upon the decade as being the pinnacle of music and can't understand why all current pop music sucks. As a teenager I was very envious of those older than me because they got to grow up in the 70s and 70s pop music was awesome. That is until a classmate in university started to list all the crap that was on constant rotation when she was growing up. It is Sturgeon's Law - 90% of everything is crap! We remember the 10% and blank out the rest. SimuLord, you spent half an hour being subjected to a sample of the current crop of crap, if you stuck around you might of found a diamond among the turds.
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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SimuLord said:
1. Is popular music a case of "we'll build it and they won't know any better so they'll love every bit of it if we market it as 'cool' enough?"
2. Or are music trends driven by the listeners, in which case people actually DEMAND and LIKE this insipid garbage?
3. If tomorrow Top 40 disappeared, to be replaced by something a whole lot less annoying, would tweens buy Mozart if you played it in malls and put a whole bunch of Mozart merch in all the mall stores I don't shop at but my friends with kids that age say are all the rage?
Your OP as well as many of the responses are pretty heavily loaded with bias but since you had the courtesy to mention my name I'll do my best. All these questions are essentially the same one though, so I should be able to answer it in one big tl;dr run-on babble. So here we go.

1. What you've got to look at here is this: in music, who decides what's "cool"? When it comes to music, believe it or not, it's the people who are listening to it and buying it who determine that. This sort of thing doesn't come from above. If something like Ke$ha came out in 1920, nobody would have bought it regardless of marketing or whatever, not because it's musically simple but because the musical culture wasn't ready for it. Something like Tik Tok is in fact a hell of a lot more adventurous than any popular music from that period, and would have been perceived as "too experimental" for the time. What you also have to remember, and what critics of pop music consistently forget, is that for every Ke$ha, there were 1,000 wannabe Ke$has who didn't make it. Now if it was really simply a case of people not knowing better as long as the marketing was okay, the companies involved would throw the correct amount of dollars at all of it and ALL of those 1,000 Ke$has would have made a career out of it too. Obviously, only one did, so then you've got to ask yourself, what set that particular Ke$ha apart from all the others? Well...

2. ...people actually liked the songs more. Seriously, it doesn't matter how heavily you market something, if people like it they will buy it and if they don't, they won't. Sure, clever marketing will sell a few copies at the beginning but as soon as word spreads the sales will die fast if the product isn't something people want. So in other words, every single song that stays on the charts for a reasonable amount of time is something that people actually genuinely like. And that's why...

3. ...the hypothetical scenario about Mozart is a definite no. Classical music failed to stake a claim in the popular music stakes for decades because popular culture drifted away and the most powerful exponents of that type of music made little effort to really catch up until they had well and truly lost the ball. Nowadays the genre is so full of stuffy, cloying conservatism that all someone has to do to make waves is spike their hair a bit, or show a bit of cleavage. This type of vibe is not going to appeal to most young people, who would rather hear about Ke$ha brushing her teeth with JD (although she obviously doesn't actually do or condone that, it's a tongue-in-cheek line which will probably forever be misunderstood).

All the other complaining in this thread about Auto-tune, the war on loudness, record companies, musicians with minimal talent who can't sing (jesus christ since when is that new, ever heard much blues from the 1920s?) or whatever else destroying or jeopardising music is total music-snob nonsense and barely worth a reply, other than to say if you don't like that sort of music, listen to other music. It's not like there isn't a ton of choice out there. So what if the stuff you like isn't as popular as some other stuff. Hey, if it was, half of the population of this place would write hate-threads about it just to renew their nihilistic Internet Kool Klub membership.
 

Lyx

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Sep 19, 2010
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Thanks for reinforcing my opinion, that people working in the industry don't have a clue. I'm a snob for prefering stereo over mono? Marketing doesn't matter? I want some of the stuff you're smoking.
 

Sp3ratus

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Lyx said:
Thanks for reinforcing my opinion, that people working in the industry don't have a clue. I'm a snob for prefering stereo over mono? Marketing doesn't matter? I want some of the stuff you're smoking.
Where exactly is BonsaiK stating that you're a snob because you prefer stereo over mono? Nowhere, as far as I can see. All he's saying is that all the condescending attitudes prevalent in this thread towards this sort of music is snobbish, since you're always free to listen to whatever you like. I'll go out on a limb here and say that no one here are being forced to listen to music they don't like, at least not on a regular basis.

Marketing might not be entirely irrelevant, but that's not what he's saying either, he's saying that marketing can't make up for something that people won't like, and make them buy it.

Personally, I used to be a metalhead and look down on "lesser" forms on music, but I've since moved on and realized that it was pretty stupid. People will listen to what they want, what good will come from you "hating" on it? As stated before, don't like it, don't listen to it.
 

Sarah Frazier

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Dec 7, 2010
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To answer the original questions:

- Is popular music a case of "we'll build it and they won't know any better so they'll love every bit of it if we market it as 'cool' enough?"
- Or are music trends driven by the listeners, in which case people actually DEMAND and LIKE this insipid garbage?

Yes and no. It first starts off with large groups of people listening to one band/genre over others, then the marketers see this and start looking for more music like what's popular and start selling that hoping to get a piece of the cash pie. It drowns out other types of music until some underground movement happens that makes those popular and BAM! You have a new trend of popular music that's played to death.

- If tomorrow Top 40 disappeared, to be replaced by something a whole lot less annoying, would tweens buy Mozart if you played it in malls and put a whole bunch of Mozart merch in all the mall stores I don't shop at but my friends with kids that age say are all the rage?

Probably not. Just playing music won't guarantee that anyone will like it, just as you were forced to listen to pop and found it annoying. Maybe some people will come to enjoy older music, but only because they don't have much else to listen to.
 

Lyx

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Sep 19, 2010
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Sp3ratus said:
Where exactly is BonsaiK stating that you're a snob because you prefer stereo over mono?
It pays off to read the backlog:

Lyx:
Next up, we have the fact that nowadays music is close to mono, for the very same reason: if you have the levels always at the limit, there isn't much room left to do that thing called "stereo" :) Get a good pair of loudspeakers (not a surround system or computer speakers), play a current top20 song, then play a top20 song from the 80ies.... and go "holy shit! what the hell happened?". If you want to know more about this, just search the net for "loudness war".
MiracleOfSound:
Listen to a rock album from the 70s or even 90s and you'll hear clear stereo definition, a range of dynamics and differences in volume levels, vocals that sit on top of the mix clearly, little scuffs and the squeak of bass drum pedal... nowadays everything is just squashed into a mastering compressor so hard that it just sounds like a fucking sine wave.
BonsaiK:
All the other complaining in this thread about Auto-tune, the war on loudness, record companies, musicians with minimal talent who can't sing (jesus christ since when is that new, ever heard much blues from the 1920s?) or whatever else destroying or jeopardising music is total music-snob nonsense and barely worth a reply,
Summary: Two people complain about a regression in soundquality that isn't some minor nitpicking, but instead trashing soundquality all across the board - to the point where the stereofield collapses. And this "expert" is telling them that they're "total music-snob nonsense and barely worth a reply".

Oh by the way - why is the above done? Imaginary marketing benefit... the marketing that supposedly doesnt matter much.
 

Thaliur

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Jan 3, 2008
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SimuLord said:
- Is popular music a case of "we'll build it and they won't know any better so they'll love every bit of it if we market it as 'cool' enough?"
- If tomorrow Top 40 disappeared, to be replaced by something a whole lot less annoying, would tweens buy Mozart if you played it in malls and put a whole bunch of Mozart merch in all the mall stores I don't shop at but my friends with kids that age say are all the rage?
These two, I think, but also listeners' preference to some amount, at least after conditioning.
 

Small Waves

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Nov 14, 2009
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BonsaiK said:
What you also have to remember, and what critics of pop music consistently forget, is that for every Ke$ha, there were 1,000 wannabe Ke$has who didn't make it. Now if it was really simply a case of people not knowing better as long as the marketing was okay, the companies involved would throw the correct amount of dollars at all of it and ALL of those 1,000 Ke$has would have made a career out of it too. Obviously, only one did, so then you've got to ask yourself, what set that particular Ke$ha apart from all the others? Well...

2. ...people actually liked the songs more.
Trying to find a new Ke$ha or an artist with a "talent" as "unique" as her would prove difficult, and even if they did, they know that they would be a violent backlash from the public for trying to push a Ke$ha-esque artist, even if the artist has had a career longer than her.

Take Uffie, for example. You might know her best for Justice's "Tthhee Ppaarrttyy" from 2007 ot 2006's "Pop the Glock", which was released again in 2009. Sleezy lyrics, insufferable voice, very mixed professional reviews, and autotuned up the asshole. She was doing EXACTLY what Ke$ha does and had a modestly sized following years before Ke$ha was known by the public (she wouldn't release a single until 2009). Now we have to ask: Why is Ke$ha the multi-million seller while Uffie is ignored? There are several reasons:

1. Location, location, location

America's music industry is able to hype up and artist and give them their rise to fame faster than any other country in the world. We have time and time again turned nobodies into big stars almost overnight. Obviously, American record labels are not going to look for their next big money maker anywhere outside the U.S., so they were never going to find Uffie, who lives in Paris and associates herself with underground acts. There was NO WAY in hell she would tour America and leave her guest work and solo career behind for a country where she has little to no name recognition.

Luckily for the RCA record label, there was a girl named Kesha Rose Sebert, a Nashville girl who did the exactly same thing as her: Dirty pop music and a perverse fashion sense.


2. Beating them to the punch

Even if record labels did search out in other countries and continents for new talent and uncovered Uffie, they would bee too late to sign her up. Uffie has already been apart of the esteemed dance music label, Ed Banger Records, since 2006. Elektra Records has only just now got the rights to release her material over in the States, probably to cash in on what Ke$ha already popularized in the U.S. for over a year now.


Seriously, it doesn't matter how heavily you market something, if people like it they will buy it and if they don't, they won't. Sure, clever marketing will sell a few copies at the beginning but as soon as word spreads the sales will die fast if the product isn't something people want. So in other words, every single song that stays on the charts for a reasonable amount of time is something that people actually genuinely like.

But that's completely wrong, because her rise to fame came from...

3. Getting your name out

Kesha was performing guest spots on albums and performing back-up on live shows for Paris Hilton, The Veronica's, Flo Rida, and Britney Spears, and also appeared in Katy Perry's music video for "I Kissed a Girl". Meanwhile, as I said earlier, Uffie worked in the underground scene, but still gained media exposure for Pop the Glock, Tthhee Ppaarrttyy, and ADD SUV.

Whereas Ke$ha was immediately paired up with high-profile artists, Uffie got her rise to fame through working with people in the niche-oriented label and started a buzz through word of mouth and many singles, whereas Kesha was signed onto a multi-album contract because of the success of ONE single made by ANOTHER artist. This really says a lot as to how the music industry in the states view artists. The moment that one reaches even brushes up with success, they get their contracts out and sign them up at Godspeed.

If all it took was word of mouth, we would have been bombarded with Animal Collective, Grizzly Bear, Tegan and Sara, Neutral Milk Hotel, James Blake, and Wavves. In a perfect world, it would take more than being the flavor of the month or a major contract to get radio play. Most people are completely sheltered and have limited commercial exposure to bands that are not being played in rotation on the air, or get a single at most (Fleet Foxes' "White Winter Hymnal" and Warpaint's "Undertoe" come to mind immediately).

People cannot love something it has never heard. The general public is sheltered and clueless, and is only embracing EDM just now when it has been everywhere in Europe for almost two decades. They're more excited about the types of music they are getting a taste of rather than the artists, who, for the most part, are complete crap by genre standards. If it's poppy enough, then labels will clamor over each other to be the ones to put them on label.


4. The music industry: Musical progression vs. Taking chances

Big labels no longer treat artists as artists, but instead as bets. They find someone who is creating a small buzz, sign them on a multi-million dollar contract, and then PRAY for their impulsiveness to pay off and drown them in a sea of money.

This isn't business. It's fucking gambling, and only a very small number of labels can take the risk, and they are, of course, the big name labels who can turn any ordinary joe into a pop superstar. Instead of searching out artists with legitimate talent and musical integrity, they dumpster dive looking for something of value. If they can't find anything, they can always muscle in on desirable artists on smaller labels and pressure them to cancel their contracts and join their label with promises of wealth and fame, and the moment they get too "non-commercial", they hack them off.


Speaking of cutting off artists who were thought to be not commercially viable, remember when Wilco was dropped by Reprise Records because of how they thought Yankee Hotel Foxtrot was going to bomb, and then ended up selling millions of copies? That was mighty embarrassing for them.

Or how about when Dick Rowe of Decca Records rejecting The Beatles back in the 1960s and opting to sign on Brian Poole and the Tremoloes because he believed Rock wasn't the future?

For a more recent example of labels making stupid choices, let's talk about Kanye West. It's hard to imagine that anyone would have turned down a producer who helped saved Jay-Z's career from going in the pits and helped make The Blueprint a hallmark of the genre. But there were many labels who did, such as Capitol Record, because some guy came in as he was about to sign on and said "He'll never sell" and left it at that. Meanwhile, other labels wouldn't sign him on because he didn't do gangsta rap, which was still the "big thing".

These screw-ups are very telling of the state of pop music: Shun anything that can be considered even remotely challenging or different, and keep shoveling out the same shit people have been tired of for years or hop on trends (see Brittany Spear's new Wubstep single).



Auto-tune is not the problem. The Loudness War is not the problem. The labels and the way they view artists as a bag of money with a dollar sign is what it plaguing music today. They are much more content and comfortable at force-feeding trends instead of trying to spark new ones, which is why most of the recent year-end lists are made mostly out of independent or small-label releases. Nobody who takes music seriously would put on My World, Recovery, or Teenage Dream at the year-end's list, but instead they'll hail records like My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, The Archandroid, Innerspeaker, Cosmogramma, This Is Happening, and Have One on Me for their left-field thinking polished sound, and musical flexibility. While the first two records have very wide public exposure, that will not be enough to save the image of mainstream music in the 10s. For every Kanye West, we have three deplorable artists or bands, such as the castrated Eminem, the girly-sounding Justin Bieber, and Best Coast, which is Vivian Girls if Vivian Girls was shit.
 

The_Blue_Rider

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Sep 4, 2009
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Novs said:
The_Blue_Rider said:
Ever think maybe its popular because its good? And that people i dunno, Like it?? People do enjoy it, my main preference for music is rock and metal but im not saying theyre any better than other genres, i like the occasional pop song because a lot of them are good, its just its not really my type of music
People enjoy because they dont know anything else, its like walking into a cafeteria not looking at what your being given.
Yeah I will say that a lot of people are into it because of that, but people do actually enjoy this music, if they enjoy it fine, the people i dislike are the ones who spend all their time whining about how pop music is terrible and blah blah blah,
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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- Is popular music a case of "we'll build it and they won't know any better so they'll love every bit of it if we market it as 'cool' enough?"
Music is a business, so its supply and demand. You gauge the interest and sell to the demographically. So basically yeah, they do. I mean, hey, its like our music. Kids today dont like it or say its not cool, but our generation thinks its the shit. I mean, I love Smashing Pumpkins, and kids today say whats so cool about a bald guy who sings with a screeching voice. Or when I say I like Alice in Chains tehy say... well.. they say who are they first, then they say whats so cool about a guy that died of an OD. ANd of course I have to smack everyone upside the head so they learn some respect

- Or are music trends driven by the listeners, in which case people actually DEMAND and LIKE this insipid garbage?
They are, but how you explain that and with Grunge I dont know. Maybe its cause everyone was dying. BUt all business is fueled by supply and demand. Thats Econ 101. Dont owrry, in thenext generation everyone will use autotune and something more annoying will pop up and kids today will hate it and the kids of that generation will love it and people of this and previous generations will shake their heads and talk about bands no longer relevant or playing and show their age and sound like old annoying men who start everyhting out with "When I was your age..."

- If tomorrow Top 40 disappeared, to be replaced by something a whole lot less annoying, would tweens buy Mozart if you played it in malls and put a whole bunch of Mozart merch in all the mall stores I don't shop at but my friends with kids that age say are all the rage?
No, you still have them performing live and the CDs. Every generation like sto rebel, go against the cultures and musciains of their parents. Its how you roll (except for stuff like Gn'R, The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Things like that, those appearantly are cool to kids today and speak to them).

OT: well... I guess more OT. Original thought, we'll go with that.

OrTh: This is why I dont venture outside the alt rock/rock groups anymore. Everything got popped or rapped or R&B'd (beyonce and Kanye like to say thats what they are from time to time). So I'll stick with my 90s rock and grunge, as well as the stuff before, thank you very much.
 

SimuLord

Whom Gods Annoy
Aug 20, 2008
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Lyx said:
Thanks for reinforcing my opinion, that people working in the industry don't have a clue. I'm a snob for prefering stereo over mono? Marketing doesn't matter? I want some of the stuff you're smoking.
All due respect to BonsaiK, because he's actually on the front lines (albeit fighting for the enemy in the war on civilization), but I'm with Lyx.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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Wow, this sounds in no way like everyone has sounded about the generation beneath them and their music.

The truly bad will be forgotten, the good will be remembered, everyone will go home happy. I know lots of people who swear the 80s were the best decade ever, but my parents lived it and swear the music was shit and the nostalgia is all wrong. The nineties had some absolutely balkls music, but also some of the best, the 70s had the real primes of Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, but also disco (which again, some people swear by), the 60s was balanced out by good rockers and awful psychadelic shit.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be and in acouple of decades everyone will have forgotten what is considered crap now, and will instead be railing against whatever the new hip thing is. I think it is truly a sign of age when you start to think like this, because after thinking like this comes traditionalism, after which comes Conservatism.

I hope I die before I get old.