The Sonic Problem.

[ranger19]

So with the latest release of Sonic: Unleashed, I started thinking about the Sonic series as a whole. Sonic is a franchise I hold dear to my heart; it was the original Sonic the Hedgehog that was the very first videogame I ever played. I always had a ton of fun with it, and have started to ponder why the series has sunk almost to a point of constant mockery.

One caveat I would like to mention first is that despite it's reputation, there have been *some* decent Sonic games in the past few years. Most notably, Sonic Rush on the DS was an excellent title that showed that 2D Sonic can be just as great as it was back in the days of the Genesis. This was followed later by a sequel, Sonic Rush Adventure, that while I have not personally played, has had solid reviews too.

So where did Sonic go wrong? In my opinion, the last truly great (console) Sonic game was the Dreamcast's Sonic Adventure. Yep, the first one. Its sequel (SA2/SA2B), while improving in some ways on the first, never quite did it for me as much as the original game. Several ideas from the original Sonic Adventure come to mind that made the game particularly good, and it is these elements that later Sonic games miss that I think if returned to the series would bring it back into the limelight.

First: Character Selection. If you remember on the original Sonic Adventure, you started with just Sonic available to play, but quickly (within the first few levels) unlocked all the other characters. You then could play through each character's story individually at your leisure: if you wanted to do Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, etc all in this order, you could. If you wanted to skip to the E-102 stages, you could do that too. Don't feel like Emerald Hunting (or for that matter, in the mood to hunt)? Not a problem.

This is one of the things that I disliked most about Sonic Adventure 2 - it lacked the ability to choose what to do in the story. Sometimes, I just had the urge to play a few Sonic levels at high speeds, but instead was stuck as Knuckles looking around for emeralds. And if I was stuck, I was stuck, and couldn't proceed in the story. Yuck.

This also allows for another benefit: it seems that Sonic Team just can't help themselves and add in characters that few people actually care about (see: Werehog, Silver). In the original Sonic Adventure, you could avoid playing as characters you didn't want to by simply not choosing them. Sure, if you wanted to unlock the last level or get everything out of the game, you would have to play them eventually, but at least they're not in your way. (Though I will forever want them to bring back Big the Cat. He was awesome.)

Second: The Chao Garden. Hatching eggs, collecting animals, raising Chaos was all ridiculously addicting. I'm sure I'm not the only one who stayed up all night trying to get enough green animals to make a Sonic chao. It was a ton of fun, and added hours upon hours of replayability onto the game.

Third: Multiplayer. This is one place I think SA2B surpassed its predecessor. The main racing levels were the core of the multiplayer, and if you and your opponent were equally matched, it would be intense as your characters move step-in-step with each other. Sure, Amy was broken as all heck, but the idea was a lot of fun and if improved on would be great. I would even advocate dropping the Kart racing parts all together and focus on the races; though emerald hunting could stay if it wanted to.

Finally: Chaos. Chaos was one of the best bosses in a Sonic game, hands down. Sure, when Robotnik stole the emeralds you just retrieved it was annoying, but the fights with Chaos were all varied and fun, and Perfect Chaos was one heck of a battle. If they could manage a story with a cohesive reason to have Chaos back, it could work out well. This is the least important of the points, but could be fun.

So.. thoughts? Agree? Disagree? Let me know.

 

[GloatingSwine]

I disagree, the problem is one that is VERY SIMPLE.

Speed. what made Rush fun? Speed. What makes most 3D sonic games bad? okay crap combat, bugs and the wrong type of platforming, but also they aren't FAST. Unleashed is at least fast, I liked it, it was a good game, people are blowing the Werehog out of proportion, it was not bad. Not at all.

This is the Sonic Problem.

What makes the 3D sonic games crap? Speed. Sonic moves too fast for the camera to keep up with him, small adjustments to his course provoke wild careenings into walls, most of the levels devolve into minimally interactive lines for Sonic to run along, or ring or boost plate sequences where input from the player is not required in the slightest, jumps are imprecise because of Sonic's momentum and inability to stop after a jump, and any challenge is substituted for cheap instant death on all sides of the long and thin and uninteresting level

Really, go back to Sonic 1 and play Scrap Brain zone Spring Yard zone or Labyrinth zone and see how often you can build up speed. It's not very often at all, because you need to stop and time jumps and explore for rings and do actual skillful technical things.

This is the problem with Sonic. Every single game that comes out, the howling masses in the audience complain that it's not fast enough, so they make the next one faster, and the controls get worse, the camera gets worse, the interactivity drops, and the deaths get cheaper.

The next person who says that the problem with Sonic these days is that he is not fast enough better sleep lightly tonight, because I will hunt you down.

 

[Skarvey]

why do we need rpg elements? its a sonic game, i don't need a hub world, i don't need a werehog, or a bunch of different playable characters, i need speed, fun locales, and a chao garden thats all.

 

[Graham]

I think both of these points are valid: speed was what made Sonic fun to play in 2D, but speed adds a slew of technical problems once it is translated into 3D.

So should Sonic not be in 3D? 2D games for handhelds would be a respectable place for him that could handle his blur-inducing speed while still offering a popular distribution... just a thought.

I think the 2.5D approach to sections of Sonic Unleashed seems like a logical way to keep players involved while keeping the visuals fully 3D. Personally, I haven't played Sonic Unleashed yet, so I can't vouche one way or the other on the Werehog, but this concept seems to have the potential to keep Sonic fun on our current consoles.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Yikes, smelling some hostility here...

Never a huge Sonic person after the original Genesis games, but I do vaguely remember someone in a previous topic suggesting it's blending with elements of battle racing, the best example of this off the top of my head being F-Zero with the opportunity to stop and explore the tracks/levels. You race the enemies/bosses even as you fight them- something which was apparently attempted in Adventure 2's final battle against Shadow (never played, it might not have turned out well).
THE Sonic Problem is certainly A problem but I think this would reduce it's annoyance factor. Lastly, F-Zero mocks the laws of gravity with all it's tracks- so long as he maintains speed Sonic should be able to as well, running up walls and such.

 

[Graham]

Yikes, smelling some hostility here...

Never a huge Sonic person after the original Genesis games, but I do vaguely remember someone in a previous topic suggesting it's blending with elements of battle racing, the best example of this off the top of my head being F-Zero with the opportunity to stop and explore the tracks/levels. You race the enemies/bosses even as you fight them- something which was apparently attempted in Adventure 2's final battle against Shadow (never played, it might not have turned out well).
THE Sonic Problem is certainly A problem but I think this would reduce it's annoyance factor. Lastly, F-Zero mocks the laws of gravity with all it's tracks- so long as he maintains speed Sonic should be able to as well, running up walls and such.

Could this idea play out somewhat like The Club sans-guns?

Cause that might not be too bad.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Is that a threat Swine?

It's a sign of exasperation at an old canard trotted out once again. It's as if the "lolnotfastenuf" response is the result of pavlovian conditioning whenever anyone mentions the word "Sonic" and has entirely replaced a considered response based on the qualities the games actually used to hold when they were widely respected. Which was not speed, it was rewarding exploration and multiple paths through levels with "speed" mostly taking the form of short sections of linearity, which were rarely the only or even most rewarding way to approach a level section.

 

[Toiboi]

the keep trying to make it cool and edgy its a freakin kids game make it a cuttie and speedy platform dont make sonic something its not.

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

Are you suggesting we "solve" the sonic problem, 'cause I know a couple guys that can "solve" it for you *looks around shiftily*

 

[Jumplion]

I disagree, the problem is one that is VERY SIMPLE.

Speed. what made Rush fun? Speed. What makes most 3D sonic games bad? okay crap combat, bugs and the wrong type of platforming, but also they aren't FAST. Unleashed is at least fast, I liked it, it was a good game, people are blowing the Werehog out of proportion, it was not bad. Not at all.

This is the Sonic Problem.

What makes the 3D sonic games crap? Speed. Sonic moves too fast for the camera to keep up with him, small adjustments to his course provoke wild careenings into walls, most of the levels devolve into minimally interactive lines for Sonic to run along, or ring or boost plate sequences where input from the player is not required in the slightest, jumps are imprecise because of Sonic's momentum and inability to stop after a jump, and any challenge is substituted for cheap instant death on all sides of the long and thin and uninteresting level

Really, go back to Sonic 1 and play Scrap Brain zone Spring Yard zone or Labyrinth zone and see how often you can build up speed. It's not very often at all, because you need to stop and time jumps and explore for rings and do actual skillful technical things.

This is the problem with Sonic. Every single game that comes out, the howling masses in the audience complain that it's not fast enough, so they make the next one faster, and the controls get worse, the camera gets worse, the interactivity drops, and the deaths get cheaper.

The next person who says that the problem with Sonic these days is that he is not fast enough better sleep lightly tonight, because I will hunt you down.

I completely agree with you, though with some modifications.

Most Sonic games, SEGA gets the speed part right. It's just that they try to force something new on something that isn't broken!

In Sonic Heroes, it was Co-Op play and combat
In SHadow the Hedgehog is was gunplay and combat.
In Sonic Adventure they try a sortof open world thing with some puzzle elements, and combat.
And did I mention in every game they try to force us combat?

Yeah...combat...

They get the speed part right, it's just that they get everything else wrong (like controls and combat and camera and combat and combat....and combat)

 

[ranger19]

I disagree, the problem is one that is VERY SIMPLE.

Speed. what made Rush fun? Speed. What makes most 3D sonic games bad? okay crap combat, bugs and the wrong type of platforming, but also they aren't FAST. Unleashed is at least fast, I liked it, it was a good game, people are blowing the Werehog out of proportion, it was not bad. Not at all.


Although I do miss the Chao Garden. Cute little guys.

In a way, I agree, and I forgot to mention this in the original post. I like the speed, but in my opinion Sonic Adventure had fun parts that weren't speed (though the speed is what sold the game). So if Sonic Team is going to be determined to have parts that are not speed, this is what they should do.

If the game was all speed, it could be criticized as being a game where "all you do is hold up", or invariably that it's too short, so I can understand their desire to put non-speed elements in.

EDIT: I wrote this without refreshing the thread, so I have a bunch more responses to add in. Thanks for all the input.

What makes the 3D sonic games crap? Speed. Sonic moves too fast for the camera to keep up with him, small adjustments to his course provoke wild careenings into walls, most of the levels devolve into minimally interactive lines for Sonic to run along, or ring or boost plate sequences where input from the player is not required in the slightest, jumps are imprecise because of Sonic's momentum and inability to stop after a jump, and any challenge is substituted for cheap instant death on all sides of the long and thin and uninteresting level

Really, go back to Sonic 1 and play Scrap Brain zone Spring Yard zone or Labyrinth zone and see how often you can build up speed. It's not very often at all, because you need to stop and time jumps and explore for rings and do actual skillful technical things.

This is the problem with Sonic. Every single game that comes out, the howling masses in the audience complain that it's not fast enough, so they make the next one faster, and the controls get worse, the camera gets worse, the interactivity drops, and the deaths get cheaper.

The next person who says that the problem with Sonic these days is that he is not fast enough better sleep lightly tonight, because I will hunt you down.

While I agree with you to some extent, I really think speed is an integral part of the series. Definitely not the only thing, but an important part. Games like Sonic Rush have shown that speed can make it a lot of fun, so I think short bursts of speed could work.

why do we need rpg elements? its a sonic game, i don't need a hub world, i don't need a werehog, or a bunch of different playable characters, i need speed, fun locales, and a chao garden thats all.

I believe this is in reference to Sonic and the Secret Rings? I rented that game, and I believe there were RPG elements.. I didn't like that part. And I agree. Though if by a "hub world" you mean the adventure areas of Sonic Adventure, I didn't think they were that bad. The puzzles weren't too hard and it fleshed out the world, etc.

 

[Mr.Pandah]

Linear levels with multiple paths to make it not linear. I don't see whats wrong with doing something like say...Crash Bandicoot style when hes being chased by the boulder. Behind the back, running forward and maybe taking a path off to the side from time to time with an occasional enemy to go toe-to-toe with. Put a lot of gaps and what not to jump over and you have a Sonic game. Its not that freakin hard SEGA.

 

[SidVicious]

You know what I think would really be a good move for the next Sonic game?

Make it sidescrolling again. Sure, it can keep 3-D graphics, just take away the stupid behind-the-character view. The only good Sonic games were the sidescrolling ones.

 

[51gunner]

I disagree, the problem is one that is VERY SIMPLE.

Speed. what made Rush fun? Speed. What makes most 3D sonic games bad? okay crap combat, bugs and the wrong type of platforming, but also they aren't FAST. Unleashed is at least fast, I liked it, it was a good game, people are blowing the Werehog out of proportion, it was not bad. Not at all.

This is the Sonic Problem.

What makes the 3D sonic games crap? Speed. Sonic moves too fast for the camera to keep up with him, small adjustments to his course provoke wild careenings into walls, most of the levels devolve into minimally interactive lines for Sonic to run along, or ring or boost plate sequences where input from the player is not required in the slightest, jumps are imprecise because of Sonic's momentum and inability to stop after a jump, and any challenge is substituted for cheap instant death on all sides of the long and thin and uninteresting level

Really, go back to Sonic 1 and play Scrap Brain zone Spring Yard zone or Labyrinth zone and see how often you can build up speed. It's not very often at all, because you need to stop and time jumps and explore for rings and do actual skillful technical things.

This is the problem with Sonic. Every single game that comes out, the howling masses in the audience complain that it's not fast enough, so they make the next one faster, and the controls get worse, the camera gets worse, the interactivity drops, and the deaths get cheaper.

The next person who says that the problem with Sonic these days is that he is not fast enough better sleep lightly tonight, because I will hunt you down.

Bingo. You've hit the nail right on the head, unleashing a cascade of metaphors for "you're right", especially in the part I bolded.

Ultimately, players have a reaction time. This means spacing between obstacles. Which means that really, things are limited in how 'fast' they can happen; you just add more distance to chew up in the same time between these things. With the obstacles being farther away comes the problem of seeing them, thus camera issues.

Then how to add challenge? Combat? At mach four? Not really, unless you want to do loops of a hundred metre radius to come around for another pass at the guy. Or you could slow down... which the fans despised.

Platforming? At mach four? Again: fiddly little jumps don't work too well when combined with spaceballs-esque LUDICROUS SPEED.

Or you could leave the challenge out, and just have monotonous running. Fun in its novelty for a bit, but ultimately boring after far too little time. Well, boo on that too. So you see, what makes Sonic fun in 2D is what kills him in 3D. He'll either have to slow down to fight, frustrate the crap out of you in platforming, or bore you to tears with no challenge.

I wouldn't say no to a few cheap 2D games though, maybe distributed through something like Xbox Live Arcade and its PS3/Wii counterparts (do they have something like that on the Wii?).

 

[Flour]

What I remember from the Gamecube Sonic game, I'd say that game had a good balance of speed and combat/puzzle/platforming segments, exactly what the TC wants.

But I since I do not know the name of that game, I could just be repeating what the TC said.

 

[Sylocat]

I disagree, the problem is one that is VERY SIMPLE.

Speed. what made Rush fun? Speed. What makes most 3D sonic games bad? okay crap combat, bugs and the wrong type of platforming, but also they aren't FAST. Unleashed is at least fast, I liked it, it was a good game, people are blowing the Werehog out of proportion, it was not bad. Not at all.

This is the Sonic Problem.

What makes the 3D sonic games crap? Speed. Sonic moves too fast for the camera to keep up with him, small adjustments to his course provoke wild careenings into walls, most of the levels devolve into minimally interactive lines for Sonic to run along, or ring or boost plate sequences where input from the player is not required in the slightest, jumps are imprecise because of Sonic's momentum and inability to stop after a jump, and any challenge is substituted for cheap instant death on all sides of the long and thin and uninteresting level

Really, go back to Sonic 1 and play Scrap Brain zone Spring Yard zone or Labyrinth zone and see how often you can build up speed. It's not very often at all, because you need to stop and time jumps and explore for rings and do actual skillful technical things.

This is the problem with Sonic. Every single game that comes out, the howling masses in the audience complain that it's not fast enough, so they make the next one faster, and the controls get worse, the camera gets worse, the interactivity drops, and the deaths get cheaper.

The next person who says that the problem with Sonic these days is that he is not fast enough better sleep lightly tonight, because I will hunt you down.

Thank you for putting it better than I ever could.

This is why I think 2.5D gameplay could solve half the problems right away. They'd still be able to have their precious CGI cutscenes (hey, I don't mind having a story, so long as there's some good gameplay to go with it) without tampering with the gameplay formula. 2.5D would also free up processing power (it has the great looks of 3D but it doesn't really need to render in real-time) to make the levels bigger and more interesting. Maybe the overworld could be navigated from a top-down view like a Zelda game.

The other main problem with the series is too many characters. Well, that's rather simple too: Toss in all the characters you want, but have their missions be optional side quests and mini-games, not necessary to the completion of the main storyline (maybe 100% completion would unlock an alternate ending).

Maybe I'm just gleefully optimistic.