The state of the US prison system.

[Thaluikhain]

How do you decide what an 'unjust' law is? That's an entire matter of opinion.

I believe that's the point.

Why should someone have the right to vote who has actively ruined the country for their own selfishness? They don't deserve the right.

You've gone and equated everyone in prison with "actively ruined the country for their own selfishness" there. Those are two very different things.

 

[Erttheking]

To be honest, prisoners don't deserve the vote. Why should scumbags who make society worse get to decide its future. I sure as hell don't considet it a basic right.

If someone is in prison for an unjust law then they deserve the right to vote for a party that would repeal that law.
Everyone deserves the right to vote. If a person's opinion is wrong they their voice will be overwritten by the majority. That's the whole point of the system.

How do you decide what an 'unjust' law is? That's an entire matter of opinion.

Why should someone have the right to vote who has actively ruined the country for their own selfishness? They don't deserve the right.

And the fact that you seem to believe that criminals should be punished more is just a matter of your opinion. See when you pull the opinion card, most people don't seem to recognize their own opinion of just being opinions.

Ruined the country yeah, all of those people that possessed marijuana really ruined the country. I know people love to act like all criminals are scum and deserve to be punished, but historically that's done more harm than good. Really, what is the benefit to treating people like animals that don't deserve any rights other than the fact that it feels satisfying?

 

[LetalisK]

I have a lot of issues with the way corrections is handled in this country, but I also find many of the internet complaints to be sensationalist bullshit bordering on paranoid conspiracy theories. Or maybe I happen to live in one of the places that doesn't treat inmates like garbage.

 

[LetalisK]

Double post fail

 

[chocolate pickles]

To be honest, prisoners don't deserve the vote. Why should scumbags who make society worse get to decide its future. I sure as hell don't considet it a basic right.

If someone is in prison for an unjust law then they deserve the right to vote for a party that would repeal that law.
Everyone deserves the right to vote. If a person's opinion is wrong they their voice will be overwritten by the majority. That's the whole point of the system.

How do you decide what an 'unjust' law is? That's an entire matter of opinion.

Why should someone have the right to vote who has actively ruined the country for their own selfishness? They don't deserve the right.

And the fact that you seem to believe that criminals should be punished more is just a matter of your opinion. See when you pull the opinion card, most people don't seem to recognize their own opinion of just being opinions.

Ruined the country yeah, all of those people that possessed marijuana really ruined the country. I know people love to act like all criminals are scum and deserve to be punished, but historically that's done more harm than good. Really, what is the benefit to treating people like animals that don't deserve any rights other than the fact that it feels satisfying?

Well, yeah. That's the idea. It's my opinion, thats what a forum is for - discussion. I am in no way claiming that 'prisoners need to be punished more' is a fact - it's what i believe.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Exactly. Which is why "It's opinion" isn't a good counter-argument. That's the point I was making.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Well, yeah. That's the idea. It's my opinion, thats what a forum is for - discussion. I am in no way claiming that 'prisoners need to be punished more' is a fact - it's what i believe.

It's also an opinion that's not based on what we now know does and does not know, it flies in the face of the facts. It makes no sense to have it, so why continue?

 

[RedDeadFred]

You think that would at least cause people to hesitate when committing crimes, but no.

If the criminals accept that a prison sentence is their fate when they break the law, and they break the law anyway, do they really deserve anything less?

I agree with you on a basic level, but honestly, life is not this simple. There are kids who are brought up in families where they were never given a chance for a normal life/morality. These kids grow up, commit crimes, have their own kids, and the cycle continues. They go to prison and nothing is solved. I don't disagree that people should be punished, but it seems to be a systemic issue caused by the government's lack of a will to reform these people instead of just letting the cycle keep going.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, but I'm trying to illustrate that life isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Seriously. I HIGHLY doubt you understand the exact punishment you can expect from any crime you may commit unless you're a criminal lawyer and even then. Even ones every single person does, such as speeding, jay walking, etc... You'd be amazed at the extra things they can heap onto a seemingly minor crime.

I'd say feel free to quiz me, but that would be kind of pointless where Google is just a mouse click away. I can even name the statute numbers of several crimes offhand. Simple Assault is 784.011, Sexual Battery is 794.011. Thought not a crime, I also know, for example, Baker Act is 394.463 and Marchman Act is 397.

If your continued freedom relies on you knowing and abiding by the law, you as a citizen have a responsibility to educate yourself on said laws.

Like, you're poor and stole a bottle of booze 3 times? Put away for life.

Solution: Don't steal booze. Or anything else.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

This should really be in the Politics subforum.

But whatever, the US "Justice" system is messed up. Your police are uniformed thugs who can kill any civilian almost wantonly and even with video evidence, are exonerated of wrong doing. Racism is rife and the US the has the highest incarceration rates in the world with 2.2mill of its population behind bars (almost a quarter of all prisoners worldwide). Even China with a population 3 times higher than the US has less people behind bars.

For a so-called "Land of the Free", there are less free people in the US relative to the population than any other country in the world.

The best part is that no matter how many people are shot dead, no one will debate changing the Second Amendment. Americans are free to continue shooting each other and go to jail.

 

[chocolate pickles]

Well, yeah. That's the idea. It's my opinion, thats what a forum is for - discussion. I am in no way claiming that 'prisoners need to be punished more' is a fact - it's what i believe.

It's also an opinion that's not based on what we now know does and does not know, it flies in the face of the facts. It makes no sense to have it, so why continue?

I don't wish to sound rude, but what do you mean by 'an opinion that's not based on what we now know does and does not know'? I may just be having a mind blank, but i don't quite understand this sentence.

Regardless, how does it 'fly in the face of facts'? What evidence can you point me to to show that my opinion does not align with the facts?

 

[chocolate pickles]

Like, you're poor and stole a bottle of booze 3 times? Put away for life.

Solution: Don't steal booze. Or anything else.

This is exactly how i feel. Don't want to deal with the punishment? don't commit the crime. It's that simple.

 

[chocolate pickles]

Snip

Exactly. Which is why "It's opinion" isn't a good counter-argument. That's the point I was making.

My opinion IS a counter-argument. You use facts to back up your argument. I'm not really sure what this has to do with that though: Again, i don't wish to sound rude, but how am i wrong in giving my opinion on a topic that is open to discussion?

 

[Qizx]

Like, you're poor and stole a bottle of booze 3 times? Put away for life.

Solution: Don't steal booze. Or anything else.

This is exactly how i feel. Don't want to deal with the punishment? don't commit the crime. It's that simple.

Seriously. I HIGHLY doubt you understand the exact punishment you can expect from any crime you may commit unless you're a criminal lawyer and even then. Even ones every single person does, such as speeding, jay walking, etc... You'd be amazed at the extra things they can heap onto a seemingly minor crime.

I'd say feel free to quiz me, but that would be kind of pointless where Google is just a mouse click away. I can even name the statute numbers of several crimes offhand. Simple Assault is 784.011, Sexual Battery is 794.011. Thought not a crime, I also know, for example, Baker Act is 394.463 and Marchman Act is 397.

If your continued freedom relies on you knowing and abiding by the law, you as a citizen have a responsibility to educate yourself on said laws.

Like, you're poor and stole a bottle of booze 3 times? Put away for life.

Solution: Don't steal booze. Or anything else.

So if you're starving don't steal a loaf of bread. No matter what? Yeah stealing booze is a stupid thing but you can't be so black and white.

Never denied you KNEW the crimes, I'm saying you don't know the exact punishment you'll get for it. If you assault someone that can range GREATLY depending on things you may not even know. Was that person part black? And people think it's a hate crime and you did it because you hate black people? Were they someone important?

EDIT: I suck at quoting on this site.

 

[chocolate pickles]

Like, you're poor and stole a bottle of booze 3 times? Put away for life.

Solution: Don't steal booze. Or anything else.

This is exactly how i feel. Don't want to deal with the punishment? don't commit the crime. It's that simple.

Seriously. I HIGHLY doubt you understand the exact punishment you can expect from any crime you may commit unless you're a criminal lawyer and even then. Even ones every single person does, such as speeding, jay walking, etc... You'd be amazed at the extra things they can heap onto a seemingly minor crime.

I'd say feel free to quiz me, but that would be kind of pointless where Google is just a mouse click away. I can even name the statute numbers of several crimes offhand. Simple Assault is 784.011, Sexual Battery is 794.011. Thought not a crime, I also know, for example, Baker Act is 394.463 and Marchman Act is 397.

If your continued freedom relies on you knowing and abiding by the law, you as a citizen have a responsibility to educate yourself on said laws.

Like, you're poor and stole a bottle of booze 3 times? Put away for life.

Solution: Don't steal booze. Or anything else.

So if you're starving don't steal a loaf of bread. No matter what? Yeah stealing booze is a stupid thing but you can't be so black and white.

Never denied you KNEW the crimes, I'm saying you don't know the exact punishment you'll get for it. If you assault someone that can range GREATLY depending on things you may not even know. Was that person part black? And people think it's a hate crime and you did it because you hate black people? Were they someone important?

EDIT: I suck at quoting on this site.

(Yeah, i'm awful at quoting as well )

The thing is, there are support networks in place in the UK for people in need of basic needs like food and water. Are they perfect? No, not by any means, but people don't generally starve to death on the streets of the UK.

 

[Qizx]

Like, you're poor and stole a bottle of booze 3 times? Put away for life.

Solution: Don't steal booze. Or anything else.

This is exactly how i feel. Don't want to deal with the punishment? don't commit the crime. It's that simple.

Seriously. I HIGHLY doubt you understand the exact punishment you can expect from any crime you may commit unless you're a criminal lawyer and even then. Even ones every single person does, such as speeding, jay walking, etc... You'd be amazed at the extra things they can heap onto a seemingly minor crime.

I'd say feel free to quiz me, but that would be kind of pointless where Google is just a mouse click away. I can even name the statute numbers of several crimes offhand. Simple Assault is 784.011, Sexual Battery is 794.011. Thought not a crime, I also know, for example, Baker Act is 394.463 and Marchman Act is 397.

If your continued freedom relies on you knowing and abiding by the law, you as a citizen have a responsibility to educate yourself on said laws.

Like, you're poor and stole a bottle of booze 3 times? Put away for life.

Solution: Don't steal booze. Or anything else.

So if you're starving don't steal a loaf of bread. No matter what? Yeah stealing booze is a stupid thing but you can't be so black and white.

Never denied you KNEW the crimes, I'm saying you don't know the exact punishment you'll get for it. If you assault someone that can range GREATLY depending on things you may not even know. Was that person part black? And people think it's a hate crime and you did it because you hate black people? Were they someone important?

EDIT: I suck at quoting on this site.

(Yeah, i'm awful at quoting as well )

The thing is, there are support networks in place in the UK for people in need of basic needs like food and water. Are they perfect? No, not by any means, but people don't generally starve to death on the streets of the UK.

Well as someone who has 2 friends from college who recently had to go through the process of getting food stamps here in America... If I hadn't been there they legitimately would NOT have had money for food OR housing. It took them a long ass time of fighting through a shit ton of bureaucracy and other BS before they got the help they needed. So no I don't put my faith in that entirely. Not to mention people are still being put in jail for possession of marijuana, for having consensual sex with someone 1 year their younger, among A LOT of other stupid shit.

But that's off topic, we're focusing too much on what people do to get in jail when the topic is what happens when they're in.

They're literally tortured, and I don't give a shit how bad of a crime you've committed you don't deserve torture.

 

[maninahat]

snip

To be honest, prisoners don't deserve the vote. Why should scumbags who make society worse get to decide its future. I sure as hell don't considet it a basic right.

The problem with the UK is that we can't encourage fear or respect because that would be a beach of their poor 'rights', and the papers would have a field day. We are too lenient, giving people way too short sentences or not even imprisoning them at all for crimes. Maybe if the UK would actually allow officers to be intimidating, things would be different. Instead, we give them a playstation and nice treatment in the hope that we can make them happy enough to not start riots. A lack of prison space and resources sure doesn't help.

The fact we don't have a police 'force', but a 'service' now, says it all to me.

Why don't prisoners deserve the vote? If the objective is to ultimately integrate criminals back into society, you should probably encourage them to do things a responsible citizen does - like take an active interest in politics. If however you want them to be pissed off at a society that only wants to grind them down, call them scumbags who don't deserve to vote.

The papers actually take the opposite view, because there will always be a market for people enraged at the "holiday camps" that are our prisons, and papers will happily bang on about how easy prisoners have it; hence your response to the notion of them owning play stations. You know what's useful about giving prisoners things like play stations? You can take them away again if they misbehave. What can you take away if you give a prisoner nothing? Nothing. A prisoner already has it bad just by being incarcerated in the first place, and allowing them to alleviate the inevitable mind-numbing boredom does not make their prison life all rosy.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I don't wish to sound rude, but what do you mean by 'an opinion that's not based on what we now know does and does not know'? I may just be having a mind blank, but i don't quite understand this sentence.

Regardless, how does it 'fly in the face of facts'? What evidence can you point me to to show that my opinion does not align with the facts?

What I mean is that we see evidence that we see no evidence that mass incarceration is a good solution at curbing crime but very good at fucking up a lot of lives. In a previous response to you I've linked a small, comprehensive investigation that's a start. One could dive into statistics and all kinds of scientific databases as well. A quick google reveals law school speeches, scholarly papers, presentations and meta-studies that all point against the usefulness of mass incarceration.

Now, next to that we have an ex-president admitting the failure of his mass incarceration legislation and both sides of the US isle, one side is far more right-wing than almost anything mainstream we have here in Europe so go figure, realizing (in various degrees of speed) that the US prison system really needs to change.

If even US Republicans are starting to say "Well this shit ain't working." what does that tell you about the legitimacy of a mass incarceration policy? It's a typical right-wing solution; short term, gut-feeling based with no regard for the long-term effects. But after a couple of decades of problems even the American right is coming around against it.

In the end, mass incarceration legislation is not only not sensible, it is also extremely inhumane. Watch a couple of documentaries about the US prison system. There's Mad Max-ian shit going on in there, it's absolutely anti-moral that that shit has been allowed to go on for two to three decades now. What it ends up doing is swallowing up normal, functional kids who get caught with a joint or two that get out a few years later a fucked up person with a wrecked future. It does nothing for society.