The state of the US prison system.

[Fractral]

I always found it odd that the Justice system is considered by so many to be about punishing criminals rather than trying to prevent the crimes being committed in the first place. I mean, I'm all for locking criminals away so that they can't re-offend but unless you plan on giving life sentences to every petty criminal (at which point from the point of view of the outside world you may as well just execute them all) they're going to be coming back out at some point. So, there needs to be some system in place to stop them re-offending, ideally by giving them some sort of means to live comfortably without turning back to crime.

If crime is the easiest way for a person to make a living then they're naturally going to want to be criminals. If you want to eliminate crime from a society then you need to make sure everyone in your society has a job (or some benefit allowance) and is reasonably happy with their position. I would guess that this is why countries with developed welfare like the Scandinavian countries have less crime. But that's unlikely to happen in America, where popular opinion is against helping those less fortunate.

 

[DerangedHobo]

To quote a comedian:

All they're going to learn in prison is to cut your fucking head off next time so they can't pick you out of a lineup

It's one big system of private corporations, profiling, dehumanization and shoddy laws, all held together by the complacency of an apathetic public who's too busy getting their rocks off by flinging shit at each other than having an original thought. Yet another thing to add to the argument against reproduction.

 

[Nailzzz]

So remember kids, if you want to avoid being a prison dwelling subhuman, make sure that you graduate high school by the age of 12. It will then take at least another 6 years(bachelor's degree and law school) to know enough about criminal law to not run the risk of being locked up for crimes you didn't realize you were committing since we all know that ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you turn 18 and aren't a criminal defense attorney yet, then you may as well just march right into prison. Forget any expectations of having a life that is your own. You didn't earn that right. You're scum and deserve to get brutally raped, beaten, and eventually killed by inmates or LEO's because you likely committed some victimless crime, that you weren't aware of.

And if you do manage to meet all of those standards, don't think you can then live your life as you like free of further obligations. No you will have to continue to learn about the thousands of new laws put on the books every year. And forget travelling unless you are prepared to spending at least another couple years learning about the laws of every state you will be passing through and visiting beforehand.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Prison reform isn't just an American problem, it's a world wide problem because it's hard to make people care about criminals who spend their lives preying on law abiding people.

No, the US is a unique case in this regard, definitely within the Western world. You're the only Western country with that insane kind of mass incarceration going on, caused, among other laws fueling that trend, by bullshit three-strikes laws.

Let's not forget that the US, a few years ago, with 5% of the world population had a little less than 25% of the world inmate population. That's insane! As I've said before, even the president who brought three-strikes into existence, Bill Clinton, heavily regrets doing so as he too realizes now how awful they are.

Those are bullshit statistics and you know it.

If you're going to say that the US has 5% of the total world's population then you have to compare the US to the total world's crime rate. We have 25% of the world's inmate population because most third world countries barely have prisons or enforceable laws. I'll take America's 716 per 100,000 incarceration rate any day of the week over Mexico's 211 per 100,000 with their cartels and be-headings.

If you're just going to compare to Western countries, then yes, our prison populations are massive, but our prison conditions aren't actually that bad.

Have you ever seen French prisons? How about Italian ones? Compared to them US prisons look like heaven, and that's both distressing and sad. The only ones who seem to do prisons right are the Scandinavians and the Japanese, but that's because they're small enough to be able to do that. Their prison systems don't work with countries that are 20x bigger.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Those are bullshit statistics and you know it.

If you're going to say that the US has 5% of the total world's population then you have to compare the US to the total world's crime rate. We have 25% of the world's inmate population because most third world countries barely have prisons or enforceable laws. I'll take America's 716 per 100,000 incarceration rate any day of the week over Mexico's 211 per 100,000 with their cartels and be-headings. If you're just going to compare to Western countries, then yes, our prison populations are massive...

What you say here does not show why those statistics are bullshit. I used them to make one point only; the US has, at least in the Western world, a unique problems when it comes to the volume of prison populations. That's all I wanted to say with it. You can point that out with other statistics too, like the incarceration rate per capita as you so provide, it all paints the same picture; mass incarceration is mostly a unique US thing, and in the Western world a definitely unique US thing.

As for comparing the total world's crime rate with the incarceration rate, you can't simply do that. There are way too many other variables in play to make that comparison useful. For instance, how many prison sentences are handed out? How long are those sentences? What's the percentages of violent and non-violent crime sentences? Etc etc.

For instance, you seem to imply that it's your incarceration rate that combats Mexico levels of cartel crime. But that would be incredibly shortsighted. Is the US as politically corrupt as Mexico, for example? No. Are the US police forces as gutted as they are in Mexico? Not either. And does mass incarceration target violent crime? We know that too, it did not. Mass incarceration doesn't even have a significant part in reducing overall crime, I've already pointed that out in a previous post directed at someone else.

Mass incarceration doesn't do anything to protect you against Mexico-levels of violence or anything really. Again, even the fathers of those laws realize that now and are starting to apologize it. Both Republicans and Democrats are starting to realize that and are aiming for reform against mass incarceration.

But all of that is besides the one point that I originally wanted to make; the US has unique problems when it comes to prisons. The biggest one is mass incarceration, that's a phenomenon barely known outside of the US. And that point still stands.

...but our prison conditions aren't actually that bad.

Have you ever seen French prisons? How about Italian ones? Compared to them US prisons look like heaven, and that's both distressing and sad. The only ones who seem to do prisons right are the Scandinavians and the Japanese, but that's because they're small enough to be able to do that. Their prison systems don't work with countries that are 20x bigger.

Indeed, prison systems in Southern European countries are far from perfect, with a lot of things going on that rise my eyebrows just as much like overpopulation and the results of low funding.

But no compared to them the US prisons still don't look like heaven. Why? The US gang culture, for starters. Obviously there's gangs in Western Europe, but we don't have the same kind of gang culture nor the kind of violence that comes with it, especially within prisons. The fact that that is going on nearly unchecked is what mostly makes US prisons so incredibly brutal when we look at it. The fact that the US barely has any issues with throwing kids who get caught with some joints into that mix is what shocks us so much.

As for that statement regarding the viability of a Scandinavian or Japanese style system in US, that's an unfounded assumption. Neither is said that the US needs to carbon-copy it. Size isn't exactly a good argument either, considering the fact that the US is a federation and arranges a lot of its correctional facilities on a state level. Japan, by the way, has a population of around 125 million with a population density of around 336 people per square kilometers compared to the US' 32 per square kilometers, and even with knowing your '20X bigger' comment was hyperbole that doesn't make that comment a lot less silly.

 

[sonicneedslovetoo]

What is is even a bigger problem is that those who are completely innocent also get tortured, how often has it happened that they send somebody who was innocent to prison?

 

[sonicneedslovetoo]

To be honest, prisoners don't deserve the vote. Why should scumbags who make society worse get to decide its future. I sure as hell don't considet it a basic right.

If someone is in prison for an unjust law then they deserve the right to vote for a party that would repeal that law.
Everyone deserves the right to vote. If a person's opinion is wrong they their voice will be overwritten by the majority. That's the whole point of the system.

How do you decide what an 'unjust' law is? That's an entire matter of opinion.

Why should someone have the right to vote who has actively ruined the country for their own selfishness? They don't deserve the right.

You mean like destroying the country by smoking weed?

 

[Ryotknife]

What you say here does not show why those statistics are bullshit. I used them to make one point only; the US has, at least in the Western world, a unique problems when it comes to the volume of prison populations. That's all I wanted to say with it. You can point that out with other statistics too, like the incarceration rate per capita as you so provide, it all paints the same picture; mass incarceration is mostly a unique US thing, and in the Western world a definitely unique US thing.

As for comparing the total world's crime rate with the incarceration rate, you can't simply do that. There are way too many other variables in play to make that comparison useful. For instance, how many prison sentences are handed out? How long are those sentences? What's the percentages of violent and non-violent crime sentences? Etc etc.

For instance, you seem to imply that it's your incarceration rate that combats Mexico levels of cartel crime. But that would be incredibly shortsighted. Is the US as politically corrupt as Mexico, for example? No. Are the US police forces as gutted as they are in Mexico? Not either. And does mass incarceration target violent crime? We know that too, it did not. Mass incarceration doesn't even have a significant part in reducing overall crime, I've already pointed that out in a previous post directed at someone else.

Mass incarceration doesn't do anything to protect you against Mexico-levels of violence or anything really. Again, even the fathers of those laws realize that now and are starting to apologize it. Both Republicans and Democrats are starting to realize that and are aiming for reform against mass incarceration.

But all of that is besides the one point that I originally wanted to make; the US has unique problems when it comes to prisons. The biggest one is mass incarceration, that's a phenomenon barely known outside of the US. And that point still stands.

Yes it is unique to the US, but you are assuming there is something wrong with the system. Americans lead the world in legal and illegal drug use. We are four times more likely to use cocaine than the second leading country. we lead the world in marijuana and tobacco use. Thankfully, we are only 6th in alcohol use.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-the-world-in-illegal-drug-use/

We consume 80% of the worlds opiums, 99% of the worlds hydrocodone (ie the painkiller known as Vicodin).

http://abcnews.go.com/US/prescription-painkillers-record-number-americans-pain-medication/story?id=13421828

Americans consume 75% of the worlds prescription durgs

http://healthresearchfunding.org/52-notable-painkiller-abuse-statistics/

With our rampant drug use, it is no surprise that more people here would commit crimes compared to other countries. Okay, so that is A factor, but does that truly the only explanation?

probably not.

We also have 1.4 million gang members in the US. criminals who should be in jail because they represent a significant threat to society. Well, why do we have so many? Well one..... we are rich. No point in stealing from poor people is there? Two, we imported a LOT of crime families from around the world, one of the hazards of having so many immigrants (not that immigration is bad, but you have to take the good with the bad). Much like Justin Bieber and Piers Morgan, the world likes to send the people they dont like to the US, and then the world wonders why we have a crime problem. Three, we are drug addicts which creates criminal opportunities.

Also, there have been at least two eras in relatively recent history where the US basically was like modern Mexico. The Prohibition and the Crack Epidemic. The Northeast in particular has had a nasty run with crime. NYC has as little as 25 years ago had a homicide rate TWICE that than present day Mexico (34 per 100000 in NYC in 1990 , present Mexico = 14)). Ill let that one sink in for a bit. So the thing is, we already had our "Mexico treatment" 2-3 times in the past 100 years. Two of these crime eras were largely caused by illegal drugs (the other one caused by the US government getting serious against mafias). So you can probably understand why Americans might not be so tolerant about the use of illegal drugs or crime in general.

And yes, there are some systematic problems, but honestly compared to the other factors are pretty minor. Granted, this is the only factor we can actually FIX, but even if we did it wouldnt do anything. Some cases that fall through the crack that shouldnt have will be saved, but it will be a drop in the ocean. Now, im a big supporter of context when it comes to reviewing criminal cases and so im not a fan of legislation that takes context out of the situation like the three strike laws or mandatory minimum sentencing. That said, to lay the incarceration rate at its feet is silly. The reason why our incarceration rate is so high is really simple, its because we commit more crimes. There are many many nuanced reasons relatively specific to the US as to why we commit crime compared to other countries, but at its base that is the crux of the issue.

Hell, we might have been like present day Mexico right now when it comes to the Cartels except it doesnt make much business sense to declare war against your biggest customer.

 

[stroopwafel]

Yes it is unique to the US, but you are assuming there is something wrong with the system. Americans lead the world in legal and illegal drug use. We are four times more likely to use cocaine than the second leading country. we lead the world in marijuana and tobacco use. Thankfully, we are only 6th in alcohol use.

So, would you argue that too many immigrants(and then not the kind of immigrants you'd want) and huge wealth inequalities is the reason for the U.S.'s high intoxication/prison/crime rate? I personally think there is definitely some truth to that. Having a very restrictive immigration policy and a sustainable welfare state take a lot of incentives away for people to commit crime or throw their life into disarray due to poverty or social and economic pressure. I understand cultural and historical reasons will prevent the U.S. from ever adopting a 'European' system(though these countries definitely also have their fair share of problems with immigration), but it does makes you wonder how sustainable a system is that only benefits the 2% and have everyone else thrown into jail or addicted to coke and painkillers.