The Surge in LGBT rainbow characters - AKA: The New Demographic and why its happening.

[Czann]

Why?

Because its nearly-free advertising, plain and simple.

Nailed it, cynical but absolutely true.

These are corporations. They only care about money. If they can have free ads and end up looking goody-goody to SJWs they will do it.

 

[Silvanus]

It's grand, thanks. I like to reward the producers of such a wide range of media by spending many monies on it, as opposed to probably not otherwise. It's just a shame that I have to forgo some of that enjoyment to go onto forums to defend the fact that I enjoy it, and that I'm not in the wrong for doing so.

Bollocks. Nobody has said you are. Nobody. My issue is with your dismissive attitude towards those who would like to experience the same.

Depends on how they are written, and how intrusively out there they actually are. A badly written shoehorned character is a game ruiner. There is a good reason why Hero Steve is our go to character of choice.

Lets be honest and call a spade a spade. If theres any legitimate argument to more protagonists of this type (i.e. not tribalistic social media circle jerking), its actually that the people who identify as LGBTABCDwhatever and are vocally complaining about Hero Steve as a protagonist, probably struggle to identify with playing as Hero Steve.

Complaining about homogeneity is not the same as being unable to enjoy art of the majority type, plainly. I love a huge number of games which feature "Steves"; that doesn't mean I wouldn't like something I can identify with a little more personally.

Sure, why not, if it makes you happy to think that, go for it.

That implies I'm not accurately describing your position. But you did say that if the situation were reversed, straight people wouldn't buy it.

 

[maninahat]

Honestly, I don't know why this even has to be a point of discussion. As a gay man, I looked at the fact that Kung Jin was gay, went "Huh. Alright. That's cool." and moved on with my life. For some reason, everyone and their grandmother has to go OMFG at the news.

Reality is: gay people exist, and they like to be represented in games. As someone who designs tabletops, and makes characters for those tabletops in stories, what people have to understand is that it takes effort to make a token ANYTHING in any game or creative setting.

This isn't token. It just is. And there's nothing wrong with that.

It's not the fact that a character is gay. There were gay characters in brokeback mountain. But brokeback mountain is a film that deals with the topic of homosexuality. Mortal Kombat doesn't. It's the fact that this is shoe-horned into the game to please the SJWs.

And this is absolutely a token gay character.

So my understanding is that unless the story is specifically about homosexuality, everyone should default to heterosexuality? That's like saying black people shouldn't be in a stories unless the stories are specifically about civil rights. What are the rest of the (presumably) heterosexual cast if not token themselves?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Honestly, I don't know why this even has to be a point of discussion. As a gay man, I looked at the fact that Kung Jin was gay, went "Huh. Alright. That's cool." and moved on with my life. For some reason, everyone and their grandmother has to go OMFG at the news.

Reality is: gay people exist, and they like to be represented in games. As someone who designs tabletops, and makes characters for those tabletops in stories, what people have to understand is that it takes effort to make a token ANYTHING in any game or creative setting.

This isn't token. It just is. And there's nothing wrong with that.

It's not the fact that a character is gay. There were gay characters in brokeback mountain. But brokeback mountain is a film that deals with the topic of homosexuality. Mortal Kombat doesn't. It's the fact that this is shoe-horned into the game to please the SJWs.

And this is absolutely a token gay character.

So my understanding is that unless the story is specifically about homosexuality, everyone should default to heterosexuality? That's like saying black people shouldn't be in a stories unless the stories are specifically about civil rights. What are the rest of the (presumably) heterosexual cast if not token themselves?

I don't know what Eskimo is saying, but when it comes to Kung Jin the handling has been bad. The vague way in which they presented it, the outside fictional universe conformation, the fact they use it as a key personality trait... If it's not tokenism it sure as hell is politically motivated. Basically as a move to appease the gay community and to bow to the political correctness gods for good publicity. As I said before it's really a cynical way to attempt to use the LGBTQ community. MK's expanded universe or no it makes very little sense in a series designed around over the top one on one combat, especially when the gameplay has no role in the canon and visa versa.

 

[Angelblaze]

For some reason a shit ton of you are saying that I'm somehow against gay/LGBT rainbow characters or I think them being included in a game/media is a bad thing.

That's not what I'm saying

I'm saying there's a difference between having a LGBT character and having a fleshed out human character that just happens to be LGBT. A character whose only reason and defining trait to be in a cast is to be the 'oppressed gay one fighting for what's right' is cardboard. Like the 'one black guy' on the team and the 'one sexy woman' (See: Avengers, and how bad BW's writing was.)

Hahahaha... "Surge"... "So many LBGT characters"... Yea... SO many.

Compared to 10 to 20 years ago?
Yeah.

I'm not saying we've immediately fixed the issue.
I'm saying we've progressed.

 

[renegade7]

Really it strikes me like why so many people want gay marriage without actually being gay them selves, and without considering what sort of possible consequences there are for it.

To me, a heterosexual male, it's not about being gay and only a part of it is out of sympathy. The real reason is that I don't want to live in a culture where one group's arbitrarily-selected ideology gets put in a privileged position to place arbitrary restrictions on people's personal lives, regardless of the utter lack of factual basis. It's not about whether or not I'm gay, it's about them not having the right to make those decisions for other people.

So in the same way pure sympathy (not as though being sympathetic is somehow a bad thing) doesn't necessarily need to be the only reason for thinking gay characters can be a good idea. Encouraging designers to make more risky and potentially controversial decision choices and expanding the appeal of gaming to new demographics is in no way a bad thing.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Really it strikes me like why so many people want gay marriage without actually being gay them selves, and without considering what sort of possible consequences there are for it.

To me, a heterosexual male, it's not about being gay and only a part of it is out of sympathy. The real reason is that I don't want to live in a culture where one group's arbitrarily-selected ideology gets put in a privileged position to place arbitrary restrictions on people's personal lives, regardless of the utter lack of factual basis. It's not about whether or not I'm gay, it's about them not having the right to make those decisions for other people.

So in the same way pure sympathy (not as though being sympathetic is somehow a bad thing) doesn't necessarily need to be the only reason for thinking gay characters can be a good idea. Encouraging designers to make more risky and potentially controversial decision choices and expanding the appeal of gaming to new demographics is in no way a bad thing.

I'd rather not have something as a sympathy move. It strikes me as disingenuous at best and pandering at worst. When something is fundamentally about equality than the reasons it must be done are for the sake of equality. In a legal system as complicated and broken as the ones we have are, it's much more rational to rewrite the laws from the ground up. Not simply add to them with more complexity and broken statutes. One of the reasons this could bite society in the ass is that people will use gay marriage as a precedent to legalize things like marrying animals, inanimate objects, and underage persons. Yes those people are extreme fringe, but if there is a legal precedent they can use, they sure as hell will. If the laws are rewritten from a standpoint of natural human rights and equality, that situation can easily be averted.

LGBTQ people are naturally part of the gaming demographic. Having better representation is a net good. But better representation is not a function of simply more representation, it also has to be somewhat realistic and positive representation. Negative representation in the form of the token character isn't going to help anyone.

 

[Metailurus]

This thread exists in part because gaming is growing up as a media force and people are beginning to use it as a political platform, instead of an artistic one

Growing up? lol. Right now the gaming industry is flooded with some of the most unprofessional amateurs ever seen. But hey, keep pushing that narrative, right?

So what exactly is wrong in your mind with producers and creators more importantly being more inclusive?

What's right with it, in commercial terms?

Badly writen Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer(LBGTQ) characters are bad in more ways than one. They're bad because they give straight people a bad impression of these minorities and insulting to the minority as a whole.

And it's all in the eye of the beholder. Good luck selling a character who is going to invariably come across as a negative stereotype to most people who end up playing the game.

As a person who is not cisgender myself is it some how wrong for me to want to see more transgender and gender queer characters who aren't played as offensive comedy characters? Seriously if you do this to any racial minority it sparks a huge backlash. Do it to trans and gender queer characters, gay and lesbian characters too for that matter... You generally get a pass. Still what's wrong with a minority wanting better representation?

As a straight white male who has always had the meat and 2 veg, it's not wrong for me to invoke that I enjoy games and their character distribution as they currently are.

What makes you think that the problem is entirely in weather or not identifies with a leading character is the number one issue? I don't have to fully identify with a character to enjoy playing as them. That still doesn't mean that wanting more inclusion of LGBTQ characters is some how exclusionary to you. We want inclusion, you're arguing for further exclusion.

What is the problem then, other than that I and people like me enjoy games in their current format? Jealousy? If you cant have fun then I'm not allowed to either, is that it?

If you're saying there is no way you could ever identify with a character who isn't straight and cisgender, maybe you're the one with issues?

As already stated, it depends on how they are written. On balance I probably would not be interested in any game that focuses on about how bizarre the main protagonist happens to be.

Because that doesn't make the people who are being marginalized and excluded happy.

So why are you arguing for their continued exclusion if it's not all that important? If it's not important then there is no argument against further inclusion of characters who are different from you, right?

Given that you don't care whether my demographic are made into second class citizens in order to appease your desires, why should I care about your marginalisation?

 

[Metailurus]

If you'd much rather nothing changed then it is apparently a big deal to you. Is it surprising that it is a big deal to others? Especially as you are going to have plenty of games catering you in any case, and the reverse isn't the case.

It's hardly that straightforward when every little bit of content in games that are supposedly "for me" are scrutinized and outraged against. It's almost as if I'm not allowed to enjoy games because some people are feminists or had a sex change or whatever. Stop invading my games. Stop whining about my games. Let me get on with enjoying my games.

I have been given absolutely no good reason for supporting "your" (generalising) cause. Drama and hassle and attacks against me for being a straight white male don't count as good reasons btw. I can give that back in spades.

 

[Metailurus]

Bollocks. Nobody has said you are. Nobody. My issue is with your dismissive attitude towards those who would like to experience the same.

Newsflash: I don't really care if you believe I have a dismissive attitude or not. In fact, I hope you and others have fun chewing over it just like I have had to chew over the anti-straight white men stuff over the past 8 months.

The HMS Reasonable Compromise sailed months ago due to being forced out of port by the aggressive nature of social (in)justice's general approach to the situation. You surely cannot expect me to be reasonable when my opposition are whining about every little thing in games that I might have otherwise been able to enjoy, and petitioning developers to get them changed, and sticking dozens of articles in the media about how I and others like me are supposedly dead.

"dismissive attitude"'s like mine are a direct consequence of such happenings.

 

[Thaluikhain]

If you'd much rather nothing changed then it is apparently a big deal to you. Is it surprising that it is a big deal to others? Especially as you are going to have plenty of games catering you in any case, and the reverse isn't the case.

It's hardly that straightforward when every little bit of content in games that are supposedly "for me" are scrutinized and outraged against. It's almost as if I'm not allowed to enjoy games because some people are feminists or had a sex change or whatever. Stop invading my games. Stop whining about my games. Let me get on with enjoying my games.

Rubbish. Nobody is stopping you playing games. Do't want to discuss LGBT issues in games and want to play games instead? Don't discuss LGBT issues in games and play games instead. It's that easy.

Also, it's telling that you say "my games". Why are they yours? Why are you the one that should get games catering to you?

 

[Metailurus]

Rubbish. Nobody is stopping you playing games. Do't want to discuss LGBT issues in games and want to play games instead? Don't discuss LGBT issues in games and play games instead. It's that easy.

A one sided monologue is not a discussion. But hey, it's so easy to try to shuffle off an opposing view to the side and pretend it's not there as its convenient to the narrative(tm).

Also, it's telling that you say "my games". Why are they yours? Why are you the one that should get games catering to you?

Well, from what I can tell, they aren't good enough for you, so they must be mine, right?

 

[Bat Vader]

Bollocks. Nobody has said you are. Nobody. My issue is with your dismissive attitude towards those who would like to experience the same.

Newsflash: I don't really care if you believe I have a dismissive attitude or not. In fact, I hope you and others have fun chewing over it just like I have had to chew over the anti-straight white men stuff over the past 8 months.

The HMS Reasonable Compromise sailed months ago due to being forced out of port by the aggressive nature of social (in)justice's general approach to the situation. You surely cannot expect me to be reasonable when my opposition are whining about every little thing in games that I might have otherwise been able to enjoy, and petitioning developers to get them changed, and sticking dozens of articles in the media about how I and others like me are supposedly dead.

"dismissive attitude"'s like mine are a direct consequence of such happenings.

Isn't what you're doing generalizing the entire social justice crowd? Feel free to dismiss the arguments of the people who have dismissed yours but don't dismiss the arguments of people who haven't. Just because some people in a group have slighted you doesn't mean they all have.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Bollocks. Nobody has said you are. Nobody. My issue is with your dismissive attitude towards those who would like to experience the same.

Newsflash: I don't really care if you believe I have a dismissive attitude or not. In fact, I hope you and others have fun chewing over it just like I have had to chew over the anti-straight white men stuff over the past 8 months.

The HMS Reasonable Compromise sailed months ago due to being forced out of port by the aggressive nature of social (in)justice's general approach to the situation. You surely cannot expect me to be reasonable when my opposition are whining about every little thing in games that I might have otherwise been able to enjoy, and petitioning developers to get them changed, and sticking dozens of articles in the media about how I and others like me are supposedly dead.

"dismissive attitude"'s like mine are a direct consequence of such happenings.

Oh come on. You spend half your posts being completely dismissive (even being completely dismissive of your own dismissiveness), and the other half on your knees whimpering about how the mean old SJWs are oppressing you for being a straight white male.

Can you please just pick an attitude and stick with it? Either give everyone the middle finger, or spend your time crying and whimpering in the corner. Doing both at the same time just doesn't work.

 

[Metailurus]

Soooo... You're dismissive of other people's arguments because people were dismissive to you, but still want your view to be treated as a legitimately opposing view... uh huh...

Oh right, so social injustice crusaders are *allowed* to be dismissive, but everyone else, isn't. Got it.

No.

Not to burst your bubble, but the 'dismissive' attitudes you're showing here aren't anything new. Shit, they've been around for years. Using the last 8 months as a shitty defense is just... well, a shitty defense. Going 'Oh well You'll just have to deal with my terrible attitude' also gives you negative legitimacy, soo... Yeah. Funnily enough, even if this was a one-sided monologue, you STILL wouldn't be contributing to a discussion. Turns out 'Someone did bad things to me so I'll do bad things to you' is a terrible form of justification. Who'd have thought.

Are you actually contributing to the discussion with this diatribe, or are you just putting forth subjective rhetoric? It gives you "negative legitimacy", or some other equally nonsensical phrase.

Isn't what you're doing generalizing the entire social justice crowd?

Yes, this is fair.

Feel free to dismiss the arguments of the people who have dismissed yours but don't dismiss the arguments of people who haven't. Just because some people in a group have slighted you doesn't mean they all have.

I could, but as generalising has worked so well for the other side, I fail to see a good reason to refrain.

Besides, when we discuss this diversity issue we are ultimately discussing the industry as a whole, not on a case by case basis, so I see it as reasonable to address groups of people as a generalised collective rather than on an individual basis. It would be nice if it could be otherwise, but I don't believe that is a realistic option in the current climate.

Oh come on. You spend half your posts being completely dismissive (even being completely dismissive of your own dismissiveness), and the other half on your knees whimpering about how the mean old SJWs are oppressing you for being a straight white male.

Can you please just pick an attitude and stick with it? Either give everyone the middle finger, or spend your time crying and whimpering in the corner. Doing both at the same time just doesn't work.

I think Shanicus might have something to say to you about how you are not contributing to the discussion.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Oh right, so social injustice crusaders are *allowed* to be dismissive, but everyone else, isn't. Got it.

And yet you are allowed to be dismissive and they aren't? Or is it that you think it's perfectly fine for both to be completely dismissive, even though it seems to annoy you so much?

Oh come on. You spend half your posts being completely dismissive (even being completely dismissive of your own dismissiveness), and the other half on your knees whimpering about how the mean old SJWs are oppressing you for being a straight white male.

Can you please just pick an attitude and stick with it? Either give everyone the middle finger, or spend your time crying and whimpering in the corner. Doing both at the same time just doesn't work.

I think Shanicus might have something to say to you about how you are not contributing to the discussion.

Your commenting on this isn't contributing anything to the discussion either.

My point was that you seem to revel in the fact that the game's industry caters almost exclusively to your demographic, and you seem to have no sympathy for anyone who isn't catered to, while at the same time fishing for sympathy with all these pathetic sob stories about how badly straight white males are treated. Either be snarky or be whiny, being both is just nauseating.

 

[Bat Vader]

I could, but as generalising has worked so well for the other side, I fail to see a good reason to refrain.

Besides, when we discuss this diversity issue we are ultimately discussing the industry as a whole, not on a case by case basis, so I see it as reasonable to address groups of people as a generalised collective rather than on an individual basis. It would be nice if it could be otherwise, but I don't believe that is a realistic option in the current climate.

I have to disagree. Even when discussing the industry as a whole many people are going to have separate views on what they want within the gaming industry. Sure some will cross over and match with the view points of others but I don't think it's right to generalize them. By doing that you could be missing out on some really interesting or thought provoking discussions. I have been apart of both online and offline discussions where many people said the same thing. I just filter that stuff out and look for the interesting arguments/discussions.

This isn't meant to be offensive to either GG or SJWs and in fact is a question I pose to both sides so please don't be offended but does stooping down to their level really make you any better than them? Personally I think if someone engages in the very tactics they are against they really don't have a right to complain when it is used against them. That's just my personal view point though. Also, before anyone labels me I am neutral in all this. I'm not aligned to either side.

 

[Metailurus]

And yet you are allowed to be dismissive and they aren't? Or is it that you think it's perfectly fine for both to be completely dismissive, even though it seems to annoy you so much?

So you too believe that social injustice crusaders are *allowed* to be dismissive, but everyone else, isn't. That is what you are implying. Message received loud and clear

Your commenting on this isn't contributing anything to the discussion either.

My point was that you seem to revel in the fact that the game's industry caters almost exclusively to your demographic, and you seem to have no sympathy for anyone who isn't catered to, while at the same time fishing for sympathy with all these pathetic sob stories about how badly straight white males are treated. Either be snarky or be whiny, being both is just nauseating.

Given that

a) This isn't a popularity contest

and

b) I'm not running for election

Does it really matter whether or not you like how you perceive the tone of my posts to be? But hey, sharing is caring, I guess?

I have to disagree. Even when discussing the industry as a whole many people are going to have separate views on what they want within the gaming industry. Sure some will cross over and match with the view points of others but I don't think it's right to generalize them. By doing that you could be missing out on some really interesting or thought provoking discussions. I have been apart of both online and offline discussions where many people said the same thing. I just filter that stuff out and look for the interesting arguments/discussions.

This isn't meant to be offensive to either GG or SJWs and in fact is a question I pose to both sides so please don't be offended but does stooping down to their level really make you any better than them? Personally I think if someone engages in the very tactics they are against they really don't have a right to complain when it is used against them. That's just my personal view point though. Also, before anyone labels me I am neutral in all this. I'm not aligned to either side.

We will have to agree to disagree in that case.

I believe that there's a difference to be found between real life discussion and online discussion. I hypothesize that 99.99% of online discussion is just posting our views at other people, rather than having a real discussion. Very little that requires genuine empathy is ever taken on board and practically no one has a change of opinion. Most people make up their opinion about something quickly and rarely change it. Very very few people are as open minded, unbiased and objective as they like to think they are. Not even close.

Does it matter if I'm better than them? By what measure? I'm not really sure that it does. Results matter. That's actually what I've learned (or at least had reinforced) from gaming's past 8 months.

Anyhow, thank you for your input (genuinely, not flippantly).

 

[FirstNameLastName]

And yet you are allowed to be dismissive and they aren't? Or is it that you think it's perfectly fine for both to be completely dismissive, even though it seems to annoy you so much?

So you too believe that social injustice crusaders are *allowed* to be dismissive, but everyone else, isn't. That is what you are implying. Message received loud and clear

That is not at all what I'm implying. As usual, you misinterpret other people's posts and attack the resulting strawman, rather than addressing the post itself.

Your commenting on this isn't contributing anything to the discussion either.

My point was that you seem to revel in the fact that the game's industry caters almost exclusively to your demographic, and you seem to have no sympathy for anyone who isn't catered to, while at the same time fishing for sympathy with all these pathetic sob stories about how badly straight white males are treated. Either be snarky or be whiny, being both is just nauseating.

Given that

a) This isn't a popularity contest

and

b) I'm not running for election

Does it really matter whether or not you like how you perceive the tone of my posts to be? But hey, sharing is caring, I guess?

It seems there is no point continuing this discussion. You clearly have deep battle scars from past arguments with SJWs, and have openly admitted that as a result you have no intention of being reasonable, or even shying away from stooping to the lowest tactics of your previous opposition.