The Things I Hate, Part One: Dragon Age II

Recommended Videos

TPiddy

New member
Aug 28, 2009
2,359
0
0
StarCecil said:
I didn't really have a problem with the combat per se. I played as a mage, though, and when I'm waiting for my mana to recharge (and can't take another bloody potion, because it has a long-ass fucking cooldown!) I get a bit bored tapping X to the same three fire-y slash-y animations. I'd rather them have made it a bit more hack 'n' slash if they wanted to go this route, something like the Lord of the Rings games. That would have been pretty cool.
I didn't get through an entire mage playthrough, at that point more games came into play, but my evil rogue character was just as fun to play in Origins as it was here, if not more-so. The combat was faster, more frenetic and, in some cases, actually harder. There had to be a strategy you took into some battles or you'd be completely wiped out.

StarCecil said:
There were interesting parts to the story. The Qunari thing was my favorite. But there were so many things that held it back. Not only were the cool parts decidedly not "the point" of the tale, but it was structured in such a shambolic manner. Take for instance the entire second act. You're suddenly introduced to the Viscount, told of the growing problems with the Qunari, and asked go to save the day.

My reaction was "who the fuck are you and why should I care"? Then, most prominently in the first act, most of the quests are related in a "so I guess I'll go ever here" kind of way. Where in Origins the quests were really straightforward in a "my mission requires that I do this" way. If there had been an overarching goal then it would have made much more sense.

Plus, the final two bosses are introduced at the God damn end of the second act, and at the end you have to fight BOTH no matter who you picked...
Would the Viscount have really given a shit about you had you not done anything in the first act? Hawke had to first rise to prominence before he would even be granted and audience with the Viscount. Hawke also made inroads with Aveline in act 1 as well. Key plot elements that laid the groundwork for Act 2.

However, I agree with you on the boss fights. I figured Meredith would be the big bad, but I chose both approaches in the mage war and had to fight that abomination thing regardless, which I felt was cheap.

StarCecil said:
Basically, it seemed like they were so intent on this mage storyline that they plastered over or outright ignored certain interesting stories, and completely forgot about the "story of Hawke" aspect. It doesn't become the story of Hawke's rise to power so much as it's about how wrongly the mages are treated, so on and so on.
Most prominent figures DO rise up through times of intense conflict. His rise to power is not at all interesting if everything is all hunky-dory all the time. The mage storyline is central to Hawke's rise to power and makes his decision in it that much more important. Add to the fact that he was allies with Anders as well and you just add another layer of intrigue and betrayal. In fact, one of my regrets is not playing through AS a mage Hawke because I'm sure that could have been WAY more interesting.
 

No_Remainders

New member
Sep 11, 2009
1,872
0
0
StarCecil said:
Well, those of that know me (and not a one of you should) know that I absolutely love the Dragon Age series. Yet I have an absolute, undeniable loathing of Dragon Age II. It's a very unusual circumstance for me. There're plenty of games I don?t like, or don?t play, but there isn?t really a game I can say that absolutely hate to this degree.
So... Basically, this should have read "I absolutely love Dragon Age: Origins." rather than the Dragon Age series, because one can't love a series if one hates half of what's in it.

Basically your argument seems to boil down to wanting something that's exactly the same as Origins was, which isn't a good idea, because that'd get bland after a while.
 

StarCecil

New member
Feb 28, 2010
503
0
0
Takolin said:
Maybe I took the wrong set of starting abilities, since I didn't get death syphon until well I after I took most of the Blood Mage tree. Most random hordes I could tie down pretty well and between me and my party I would end the battle in good condition, though with drained mana.

I also have to say that I don't think the game was balanced properly. I mention in the review having had to start over towards the end of Act 2. That's because I hadn't picked up Isabella or Fenris (I didn't know they were only available in Act 1 or where to get them) and I the Arishok didn't like me enough to duel me. That fight with him and all his men is hard. Like, real hard.

TPiddy said:
I didn't get through an entire mage playthrough, at that point more games came into play, but my evil rogue character was just as fun to play in Origins as it was here, if not more-so. The combat was faster, more frenetic and, in some cases, actually harder. There had to be a strategy you took into some battles or you'd be completely wiped out.
I liked playing as a mage, especially once you get real powerful and can dole out magic in a series of quick, seamless attacks. But I have to argue about the strategy. Except for set instances where you know there's going to be combat, you could just toss out strategy since it would go all to hell as soon as the next wave of bad guys teleported to the fight. It's not easy to take a working strategy with you when half the time the tactical picture changes without a good reason.

Would the Viscount have really given a shit about you had you not done anything in the first act? Hawke had to first rise to prominence before he would even be granted and audience with the Viscount. Hawke also made inroads with Aveline in act 1 as well. Key plot elements that laid the groundwork for Act 2.
He probably wouldn't have cared, but the point is that I, the audience, didn't care about him. This was like the first time meeting him, and I'd probably heard his name once. It's not like in Origins when a character you have some basis with gives you a quest. It really comes off like some random old guy telling you to handle something that really isn't your problem. Also, it seemed to me as though the only reason he was giving Hawke this mission was because Hawke is the main character. Maybe I just didn't pay attention but what is Hawke really known for except having gotten his wealth on a Deep Roads expedition? Is that really enough to entrust him with important tasks of state concern?

And, as I said, Act 2 was easily the best part of the game, since it was the only part that actually made a bit of sense from a storytelling perspective. The groundwork had been laid with the Qunari in Act 1 (except that Act 1 is only tangentially related to anything else in the game, unfortunately) and the Arishok had been prominent in the advertising and on the box art. But I just can't get over how sloppy the storytelling was. I mean, Orsino and Meredith should have been among the first characters you meet after getting to Kirkwall. They shouldn't have been introduced more than half of the way through the game.

Most prominent figures DO rise up through times of intense conflict. His rise to power is not at all interesting if everything is all hunky-dory all the time. The mage storyline is central to Hawke's rise to power and makes his decision in it that much more important. Add to the fact that he was allies with Anders as well and you just add another layer of intrigue and betrayal. In fact, one of my regrets is not playing through AS a mage Hawke because I'm sure that could have been WAY more interesting.
Playing as a mage (even a blood mage) doesn't make the story that much exciting. Especially since even the Templars will either not recognize you as a mage or, I guess, like you so much that they won't care.

Now, I'm not asking that the story be set during times of plenty and happiness. I am asking that it make sense, though. If the story is about Hawke's rise to power, then why does he rise to extreme prominence at the end of Act 1 and is named Champion by the end of Act 2? If it's about the Mage-Templar war, then why is that only a central concern in Act 3?

No_Remainders said:
...because one can't love a series if one hates half of what's in it.
Two prequel books, and a third novel on the way, a comic penned by Orson Scott Card, a Facebook game, an upcoming webseries starring Felicia Day (October 11, y'all) and an upcoming anime movie. This was addressed earlier.

Basically your argument seems to boil down to wanting something that's exactly the same as Origins was, which isn't a good idea, because that'd get bland after a while.
Also addressed, but here I go: I don't want a copy of Origins. I want a worthy successor. Even if you disagree with me, it cannot be argued that Dragon Age II doesn't have major, noticeable flaws in its execution that can greatly interfere with one's enjoyment of the game.
 

TorchofThanatos

New member
Dec 6, 2010
163
0
0
Told you! I still think you are a bloody idiot for liking the first and you have done nothing to change my mind. That sticker comment was the gauntlet being thrown down so let's dance muther-fucker!

First, Writer! Dam it! I was guessing you were a high school english teacher (not an insult). You have a way of talking that and writing but in that case time to use literature to blow holes in your points.

Zero Punctuation had about the same to say about that. And that is something I didn't quite understand. Going from a Male Human Noble Warrior to a Female Elf Mage was a huge difference - and not just in the playing style. The origins were great for establishing the "mood" of the game, which was in turn directly affected by the origins being played.
Face palm! Okay writer lets do an exercise. Write me a short story like 4 pages long and the rewrite the opening paragraph 5 other times. Yes, it might change the mood or theme a little but it doesn't change the fact that it is the same story! When you return to your respected city no know recognizes you. There a small difference of some one yelling at you but that was it. Six openings for one game.

You, sir, have done what many great and wise men could not - despite years upon years of journeying and study. I am proud. You, my friend, have discovered the point of a user review. Somebody get this man a sticker.
Okay, now lets rip into this one. You have down a user review on a game that has been out for a while. Your own options are nothing new and we have all heard them before and you are on the internet. YOUR OPTIONS DON"T MATTER. and neither do mine. Everyone has one and nobody really cares about others. Now that that is out of the way, lets talk about reviewing. Your user review stated your option and nothing else. That is a sign of a bad review. Good review talk about other problems or points about the game that don't have to do with their options. Like "I hated the mages dream realm because it looked crapy." A good review will say "I hated the mages dream realm because the colour was most all brown and the entire level was out of focus." That is how a review should be done. Only stating option is useless.

Which is never a good thing. I can tell you that as a writer; you never want less of what is a vital aspect of storytelling. In fact, the depth of the characters in Origins was held up by fans and reviewers alike as being one of the better aspects of the games
The Count of Monte Cristo! There is a book that proves you wrong! When the man becomes the Count he lost character dept. The key is the dept was picked up of the other aspects of the story. His Revenge plot was massive and all the dept you need. You don't need deep characters to tell a good story. Sense and Sensibility, the Lord of the Rings good books that don't have a lot of character dept. Also the characters in the first game didn't have a lot of dept either. Bad mage, good mage, evil man, funny man, Sex elf, Sten! There wasn't much there to begin with. I am fine that characters losing dept to gain direction.

It's interesting you mention KotOR2. Because that's a textbook example of how to construct a great sequel (Lucasarts meddling not withstanding). It managed to have a different story than the first, a different cast of characters, and yet managed to be entirely about Revan and the repercussions of his decisions. It also was a great deconstruction of the Star Wars franchise.

And I do not think either KotOR2 or Origins had a "boring 'you are special therefore you must save the world'" storyline.
That is a way to create a COD sequel, or one small type of sequel. The story line was the same, many character returned (some even party characters). Nothing is gain with a sequel like that but then again nothing is lost either. Nothing moves and it is boring. Also what? both characters are "special" and they both "must save the world." Last of the Jedi, last of the wardens. Bioware also did this story line with Jade Empire too. I wasn't bored of it with JE but the time DAO roles along come up with a new story already!

This was very rarely ever an issue (in the "I can't think of a single instance" sense) and where it did appear there was a very clear justification in characterization for the given reaction.

In fact, ironically enough, Dragon Age II was the game in which I had a real problem with what I thought was going to be said not actually being what was said.
Then you just suck as using the wheel. Play Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 you will get better at it.
Love to talk more but I have to go to school.
looking forward to your response! HEHEHEHEHE (evil laugh)!
 

StarCecil

New member
Feb 28, 2010
503
0
0
TorchofThanatos said:
Face palm! Okay writer lets do an exercise. Write me a short story like 4 pages long and the rewrite the opening paragraph 5 other times. Yes, it might change the mood or theme a little but it doesn't change the fact that it is the same story! When you return to your respected city no know recognizes you. There a small difference of some one yelling at you but that was it. Six openings for one game.
That's an inaccurate assessment, in my estimation. Again, going from a Human Noble, a scenario that played much more like a heroic epic, to a female elf mage I noticed a large chunk of character interaction was changed. There was a double-dose of racism thanks to being an elf and a mage. Almost all the personally-directed dialogue with Morrigan was changed for being a woman, a mage, and a few for being an elf. Dialogue with Wynne was severely overhauled for being a mage.

I truly don't know what more Bioware could have done to make each playthrough distinct.

As for your dwarf, with some reading-into of context you can perfectly see why your dwarf might not be paid attention to. A casteless was already as anonymous as can be to these people and there's no reason for them to have recognized you in the first place. An Aeducan was banished, basically, from the city and rendered casteless and all the people that count recognize him anyway.

Good review talk about other problems or points about the game that don't have to do with their options. Like "I hated the mages dream realm because it looked crapy." A good review will say "I hated the mages dream realm because the colour was most all brown and the entire level was out of focus." That is how a review should be done. Only stating option is useless.
A review essentially is opinion where such non-technical aspects are concerned. For the mage's dream segment of the game, I wouldn't say "I hated it because it looked crappy". I'd say, "I hated it because it was monochrome and run through a blur filter". Still an opinion. Still valid criticism.

While a portion of my criticism was hingent on personal opinion, there were also several complaints - even validated in this thread - leveled at objective portions of the gameplay. Namely, the poorly executed plot, the sometimes schizophrenic friendship/rivalry system, the vague dialogue wheel, and the flat characters.

Now, were I to really critique that segment I'd say, "The level was a bunch of bullshit for being a non-optional, unchanging piece of an already non-optional level that amounted to an hour of a half-assed puzzle game that consisted of brute-forcing your way through a series of corridors filled with enemies without your party, thus throwing off any equilibrium you had in your standard combat setup - basically the worst part of the last level of KotOR2".

Of course, I specifically mentioned in this review that I didn't touch upon the technical aspects that we can all agree are to the games detriment such as the repeat use of dungeon environments, the combat encounters, the stock animations, the awkwardly directed cutscenes, and the loads of bugs that seriously interfere with enjoyment.

The Count of Monte Cristo! There is a book that proves you wrong! When the man becomes the Count he lost character dept. The key is the dept was picked up of the other aspects of the story. His Revenge plot was massive and all the dept you need. You don't need deep characters to tell a good story. Sense and Sensibility, the Lord of the Rings good books that don't have a lot of character dept. Also the characters in the first game didn't have a lot of dept either. Bad mage, good mage, evil man, funny man, Sex elf, Sten! There wasn't much there to begin with. I am fine that characters losing dept to gain direction.
Not having read Monte Cristo, I'll have to take your interpretation of it at face value. However, I could argue that a grand revenge plot is indicative of brilliant strategy and foresight, or alternately of obsession and bloody-mindedness.

Lord of the Rings is something I can address, however. It was not character-driven and was in fact written as a type of mythology. It excelled at that. The closest analogue in Dragon Age would be Origins. However, I found that game to be heavily character driven. Dragon Age II, however, was expressly made to be character driven, given that the plot is, on the surface, supposed to be out a single man's rise to power and his effects on the world. Given also that this is a Bioware RPG - or that it's an RPG at all - and it's very obvious that they intended for it to be character motivated. However, each of the characters is disturbingly flat - especially compared to the characters in the first.

Which brings me to the next point. Yes, if one looks at it superficially, each of Origins' companions breaks down to good/evil on class lines. However, each character had a significant amount of depth to them regardless, as well as large amounts of subtext. Morrigan sticks out in my mind as one who is superficially evil, but has a volume of depth.

That is a way to create a COD sequel, or one small type of sequel. The story line was the same, many character returned (some even party characters). Nothing is gain with a sequel like that but then again nothing is lost either. Nothing moves and it is boring. Also what? both characters are "special" and they both "must save the world." Last of the Jedi, last of the wardens. Bioware also did this story line with Jade Empire too. I wasn't bored of it with JE but the time DAO roles along come up with a new story already!
KotOR2 was a brilliant sequel. Again, if you don't really look into it then it is a good/evil story. However, there was a significant injection of gray. The plot breaks down both staple RPG elements (such as leveling up and gaining XP) and staple Star Wars elements (the nature of the Force, the inherent "good" of the Jedi, the "evil" of the Sith and how the Jedi/Sith philosophies correlate). There was also the complete re-examination of Revan as a character; did he fall to the Dark Side or did he allow himself to fall to prevent a greater threat? And where did he learn the teachings of the Sith, teachings that were thought extinct in his lifetime? There was also the massive ending revelation that the one person through which all of the above is examined just happens to be the Sith Lord of Betrayal, calling into question the veracity of the entire game.

And KotOR2 had a really awesome system of developing your character by allowing you to debate your experiences as a Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars with people that already have preconceived notions about it.

COD is an interesting example. If they were to make "COD sequels" in an RPG, that would be shitty. However, Call of Duty's target demographic actually prefers it that way - all they want is new guns, new perks and new multiplayer maps without changing the core game. There are a select few players, myself included, that dislike the ever-shortening campaigns, the crackpot storylines and the stagnating game structure, as well as the effect on the overall market of First Person Shooters - but we're the periphery demographic and not in the majority.

Then you just suck as using the wheel. Play Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 you will get better at it.
Mass Effect at least had the excuse of only two basic options: Renegade and Paragon. Dragon Age II tried to keep up a certain level of ambiguity with the phrasing so as not to shoe-horn you into a good/evil type, seeing as the game goes to lengths to avoid that, but by adding the "sarcastic" option threw off the balance and made it difficult to really predict what was going to be said next.

Plus I thought the voice acting was really lackluster.
 

4173

New member
Oct 30, 2010
1,020
0
0
Everything else I can stand, but the combat was boring and unending.
 

StarCecil

New member
Feb 28, 2010
503
0
0
4173 said:
Everything else I can stand, but the combat was boring and unending.
In the strangest irony, I could stand the combat. Although, there was one thing that I thought was truly ridiculous: everyone explodes. Very hard to take seriously the plight of the mages when covered in the person-juice of a bandit that I hit with an ice cube.
 

ShadowsofHope

Outsider
Nov 1, 2009
2,623
0
0
StarCecil said:
My (favourite) Warden died killing the Archdemon. Awakening decided not.
That's something that in itself is bothersome. They really couldn't have figured out how to keep a dead Warden dead? At all?

And the very fact that one can't have a "true" playthrough without retconning their own death is a problem unto itself.
Ehm, just to cut in here momentarily, if your Grey Warden character commits the ultimate sacrifice in the original Origins plot, it is an Orlesian warden with a relatively blank slate that you are commandeering in Awakening. Or are you referring to some oddity in which a save game file before fighting the Archdemon was used to transfer into Awakening, and the Warden you choose to make the ultimate sacrifice with was "resurrected" as a result?
 

JesterRaiin

New member
Apr 14, 2009
2,286
0
0
Meaning Mage!Hawke will find himself with a bunch of shitty armor he can't use, because mages get the best use out of robes. Instead, the game upgrades your companions' armor for you based on relationship stats and accompanying quests, meaning you have to play their little psychotic game of Hawke's Many Personalities to get them end-game ready.
One thing i always loathed was a distortion of real world elements.
It took me a few years to accept wizards staying away from blades and axes (thank you early D&D editions), or omnipresent hate between dwarves, elves and orcs (thank you, uhhhhh, Tolkien ?), or finite companion slots in games (thank you game designers). But that armor thing... Wow. Just wow...

BTW : Thanx for sharing. It's nice to know that people are still capable of deep immersion. :)
 

Takolin

New member
Aug 21, 2011
117
0
0
StarCecil said:
Would the Viscount have really given a shit about you had you not done anything in the first act? Hawke had to first rise to prominence before he would even be granted and audience with the Viscount. Hawke also made inroads with Aveline in act 1 as well. Key plot elements that laid the groundwork for Act 2.
He probably wouldn't have cared, but the point is that I, the audience, didn't care about him. This was like the first time meeting him, and I'd probably heard his name once. It's not like in Origins when a character you have some basis with gives you a quest. It really comes off like some random old guy telling you to handle something that really isn't your problem. Also, it seemed to me as though the only reason he was giving Hawke this mission was because Hawke is the main character. Maybe I just didn't pay attention but what is Hawke really known for except having gotten his wealth on a Deep Roads expedition? Is that really enough to entrust him with important tasks of state concern?
There were a few clues in the 1st act that lead to that trust, but that assumes you did all side/secondary and companion quests.

On your siblings (well I played twice as a mage so I only have experience with Carver) companion quest to track down the will of your grandfather, Gamlen states that Hawke's mother would never get an audience with the Viskount due to her lack of standing and gold. By finishing the expedition, Hawke ensures he has the wealth to regain the mansion in high town and the standing amongst the wealthy. And it's more than likely in the 3 years between the 1st and 2nd act that he or his mother had plenty time playing the high society game and rebuild what Gamlen squandered.


You gain the trust of the Viskount in the 1st act by rescuing his son.


You've had dealing with the Qunari twice. Once while recovering the stolen goods from the dwarf who was planning to trade with the Arishok. And the second time while escorting the mage. The 2nd quest also implies that there's no love between the templars and the Qunari and that the "usual" routes of resolving conflict are blocked.


And then there's everything else you did and even though the Viskount may not have heard everything, he's bound to have heard a part of your actions and knows what you're capable of.
 

StarCecil

New member
Feb 28, 2010
503
0
0
ShadowsofHope said:
If you import an Ultimate Sacrifice save you effectively reverse your decision (which is actually paraphrasing the lead writer). The Orlesian Warden is for players they don't have a save to import (which really boggles the mind) and does not import information from Origins. That is something that just trips me the fuck out. It seems like the obvious thing to do would be to allow importing the relevant plot flags and allowing the player to make an Orlesian.

Takolin said:
Ah, yes, now I recall. His son was the loon that tried to join the Qunari. I don't know if I would still believe that qualifies Hawke to be saving the world, but there's little about this game I get. I still wish more steps had been taken to make the quest more personal, add some personal motivation. Part of what made Origins so compelling was the little touches that added a personal motivation to save the world. Playing as Hawke I just didn't find any motivation to care.