The White Male
- Thread starter Bob_McMillan
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So they do it because it's "safe" but for "arbitrary reasons"?... Sounds a bit like you're saying they do it for a specific reason but for reasonless reasons.erttheking said:
I don't think white characters are boring. I mean... Do you just mean aesthetically? If Wolverine is black starting in 2016, is he an intrinsically more interesting character, even if they keep everything else the same?
Ignoring that people would be pissed off if you alter an iconic character in any way... Let's suppose Wolverine was always black, and with exactly the same stories and events... Is he more interesting than the Wolverine we already have? Just by virtue of darker skin? Or do they need to alter his origins, or give him stereotypically-black affectations or something? Does his blackness have to become a focal point of the character to be valid?
Help me understand exactly what it is that you desire.
I'm not saying that characters are automatically better because they're black. I'm saying that the entertainment industry favors white heterosexual males as main characters, and it just gets frustrating after awhile. That and because so many companies don't care about good story telling, the white heterosexual males they put out tend to be rather badly written. It sucks on two levels.Sexual Harassment Panda said:
Ok, so you're frustrated.erttheking said:
When you say "badly written" that's an opinion. When you say "don't care" you're assigning intent. The former is fair, the latter kinda isn't. Who are these companies? Would you please name some of them?
It really depends on the context.Bob_McMillan said:
In my entire writing career, there is only one moment I am ashamed of - I once bought that argument you mention here and allowed one of my characters to be whitewashed in a science fiction story. The character in question was based on my best friend from high school, who was a first generation immigrant from Zimbabwe, quite black, and easily one of the best, if not THE best, programmers in the entire school. The editor in question removed one word from the descriptive sentence about him - "black" - and when I protested, hit me with the "does it really matter what colour his skin is - isn't caring about that kind of racist?" argument.
I wasn't prepared for that argument at the time, so I let it happen, and the word was removed. I should have said, "YES. It matters. It matters because he's based on a very real friend of mine who was black, and it matters because we live in a world with many minorities, and they WILL have a place of honour in the future. And for that matter, why do YOU care what colour he is?" But, I didn't say those things, and to this day I feel shame over it.
There is a distinct difference between adding voices and taking them away/preventing them from showing up. If the "does it really matter what colour somebody's skin is?" argument is being used to keep minority or non-Steve characters out of stories, then yes, it is racist. If it's being used to justify putting them in, then no, it's not. The former serves as a barrier, and the latter serves to enable.
(For the record, I am being vague about names for a reason, and the editor who did this is now long gone from the publication in question.)
(Edited to remove typos, and holy crap did I typo on this one...)
Activision is a pretty good one to name off, same with EA (Constantly homogenizing their games into bland boring crap, then axing the developer) and Ubi"Programing women is too hard for the game we have eight teams working on"soft. Mostly AAA developers really, though I imagine the publishers have a lot to do with it.Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I wasn't taking a side, so much as I was stating the fact that the "diversity at any cost" crowd is full of hypocrits because they are both the first and the loudest to cry out against any portrayal of women and minorities which doesn't conform to their very narrow view of how they should be portrayed.Spot1990 said:
While there are assholes on both sides, the hypocrisy which is exclusive to one of them is what makes them worst then the other.
And to your mind these are all examples of companies not caring about story telling?erttheking said:
When you say "Activision" I assume you mean CoD. They make genuine effort for those CoD games, I don't buy that they "don't care". I don't buy that EA don't care either. I think they try, I think they try hard... I think people just fail sometimes despite their best efforts. That's life. That's the reality of being in a creative field... The examples of glowing, transcendent work are always so few in number compared to those that are bad/mediocre or just fall flat despite the creators best intentions.
The Ubisoft example is ridiculous... It's not related. PR flubbery under scrutiny about why their game isn't different doesn't mean they don't care. If the release of the game was anything to go by, it would seem they already had too much on their plate for their allotted timescale. Angry twitter mobs that decided this was an issue 3 months before the game is supposed to come out were never going to be appeased. There was only 1 playable character, anyway... Arno. Arno with a purple cape and a beard slapped on is still Arno. Let's be real. There was basically zero customisation. Women weren't specifically left out. Everyone who wasn't Arno was left out...
Well, in terms of games, the only thing I'm really concerned about regarding this is when publishers step in and demand white male protagonists, namely because it once again means telling developers how to write their own stories. The scary thing is reading what Zontar said. I'd never thought of that. Are publishers avoiding non-white characters because they see each it as the only way to avoid controversy? That's kind of troubling.
Anyway, in the end, I'd never endorse telling developers how to pick the casting in their games. When you try to force it, the results are always stilted and kind of awkward. Of course, that's why I also would endorse telling publishers to leave those guys alone when it comes to creating the world for their game. I believe that developers should be comfortable writing characters of other races into their games, but that requires a mindset that people often acquire at an early age, so I suggest paving the way for a more diverse and open-minded generation of developers in the near future, rather than trying to change the guys already working on our games now.
Anyway, in the end, I'd never endorse telling developers how to pick the casting in their games. When you try to force it, the results are always stilted and kind of awkward. Of course, that's why I also would endorse telling publishers to leave those guys alone when it comes to creating the world for their game. I believe that developers should be comfortable writing characters of other races into their games, but that requires a mindset that people often acquire at an early age, so I suggest paving the way for a more diverse and open-minded generation of developers in the near future, rather than trying to change the guys already working on our games now.
Yes, the games industry, and mass media needs to expand their roster, by nationality, race, and gender. This is a thing that really does need to happen, as homogeneity and clichés need to be worked against in order to create stories of varied substance and worth, not just for the sake of diversity.
However, it should be noted that in the current media climate, the use of white male characters being 'safe' isn't just a matter of sales.
When a female protagonist is hurt or endangered, the media screams misogyny, or rape culture. When a black character is given a criminal history, the scream is racism. This doesn't just extend to main characters, mind you.
Remember in Deus Ex, when one of the early gameplay videos showed him meeting a homeless black woman in Detroit, and she talked like a crazy homeless person? That character was removed because people screamed racism.
So, imagine, when a bunch of creators are sitting in a room, bouncing ideas around. They know the media slog they're jumping into, because they've done it before. If their character is a woman, she better not be in too dangerous a situation, or act too provocative, or be too manly, or look too sexy, or not sexy enough. Any misstep will get the journalist outlets that will be the sole original source for information about their game haranguing them as monsters.
While I think more creators need to buck this trend; to create more varied characters from different backgrounds/races/what-have-you, it is pretty easy to understand why people marketing a product to sell would take the path with the least offensive complaint that can be levied against it.
"Your white male character is boring" does a lot less damage to sales than "Your female characters are misogynistic" or "Your ethnic characters are racist".
The best way to encourage companies and creators to expand their diversity in games and other media, is to promote media that shows these types of characters as people, warts and all. Until they see they can make a profit (and yes, in the end, it is about profit) off of breaking a mold that works, they won't.
However, it should be noted that in the current media climate, the use of white male characters being 'safe' isn't just a matter of sales.
When a female protagonist is hurt or endangered, the media screams misogyny, or rape culture. When a black character is given a criminal history, the scream is racism. This doesn't just extend to main characters, mind you.
Remember in Deus Ex, when one of the early gameplay videos showed him meeting a homeless black woman in Detroit, and she talked like a crazy homeless person? That character was removed because people screamed racism.
So, imagine, when a bunch of creators are sitting in a room, bouncing ideas around. They know the media slog they're jumping into, because they've done it before. If their character is a woman, she better not be in too dangerous a situation, or act too provocative, or be too manly, or look too sexy, or not sexy enough. Any misstep will get the journalist outlets that will be the sole original source for information about their game haranguing them as monsters.
While I think more creators need to buck this trend; to create more varied characters from different backgrounds/races/what-have-you, it is pretty easy to understand why people marketing a product to sell would take the path with the least offensive complaint that can be levied against it.
"Your white male character is boring" does a lot less damage to sales than "Your female characters are misogynistic" or "Your ethnic characters are racist".
The best way to encourage companies and creators to expand their diversity in games and other media, is to promote media that shows these types of characters as people, warts and all. Until they see they can make a profit (and yes, in the end, it is about profit) off of breaking a mold that works, they won't.
I don't know that this is entirely accurate, but I applaud your ability to muster some empathy for the creators. I get sick of people ignorantly asserting that they're feckless or else evil.kitsunefather said:
It was something straight off the streets of modern-day IRL Detroit. Or any major city in North America, but Detroit is by far the worst. Homeless people exist, some of them talk like crazy people, and some of them are black women. What's the problem?Hoplon said:
I've seen this claimed a few times, but my experience has been quite the opposite-- those who I recognise who often argue in favour of greater diversity tend to be the ones defending instances in which it occurs (including myself).Zontar said: