the "Why didn't they just shoot Voldemort?" thread
- Thread starter DudeistBelieve
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Megaman... calm down. I know exactly the scenario you have been describing, but what you have never done is given any reason for why it would happen. District 9 the aliens were not hunted down and imprisoned, they were barely competent refugees that were fenced in and never made any serious attempt to break out.mega48man said:oh my fucking GODTreblaine said:You call me Rush Limbaugh then immediately trot out the fallacy of "look at the big picture"... which is a fallacy as it asks to ignore the small and IMPORTANT details!
Magical act of terrorism? Why would all wizards been rounded up for that when we have lived with terrorism for decades now and haven't resorted to that. This is paranoia. Why would we commit genocide against wizards who could cure world hunger... if they could be bloody well bothered to.
"you must not live in america. after 9/11, EVERY muslim american was seen as a walking bomb. at the airports when they do "random selective screenings" every name they call is muslim +1 pretty white girl. they got a REALLY bad wrap, you must not live in a diverse area. i'm from metro detroit, HUGE muslim population in detroit."
I work on proof. Where is your proof that "every Muslim was seen as a walking bomb", how do I know that is not just your personal prejudice? In practice they lost no particular civil liberties, all of use (both sides of atlantic) came under higher security precautions. Where is the proof that they were excessively targeted by random searches? If you mean actual questioning it's not unreasonable to actually investigate someone for terrorist indoctrination from where they have been. It's as bad as some frat guy travelling back from Thailand to being searched for smuggling drugs!
It's pretty obvious they are not thorough enough as with several Muslim bombers who almost succeeded in detonating a bomb on a plane, the Shoe-bomber then the underpants bomber. Now EVERYONE has to have their shoes x-rayed, EVERYONE gets deep frisked. Those bombings were only foiled by the excessive security measures (that everyone endured) that made the bombs so small and impractical that they were too hard to properly detonate.
"just look at mr. weasly! he's fascinated by them (muggles)!"
Never once used his awesome magical powers to save the millions of muggles in need. Though he easily could have. He's fascinated by them like exotica animals, not as people, not as equals. He sees them as quaint.
TLR If you insist on ignoring all of my uncomfortable points that every wizard in Harry Potter is a total jerk then I suggest you don't take part in this debate. Because Rowling has through naivete created a horribly unjust world, but tried to present it in a whimsical and extremely one sided way.
I don't think you realise how much I and so many others wish you could just wave a magic wand and make these horrible things of the world end. Only someone who has lived an extremely sheltered life in the west could see muggles as being lazy and exploitative to want wizard magic... and what do you know, the main target market for Harry Potter.
[HEADING=1]REMEMBER DISTRICT 9? DID YOU SEE THAT MOVIE? OK, SAME THING BUT WITH WIZARDS, THAT'S WHY THEY STAY IN HIDING. GOD DAMMIT.[/HEADING]
"just look at mr. weasly! he's fascinated by them (muggles)!"
you stare at animals in a zoo and go "WOW THAT'S AWESOME!" but do you help them by freeing them into the wild? no because that's AGAINST THE FUCKING RULES
you work on proof eh? well you know what? IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME i don't need to pull up an article about it because most people in america have heard about those dumb selective screenings they do on airplanes and in airports that started years ago. and when i said every Muslim was seen as a walking bomb, i didn't mean the government began tracking them (although i bet they do) but i meant that most people starting holding a strong prejudice towards muslims after 9/11.
it's been over 10 years now and we've gotten over it. but back then there was this muslim kid in our social studies class who was talking about the strong prejudices held towards muslims following 9/11, and he felt a little condemed by all of it. as the class clown he said "if you type muslim in google it will say "did you mean bomb?" funny guy.
seriously, if you want to have a discussion about the hypothetical (what would happen if wizards reveal themselves) don't say "i work on proof" because everything is [HEADING=1]fucking hypothetical[/HEADING]
[HEADING=1]NOW I AM JUMPING OUT THIS WINDOW[/HEADING]
[HEADING=1]AND INTO A DIFFERENT THREAD[/HEADING]
"but do you help them by freeing them (Zoo animals) into the wild?"
I have in fact donated to Zoo-run programs that try to reintroduce wild animals back into the wild. Though the vast majority raised in captivity couldn't survive in the wild and were taken into zoos because they were too sick to survive in the wild. Also, these are ANIMALS! Wizards are people who CAN survive in their environment and are reasoning beings, no need nor excuse to lock them up and stare at them like zoo animals. They are just people with magical abilities. Why would there be any comparison to Zoo animals?
"everything is FUCKING HYPOTHETICAL"
First, Calm down. Second, everything isn't hypothetical. Even then, a hypothesis has to be based on some empirical facts. The thing is modern western society is far more tolerant and accepting than the Wizards have demonstrated, there is no reason for wizards to make this assumption of subjugation by the muggles.
damn, i forgot about my gifs from photobucket, oh well. anyway;Treblaine said:
[HEADING=2]this thread used to be about why harry didn't just shoot voldemort, now we're talking about district 9[/HEADING]
[HEADING=2]^this thread[/HEADING]
Dude... YOU(!) brought up district 9! Now you are complaining about how District 9 was mentioned when you are the one forcing discussion in that direction! You have derailed this thread and now think you can end this discussion by pointing that out?mega48man said:damn, i forgot about my gifs from photobucket, oh well. anyway;Treblaine said:
[HEADING=1]SSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH[/HEADING]
[HEADING=2]this thread used to be about why harry didn't just shoot voldemort, now we're talking about district 9[/HEADING]
[HEADING=2]^this thread[/HEADING]
Nope.avi
Back on the rails: Rowling is naive and lazy writer, has inadvertently made all her wizards racist/elitist jerks who you can have very little sympathy for. You can't argue against these points so you derail this thread with irrelevant District 9 comparisons. Stop it.
Sorry, but this "Why didn't they shoot Voldemort" argument is just garbage. It's bewildering that anyone is so desperate to claim that "Harry Potter is crap" that they'll go to any ridiculous argument they can to try to validate their point. Even so, let me go through it here.
First, you point out that the powder might not combust, which it probably wouldn't, to which you suggest "magic" powder. Even assuming that any of them knew how the inner workings of a gun operate, who's to say they could easily invent "magic gunpowder" that would work exactly the same as normal gunpowder and not destroy the gun? Hell, why can't they just send the bullet at him as quickly as a gun by magic? That brings me to the next point....
Let's ignore the argument of "Where the hell are they supposed to get a gun?"SaneAmongInsane said:
First, you point out that the powder might not combust, which it probably wouldn't, to which you suggest "magic" powder. Even assuming that any of them knew how the inner workings of a gun operate, who's to say they could easily invent "magic gunpowder" that would work exactly the same as normal gunpowder and not destroy the gun? Hell, why can't they just send the bullet at him as quickly as a gun by magic? That brings me to the next point....
Voldemort doesn't need to speak to perform magic. He can conjure a thick metal shield out of nothing in a fraction of a second, and since he is a Legilimens (he can read minds basically) he would instantly know what you were trying to do with it. By that, I assume the response would be "oh they could use a long range sniper rifle", but again even if you're assuming that they would know how to use a gun or could hire a muggle who did and erase his memory later (assuming they could find one that is), who's to say that he couldn't sense the bullet coming? Voldemort has improved his magical and mental capabilities at the cost of everything else, that he isn't even human anymore. Who's to say he couldn't see it coming?SaneAmongInsane said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
Here's my reason.
The story is about the Heroes Journey and guns don't fit in this kind of story,
Guns are very low skill, Yes I know many guns are dangerous and require practice but let me put it this way.
in some area's people are killed because some idiot got his hands on a gun, not even a large one a low caliber pistol. That's not as true with something like swords or even magic the power comes form the person using it. The Story of Harry Potter is about a person who is unique, they have the ability to do the impossible.
Guns ruin this, anyone who has a gun can do damage, Gun itself also tends to lack meaning, it's just a weapon, it's very rare (it happens in some stories but not many) that the gun used by the hero means anything more than a weapon, Harry's wand is highly meaning full it has a story it CHOSE him.
So yes if they used a gun it would be over, but then the story wouldn't be as interesting.
Another Point, Gun fights require something else to make them Dynamic, with swords or spells it's possible, Swords it a series of thrusts and parries, it's tense as you watch wondering who will win, same with magic they can blast at things but they can also block and counter each others spells.
Guns no such thing, you can't stop a bullet, yes there's armor but those tend to be reserved for fake outs. so instead there has to be a reason they keep missing, they move around a lot, There's lot of things to hide behind, oh and in many movies, the hero can get close, so they engage in hand to hand combat.
now some of this (Running ducking for cover) is done with spells, but on the other hand the fact that they can be blocked, and that the spells have a visible projectile they have a bit more effect then just some bullet holes.
So I accept that a gun would be possible but that would make the movie worse not better.
The story is about the Heroes Journey and guns don't fit in this kind of story,
Guns are very low skill, Yes I know many guns are dangerous and require practice but let me put it this way.
in some area's people are killed because some idiot got his hands on a gun, not even a large one a low caliber pistol. That's not as true with something like swords or even magic the power comes form the person using it. The Story of Harry Potter is about a person who is unique, they have the ability to do the impossible.
Guns ruin this, anyone who has a gun can do damage, Gun itself also tends to lack meaning, it's just a weapon, it's very rare (it happens in some stories but not many) that the gun used by the hero means anything more than a weapon, Harry's wand is highly meaning full it has a story it CHOSE him.
So yes if they used a gun it would be over, but then the story wouldn't be as interesting.
Another Point, Gun fights require something else to make them Dynamic, with swords or spells it's possible, Swords it a series of thrusts and parries, it's tense as you watch wondering who will win, same with magic they can blast at things but they can also block and counter each others spells.
Guns no such thing, you can't stop a bullet, yes there's armor but those tend to be reserved for fake outs. so instead there has to be a reason they keep missing, they move around a lot, There's lot of things to hide behind, oh and in many movies, the hero can get close, so they engage in hand to hand combat.
now some of this (Running ducking for cover) is done with spells, but on the other hand the fact that they can be blocked, and that the spells have a visible projectile they have a bit more effect then just some bullet holes.
So I accept that a gun would be possible but that would make the movie worse not better.
Maybe Voldemort had himself charmed as he did his horcruxes. You had to use something magical to destroy those, you couldn't just shoot it. I doubt he's about to go around after he has already died without the utmost of protection as he can have. Also, while it wasn't said in the movies, in the books you could cast spells without saying anything, the saying stuff is just to help with concentration. And you can perform magic without a wand also, I bet Voldemort could have found something out within the 14 years as a ghost to that effect. It is a slightly big hole, but there is enough there to infer what might be the reasoning of it.SaneAmongInsane said:
How can he charm himself against something he has absolutely no concept of?klaynexas3 said:
The best argument I've heard against it is the fact that one can not get firearms in London.... However that does give me pause to wonder where the hell were all the AMERICAN Wizards during all this shit. I mean, they play other schools in the Quiditich game.
Pretty much this in a nutshell. Once someone says, "Hey, Prime Minister, you need to launch a cruise missile attack on this spot, don't ask why, just do it!" the books are done.FalloutJack said:
"Hey, there is a standoff at Hogwarts which has shielding physical objects cannot penetrate? One nuclear armed aircraft inbound. Give it twenty minutes..."
Oh wait, the UK doesn't have Nuclear armed aircraft anymore. Better call up good ole 'Merica and get an ICBM or Cruise missile on it... Surely there is an American fleet, or at least an AEGIS cruiser, nearby.
Fred and George make firecrackers, Magic Gunpowder or not, shit can be made to explode on commandC2Ultima said:
That is a Bullshit answer. I already suggested earlier, CRUISE MISSILE!
The Rebels on Star Wars HAD nuclear weapons of their own, what do you think a "Proton Torpedo" really is? A fission weapon.
I don't recall him saying it was bad at all in the OP, but maybe he has since then, I missed out. Anyway, flaws make something harder to believe, and that makes something less enjoyable because it breaks the flow. I loved Harry Potter, but it isn't even in the top 6 lists of my favorite Non-Star Wars series (There are two Star Wars series that push it down even further). It was enjoyable, but there are other things that I enjoyed more because they had much less glaring plotholes.
This is what I would have done had I been a Muggle Minister.
"Hey, would you like some help? I have a team that can shoot something the size of a (insert small British coin then hold one up for emphasis) from nearly 2 kilometers away. Or, you know, we have giant mobile fortresses that shoot shells the size of your head 16 kilometers before exploding. How about I round up a bunch of them and we make this sodder pay?"
Maybe that is just the fact that I have been reading Tom Clancy novels since I was 13, but that sounds even more awesome...
The charm is just against anything none magical, it isn't specific to certain types of damage, it just has to be something that is powerful enough that it continuously harms him. Like if they made a bullet out of a basalisk fang, or dipped it in the venom, that might have done something. The wizarding community knows what guns are, they just have no use for them. They always have their wands on them and the wands can kill people just as easily as a gun could if they so wished. Why would they ever even need a gun with this type of power at hand?SaneAmongInsane said:
Also, let's think about this logically. Voldemort only came out of hiding totally for one year before he died, probably even less. Harry had no way of getting close to him, and neither did anyone opposing him. He became the ruler of the British wizarding community, and his only enemies were also wizards, so it was a very small group. How exactly would they ever even get the chance to shoot him? Except for in the end, they really wouldn't have gotten such a chance, and at that point, Harry killed him fairly easily with a wand, so a better question than "Why didn't they just shoot Voldemort," would be "Why on earth would they try something so impractical as an assassination with a gun?" It was much safer to slowly chip away at his extra lives first, then kill him, than just to run in guns a blazing, possibly fail, and even then if someone else succeeds, they would still have to destroy the horcruxes anyway. You might as well chip away at the armor out of sight before you go in for the kill.
And as for the American wizards, maybe they still operate under the Monroe Doctrine of staying out of Europe's business. It's not like they ever show up, even for Quiditch. All the other countries they play are European or Slavacian. It's not like Voldemort became ruler of the world, it was only Magical Britain.
I'm going to call you out on that one. The only opposing forces of Voldemort was a small group of rebels that had two years to prepare any resistance. They don't exactly have access to missles. Explosives, sure, that's easy to make, but I'm doubting they have legitimate missles. And had they asked any muggles to help, my main guess would be that the muggles would just destroy the entire wizarding world, not just the tyrant wizard. It might not have happened that way, but that's something worth being afraid of, especially in a world where you already have to hide your own existance for safety.Spade Lead said:
Man that would be so hardcore. Like if Hagrid or someone just pulls out a gun and "Blap Blap"; book's over before it started.
Okay, I'm gonna disclaim this by saying I only really know the movie-verse....klaynexas3 said:
SHENANIGANS! I CALL SHENANIGANS!
THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT GUNS ARE!
They freaking state that no one is INTERESTED in the muggles or what technology they have. Freaking Ron Weasley's father is the only cat who pays attention to them, because that's his job, and... Christ did you see what era car that he had that he thought was so novel? Or even the giant dude's motorcycle? All of it out of date in a very contemporary earth (last movie, the girl in the sand which shop was rocking an Ipod).
They do NOT have the concept muggle weapons, if they did at all it would be grossly out of date. I can not believe their spell can just protect them from things they don't even have a concept of. Would the charm protect against a tazer? Hell, even more extreme, by that logic we could drop a nuke on Volde and he could survive that too.
Also, yeah I like the theory of the "Magic Gun". The advantage of a gun over a wand? The person you'd be trying to kill would be expecting a wand, they wouldn't have any clue what a gun is until the bullet hits them. And even then they're going to be all "WTF?"
Okay, good point, HOWEVER practically every movie ends with Harry coming face to face with Volde's knew incarnation. Fucker was going to keep showing up, after about the 2nd time, Harry doesn't consider anything else to protect him except magic? Like... Homeboy is spending his summers IN OUR WORLD! He didn't go to a movie or watch something on TV, see a movie with a gun and think "Maybe?"
With a gun, the first time he encounters Voldemort with him, he could just blast him with it when the guy isn't expecting it... BAM! Dead Volde. And you could probably get away with this AT LEAST once if not TWICE before Voldemort figures out a way to defend himself.
And yeah, Harry still has to get the Horcruxes but it takes a while for Voldemort to reform so he's actively buying himself time.
[qoute]And as for the American wizards, maybe they still operate under the Monroe Doctrine of staying out of Europe's business. It's not like they ever show up, even for Quiditch. All the other countries they play are European or Slavacian. It's not like Voldemort became ruler of the world, it was only Magical Britain.[/quote]
If I'm not mistaken, America is represented in the Quiditch video game is it not? Then again, is that even Cannon?
Because J.K. Rowling wanted more of a seven year epic and less seven second COD gun wanking. This is what we call "thinking about something too much," because really when you get down to it, every single modern fantasy could have been solved with weapons. The problem is that would've made it as boring as fuck, and do we really want that?
Amen, sir.coolbeans21 said:
"I've got a fallen angel in my head, begging to show me the secrets of the universe. The leader of the Black Denarians, a guy who's been around since before Christ and has forgotten more about magic than Merlin ever knew, would make me his apprentice. The immortal Queen of the Winter Fae means to have me as her Knight. I've got a dozen supernatural superheavyweights falling all over themselves trying to give me more power, and a dozen more who owe me favors.
"Now, listen up, because I'm only going to tell you this once. You want to tango with me, that's fine. Maybe you'll win, maybe you won't. But if you ever come at me through my friends or family again, I am going to accept every one of those offers. Then I am going to cash in every one of my chips. And then I am going to come for you.
"Now, run away, little monster, and hide in your hole." -- The Mad Wizard, Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, to Mavra (heavily paraphrased as I can't be arsed to look it up)
OT: What is the name of the trope that means, "this villain is too badass to die from mundane means such as gunfire. He must be killed in a special way -- for example, by being simultaneously strangled, thrown off a cliff, shot, and blown up"?
The only real answer is, "It served the needs of the story to have Voldemort survive until the end."
You're overthinking it.