The Writers of BioWare
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Absolutely nail on the head.
I love Bioware games, they are great games, but its sad that they are great games almost by default.
They are really the only dev studio (with an honourable mention to Obsidian, and also I guess to the devs of the Witcher) who actually deal with real characters and real conquences to your actions. But in terms of gameplay? They really haven't evolved since Baldur's Gate 2. I mean Dragon Age was great precisely BECAUSE it was essentially Baldur's Gate 2. Compare the actual gameplay mechanics and you'll find that apart from graphical changes the game is 99% the same.
You're right about the two types of good RPGs which essentially boils down to Bethesda style RPGs and Bioware style RPGs (JRPGs are a non issue really.). Bethesda make a lot but spread the characterisation thin. The point is theres really no technical reason for it to be that way.
Taken in its most basic terms Bioware has a cadre of characters who react to conversation trees and as the game progresses more trees open up based upon past responses. Theres no real technical or gameplay limitation that precludes these things being included in Bethesda style RPGs its just that in general they aren't due to differing design philosophies.
If Bethesda got serious about characters we might see a game that would redefine gaming for this generation, the sort of game we really haven't seen since Half Life.
With regards to your specific point about the formulaic nature of bioware games, this link says it better than I ever could.
http://gza.gameriot.com/content/images/orig_320200_1_1257581825.png
I love Bioware games, they are great games, but its sad that they are great games almost by default.
They are really the only dev studio (with an honourable mention to Obsidian, and also I guess to the devs of the Witcher) who actually deal with real characters and real conquences to your actions. But in terms of gameplay? They really haven't evolved since Baldur's Gate 2. I mean Dragon Age was great precisely BECAUSE it was essentially Baldur's Gate 2. Compare the actual gameplay mechanics and you'll find that apart from graphical changes the game is 99% the same.
You're right about the two types of good RPGs which essentially boils down to Bethesda style RPGs and Bioware style RPGs (JRPGs are a non issue really.). Bethesda make a lot but spread the characterisation thin. The point is theres really no technical reason for it to be that way.
Taken in its most basic terms Bioware has a cadre of characters who react to conversation trees and as the game progresses more trees open up based upon past responses. Theres no real technical or gameplay limitation that precludes these things being included in Bethesda style RPGs its just that in general they aren't due to differing design philosophies.
If Bethesda got serious about characters we might see a game that would redefine gaming for this generation, the sort of game we really haven't seen since Half Life.
With regards to your specific point about the formulaic nature of bioware games, this link says it better than I ever could.
http://gza.gameriot.com/content/images/orig_320200_1_1257581825.png
Alistair...not emo? If he wasn't whining about *insert spoiler here* than it meant he wasn't in your party.Xandus117 said:
I eagerly await Shamus' new video game/movie/book/etc... oh wait? He creates nothing and instead judges everyone else??? Wow, I had NO IDEA. Actual writer's don't have time to put others down. Cheers. 
I thought it was an interesting article, and I really didn't see him "Putting anyone down" here. It's a valid point, the judgement of whether or not it's a good thing or whether we like what Bioware does or not isn't something Shamus is stating directly, he's leaving it to the reader.
Personally, I love Bioware games. Yes, there are similar archetypes being used, but you could say that about these kinds of stories in general. And I can handle Alistair being a reincarnation of Carth, it's like having an old friend of the family come to visit; Sure you know most of his jokes, but it's still fun to have the guy around, and they may occasionally surprise you still.
Personally, I love Bioware games. Yes, there are similar archetypes being used, but you could say that about these kinds of stories in general. And I can handle Alistair being a reincarnation of Carth, it's like having an old friend of the family come to visit; Sure you know most of his jokes, but it's still fun to have the guy around, and they may occasionally surprise you still.
The article material wasn't exactly new, though many similarities indeed existed.
First things first. Neither Garrus (good heavens!) nor Alistair qualify for being "emo" (the damn word is so overused it doesn't really have a proper meaning anymore). Garrus is simply a youngster that wants to change the world, or at the very least, to see justice done. However, his father is a rule-freak. The commanding line of C-Sec are rule freaks. Hell, Garrus was chosen to become a Spectre, the highest honor he could imagine. In turian society, honor is above all. Imagine the utter frustration when his father turns the offer down in his name - not only has Garrus lost the chance of a lifetime for being one of the revered elite agents in the galaxy, but his pride was also hurt by his father, who decided in his place. I mean, if one of my parents ever made a decision for me that denies something important to me, I'd be pissed off of them and everything they stand for, too. C-Sec was just that for Garrus - a metaphorical prison, where rules were above justice. That's why he was sometimes acting a bit disregardful for laws in favor of vigilante justice. The salarian doctor who escaped his grasp was yet another drop. After all that, how do you NOT get grumbly and brooding at times? Garrus was pretty much my favourite teammate in Mass Effect, so damn it, lay off his back!
Now, for Alistair. Emo? Lolno. Whiny and childish? Yes. Whoever can call the mourning of his freshly lost father-figure that pulled him out of the hated place of growing up emo, is an insensitive bastard. I'm sorry, that's just how it is. Landsmeet and the stuff around that one? That's just being childish and running away from responsibility. Not emo.
As for the familiar characters... why reinvent the wheel? Why drastically change something that works? I am so tired of the modern day obsession with originality. Yeah, it is great to have original works, but good lord, demanding it from EVERY single work of fiction that comes out is a bit of an overkill. Another thing - people like nothing more than the stuff they are familiar with. So why change a formula that works? Sure, I will admit, there are similarities in the story base of Bioware games. So what? I still greatly enjoy the stories. I mean, look at Star Wars. Heck, just look at this review [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25zE6cs2vtw] by Angry Video Game Nerd. It explains it all.
Another thing. People should not expect top novel quality writing from video games. Just stop. Please, all you'll get will be disappointment. The quality of writing will always be sacrificed for the sake of the quality of gameplay. You will always be the underdog rising to power in order to beat the Big Bad Evil Guy. Why? The RPG mechanics say so. The game level mechanics say so. You will always be fighting The Army Of Evil. Why? To level up. To get that loot from somewhere. Sure, there may be some exceptions to the rule, but in most RPGs, it just doesn't happen. So why exactly should Bioware get all the flak for the limitations of the genre and the medium itself? No idea. I guess because they are currently on the spotlight.
First things first. Neither Garrus (good heavens!) nor Alistair qualify for being "emo" (the damn word is so overused it doesn't really have a proper meaning anymore). Garrus is simply a youngster that wants to change the world, or at the very least, to see justice done. However, his father is a rule-freak. The commanding line of C-Sec are rule freaks. Hell, Garrus was chosen to become a Spectre, the highest honor he could imagine. In turian society, honor is above all. Imagine the utter frustration when his father turns the offer down in his name - not only has Garrus lost the chance of a lifetime for being one of the revered elite agents in the galaxy, but his pride was also hurt by his father, who decided in his place. I mean, if one of my parents ever made a decision for me that denies something important to me, I'd be pissed off of them and everything they stand for, too. C-Sec was just that for Garrus - a metaphorical prison, where rules were above justice. That's why he was sometimes acting a bit disregardful for laws in favor of vigilante justice. The salarian doctor who escaped his grasp was yet another drop. After all that, how do you NOT get grumbly and brooding at times? Garrus was pretty much my favourite teammate in Mass Effect, so damn it, lay off his back!
Now, for Alistair. Emo? Lolno. Whiny and childish? Yes. Whoever can call the mourning of his freshly lost father-figure that pulled him out of the hated place of growing up emo, is an insensitive bastard. I'm sorry, that's just how it is. Landsmeet and the stuff around that one? That's just being childish and running away from responsibility. Not emo.
As for the familiar characters... why reinvent the wheel? Why drastically change something that works? I am so tired of the modern day obsession with originality. Yeah, it is great to have original works, but good lord, demanding it from EVERY single work of fiction that comes out is a bit of an overkill. Another thing - people like nothing more than the stuff they are familiar with. So why change a formula that works? Sure, I will admit, there are similarities in the story base of Bioware games. So what? I still greatly enjoy the stories. I mean, look at Star Wars. Heck, just look at this review [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25zE6cs2vtw] by Angry Video Game Nerd. It explains it all.
Another thing. People should not expect top novel quality writing from video games. Just stop. Please, all you'll get will be disappointment. The quality of writing will always be sacrificed for the sake of the quality of gameplay. You will always be the underdog rising to power in order to beat the Big Bad Evil Guy. Why? The RPG mechanics say so. The game level mechanics say so. You will always be fighting The Army Of Evil. Why? To level up. To get that loot from somewhere. Sure, there may be some exceptions to the rule, but in most RPGs, it just doesn't happen. So why exactly should Bioware get all the flak for the limitations of the genre and the medium itself? No idea. I guess because they are currently on the spotlight.
Oh, I'm not saying that they aren't thin on story. I'm saying that BioWare is no better.MaxTheReaper said:
"You're a badass soldier. Go kill things, and find this ancient relic before the bad guys do."
Yaaaaaaay!
Also, Dragon Age has plenty of morally gray choices. I don't want to post any of them, because spoilers r bad and I don't know how to do that 'spoiler' thing where you click on it to reveal it.
Anywho...Dragon Age has some flaws, but its kept me playing for over 200 hours, so it has to be doing something right.
Oh, and did anyone else notice the lovingly realized and in depth religions in the game? I found it downright fascinating and well done and all sorts of other nerdy things. Like...you could fucking worship the Chant of Light in the real world and it'd mostly fit. Mostly.
(course, that might be cause they borrowed a lot from the early Catholic church, but whatever, Andraste is cooler than Jesus.)
Also, Dragon Age has plenty of morally gray choices. I don't want to post any of them, because spoilers r bad and I don't know how to do that 'spoiler' thing where you click on it to reveal it.
Anywho...Dragon Age has some flaws, but its kept me playing for over 200 hours, so it has to be doing something right.
Oh, and did anyone else notice the lovingly realized and in depth religions in the game? I found it downright fascinating and well done and all sorts of other nerdy things. Like...you could fucking worship the Chant of Light in the real world and it'd mostly fit. Mostly.
(course, that might be cause they borrowed a lot from the early Catholic church, but whatever, Andraste is cooler than Jesus.)
Most things new are things old, but well forgotten. Dragon Age is such a well-done and huge game, I'm sure most of the haters, if there are any reading this topic, would find something they actually like about the game, if they can stick around long enough with it, heck, the party banter alone is a good enough reason to buy this game, enjoy it and spend countless hours with it. And as someone already pointed out, this is not a problem, if you'd like to call it that, with Bioware, or even with games in general, it's a persistent trait of the entertainment industry. With Bioware the games are actually remarkable though, people remember them for a long time, hence they finish a Bioware game and think "This was awesome yet again, if only it didn't seem so familiar". The Witcher is the only RPG game I can think of (mind you, I don't pretend to be an expert so there might be more that I don't know of) with an original story, probably because it's based on the works of a Polish writer. Sadly,
all the gray-area moral choices in the Witcher, and by that I mean moral dilemmas that can leave you pondering for half an hour about what to choose the first time you reach them, at the end don't matter
Personally I believe Bioware has managed to maintain a level of originality; as masqueraded as it may be, primarily due to the setting of their games. KotoR is based upon the Star Wars fantasy; Jade Empire takes place in a factious China and Mass Effect in Outer Space. The only game to return to familiar standings is Dragon Age, albeit Baldur's Gate is largely thought ancient by today's standards, thus such is lost, and DA flourishes.
Either way it is remarkable the praise the company receives and near worship status amongst gamers - many of whom dislike other roleplaying games - is this wide spread in spite of similarities in their titles. They certainly have done something correct.
Either way it is remarkable the praise the company receives and near worship status amongst gamers - many of whom dislike other roleplaying games - is this wide spread in spite of similarities in their titles. They certainly have done something correct.
I can't really associate with the non-fantasy RPG references. Perhaps if you'd included some of their much older RPGs.
I am offended by this article because, and this is the only reason, there are no characters from Baldur's Gate mentioned. I realize that they may not be as fleshed out as some of their later characters are, but still, it's Baldur's Gate dammit! Come on! It was the beginning of D&D gaming awesomeness!
So, you know, at least add Minsc to the list, because he's a pretty awesome character. And Imoen, she's pretty complex too. And Jaheira, for the love story(but not Khaleid cause it might get awkward). Oh, and Viconia, she's got the moral issues. And obviously Boo, the best miniature giant space hamster that ever lived, because...well...he makes that adorable squeak when you try to take him from Minsc's inventory. That's all Boo needs for his place in the museum of great characters.
So, you know, at least add Minsc to the list, because he's a pretty awesome character. And Imoen, she's pretty complex too. And Jaheira, for the love story(but not Khaleid cause it might get awkward). Oh, and Viconia, she's got the moral issues. And obviously Boo, the best miniature giant space hamster that ever lived, because...well...he makes that adorable squeak when you try to take him from Minsc's inventory. That's all Boo needs for his place in the museum of great characters.
Giant Space Hamsters did exist in old AD&D... in the Spelljammer setting. It was pretty nutty. Minsc believes his to be a miniature version (instead of, you know, a normal hamster), because of yet another recurring trope - being crazy makes you meta (and sometimes medium-aware).Elementlmage said:
Lets add BG2&NWN2 characters to the list.
The Remorseless Killer : Khelgar, maybe Ammon Jerro
The Berzerker : Korgan, Bishop
The Pilgrim : Nalia, Neeshka
The Emo : Aerie, Shandra Jerro
The Shrew : Viconia, Qara
The Mentor : Imoen (not old but gives the background of setting), Sand
The Pet : Boo, Construct
Black Isle, Bioware, Obsidian all have the same cliches going I guess.
The Remorseless Killer : Khelgar, maybe Ammon Jerro
The Berzerker : Korgan, Bishop
The Pilgrim : Nalia, Neeshka
The Emo : Aerie, Shandra Jerro
The Shrew : Viconia, Qara
The Mentor : Imoen (not old but gives the background of setting), Sand
The Pet : Boo, Construct
Black Isle, Bioware, Obsidian all have the same cliches going I guess.