Sir, I think I might be in love with you, you sucked the words straight out of my mind. e_eBelated said:-snip-
I am in total agreement, people who say that just piss me off and evade the problem at hand.
Sir, I think I might be in love with you, you sucked the words straight out of my mind. e_eBelated said:-snip-
Never head it with Africa, but I am constantally told there's hungry kids in china...Belated said:*snip*(
Agree with you partially.Generic Gamer said:I hate that argument, it's always tempting to come back with 'ah yes...but WHY are they starving?'
Besides, some of the most jaw droppingly moronic charity campaigns are tied in to the idea that Africans need 'uplifting' to a Western lifestyle. The lack of priorities stuns me some days, it really does.
1. Computers for Africa. Guess what? They don't NEED computers! Computers require infrastructure, they require resources and if we're honest what the fuck are they going to do with them?
2. Sports equipment for Africa. Nope, if a community is so grindingly poor that they can't afford sports equipment then there are better things you could be buying them.
3. Schools for Africa. Look, let's be honest here. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a fairly low tech agricultural community. There's a whole bunch of shit that we learn in the west that an African in a very poor community doesn't need to know. Conversely there's a few things we view as quaint that would be of very great interest to him; sustainable farming techniques and mechanical seed drills for example.
4. Shoes for Africans. As distasteful as some people may find it a good proportion of the world's population survives perfectly happily barefoot. We didn't evolve with shoes there so we can cope.
In short, if you want to really help you need to help with:
. food
. water
. basic power
. shelter
as far as I'm concerned, unless you're helping in a way the poor sods'll find actually useful then you've got no right to complain that I'm not helping.
Simple answer: Moneymichael87cn said:I wanted to expand upon my original post. Think about this for a minute; how many trees are there in your average city? Quite a few aren't there? What if those were fruit trees? Why doesn't the government ever plant fruit trees? Why not replace all of the standard trees with fruit trees? Why can't fruit trees be public accessible? Sure would help feed the homeless if everywhere you looked, you saw food available, from nature.
Just some food for thought.
Sorry to say this but that made my day.Ganthrinor said:My mother told me that once.
I gave her a stamp and a box.
I was beaten.
From then on it was "Eat your damn food or you can starve". That worked better than the guilt trip.
Actually, living here, you notice that change is happening.this isnt my name said:Africa was fucked up long before I was born, it will be long after my death. Enjoy thinking you will make a difference, but you wont.DSQ said:That is sad because it is so untrue.this isnt my name said:I stopped caring. Sorry they have starved for years, everyone donates millions, nothing changes.
I accept that it will never change, so I just stopped caring. No guilt, nothing.
This.this isnt my name said:Africa was fucked up long before I was born, it will be long after my death. Enjoy thinking you will make a difference, but you wont.
Give a shoeboxBoris Goodenough said:I only give donations to Doctors Without Borders, giving money to the other orginisations just fuels corruption and wars, only about 5% ever actually gets the destination where it was supposed to go.
Operation Christmas Child [http://www.samaritanspurse.org/index.php/OCC/]
Every year in the fall Samaritan's Purse calls out to churches around the world for shoe boxes full of small presents: Barbie, gum, drawing paper, MOTHERFUCKING SHOES, legos, a yo-yo... little things like that. They then pack them up and ship them by the millions to the developing world. Yes its a Christian thing. Yes I'm sure people will call me out for being religious and trying to indoctrinate kids... but if you look at the kids who get one of these gifts, a kid who's never know what a present is... then you'll see why they do it.
My dad used to say it to me when I wouldn't finish my food, although he wouldn't mention Africa specifically. Given that he grew up in Berlin during and after WWII and actually was one of those starving children (although not in Africa but then Germany did invade north Africa for a while so maybe that counts), it wasn't just hyperbole, it was a pretty close to home issue for him. For me at the time it just meant my dad was freaking the shit out of me with his table-thumping and yelling. Glad those days are long gone, not sure how the Africans are going though but as far as I know dad didn't send them any of my unfinished meals, or even donate to World Vision. Hypocrite, hey.Belated said:How many times have you gotten this response?
Come on, the UK is urbanized and has plentiful water, moisturizer and socks. Not exactly the same ground as Africa. And I guess you missed my point about the warlords recruiting child soldiers. When you say "burn up energy," I presume you mean body and not fuel. I don't think aerobic exercise is going to hurt Africans.Generic Gamer said:I actually know a guy who walks around barefoot all the time in the UK (weren't expecting that were you?) and he's absolutely fine, no 'cracked and bleeding' feet there because the soles harden up if you walk around without shoes. Human beings do not need shoes, simple as. You supply shoes, you need cobblers, shoelaces, shipping containers and more money for fuck all real benefit. The areas of Africa that need our aid don't need shoes, they need food and clean water. Fuck, worst comes to worst they can even knock up a shelter perfectly fine without help!funguy2121 said:2. Sports Equipment. Again, assuming they aren't sophisticated enough to "get" PS3, what are they gonna do when they're bored? Play soccer, or start doing smalltime stuff for the local warlord? And it's not like soccer balls and baseball bats are expensive. But once they go pro, juicing is gonna prove costly, so I see your point
3. No, they certainly don't need education at all! When we give them birth control, they can keep on wearing it around their necks like mystic charms. See also 2. Perhaps, as happens in absolutely every other community on earth, where there is better, more sophisticated education, there will be less crime?
4. Yes, let them live like barbarians. I'm sure the children enjoy coming home with cracked, bleeding feet. Tell you what: YOU give up shoes for the rest of your life and I'll cede your point.
And no one's complaining that you're not helping. Most people are either too useless to help or can't really do much at the present because they're barely keeping their own crap together as the global economy takes a nosedive. Try being a little more compassionate, not all of us think they're all cavemen over there.
As for sporting equipment...of all the things you could be shipping over to areas rife with famine you choose the things that help them burn more energy? There's not an obesity crisis where we're talking about in Africa, they'd be perfectly healthy without sporting goods because agricultural life is hard work. It's hard even here and we make uncle Owen's moisture farm look decidedly Luddite. And whilst I assume the PS3 thing was a joke, you've got to factor in hardware repairs, power supply and games. I mean, come on, we're providing biofuel generators that run off chicken crap (an excellent idea btw) so what suggests they've even got the surplus electricity to waste on one of those?
Education I think should be more practical and skill-based if it's to be useful, things like farming techniques, mechanical repairs, medicine and sanitation are far more useful than the 'western education' they receive because that does fuck all for their core problems. It also encourages people to move away from the rural areas in search of jobs...well if Africa is going to stand on it's own it needs farmers!
This isn't a case of 'hur hur, Africans are dumber than my people' thing, this is a 'what can their society physically support in terms of uplift' thing. We're providing them with shit they plain don't need, we're attempting to get them to stand on their own by constructing their infrastructure from the top down. Anything else than a structured and realistic approach to what they really need and we simply make them dependant on us to support their lifestyle in a slightly different way. We already made the mistake of trying to Westernise the world once before.
I actually do give to charities, but only those charities that support a sensible solution to a problem. the example I was getting at is that whilst people may use the starving African motivation on you, chances are they're not really helping all that much themselves.
The problem here is one of fundamental misunderstanding. If they don't apply to your life then they aren't true examples. I didn't believe that you were typing with 11 fingers when you posted. I don't recall anyone ever stating that one doesn't have a "moral right" to whine, nor anyone claiming that we do, come to think of it.Belated said:Dude, what part of "(And no, most of the above examples have never happened to me.)" do you not understand? Also, I called them "examples" for a reason. They're just quick ones off the top of my head. And the "severed finger" one certainly wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Now granted the discussion in general is pretty serious, but you're taking my first post too literally.funguy2121 said:Option A. If you feel you are entitled to a "right" to complain, I suppose you could file that under free speech. But I'd see it as a tremendous waste of a right that people fought and died for us to...Belated said:How many times have you gotten this response? It's used to make you feel like a selfish rich brat. It's used to make you eat until you vomit. It's used by patriots who aren't willing to admit that their favorite country needs improvement. It's used to deprive you of your right to your own emotions. And it's the biggest bullshit cop out argument since "Life isn't always fair."
Alright, here's the deal. I'm fully aware that there's a starving child in Africa right now. We all know that. But I don't see him here right now, do you? No? Then quit bringing him up. Just because somebody has it worse, doesn't mean I don't have a right to complain. All it means is that we BOTH have a right to complain, but he just has a much bigger right to complain. That's how I see it. (Examples in the spoiler)
-Yes, there's starving kids in Africa. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm still full and I'm going to puke if you make me cram any more potatoes down my pie-hole. And somehow, I doubt my puke is going to help the Africans out any.
-Yes, there's kids in Africa who've never even seen a computer. But that doesn't change the fact that we still use dial-up.
-Yes, there's kids in Africa who've never played a video game. But that doesn't change the fact that Rumble Roses sucks.
-Yes, there's places in Africa without any kind of education. But that doesn't change the fact that some schools see fit to punish the wrong kids. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.270535-Ridiculous-Victim-finally-stands-up-to-a-bully-and-ends-up-being-handed-a-suspension-VIDEOINCLUDED]
-Yes, there's kids in Africa who will probably die today. But that doesn't change the fact that you just severed my finger.
-Yes, there's places in Africa that don't have hospitals. But those are useless to us if we don't have insurance.
-Yes, there's places in Africa without any kind of law enforcement, but I'm being charged with a sex offense just because I took a piss in public in my yard.
What do you think? Are we all just a bunch of rich jerks unaware of how well we have it? Or am I actually onto something here? Also, post examples of this argument being used on you. (And no, most of the above examples have never happened to me.)
Dammit, I just lost you, didn't I?
I'm confused by the "you just severed my finger" and "sex offense" lines. If your big brother has cut off your finger and you don't have insurance, please understand that there are charity hospitals here (Incidentally, there are ONLY charity hospitals in africa, and most are open-air. But you're not in africa, so you won't have nearly the risk of contracting MRSA, which is as lifelong and sexually communicable as Herpes). And public indecency is not a sex offense, and I would take the position that your neighbors have the right to NOT see your pecker just because you want to pretend you're pissing in Africa.
I am truly sorry that your parents make you eat until you vomit. You may want to call Child Protective Services on them. Too much vomiting and you may do permanent damage to the lining of your upper GI tract.
I believe you said, "...he's not here right now, is he?" (No, because he just died of AIDS/starved to death/was shot in the head by the Junta/was murdered for the diamonds your mother wears around her neck). "Just because some people have it worse" (meaning dead) "doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain." (Recall the Declaration of Independence, all men being endowed with Life, Liberty, and the right to piss and moan until one has no friends left). "Are we all a bunch of rich jerks unaware of how well we have it?" (I don't know, do you own a cell phone? Have you ever wondered how you were going to get to school / work once they repo'd your car?) The answer is, yes. Absolutely.
By the way, I wasn't referring to "rights" as in the ones guaranteed by the Constitution. I meant moral rights. Ones the Constitution may or may not protect, but you should still be able to do freely, and/or things that you don't feel people should blame you for doing. Has nobody ever said the phrase, "Now honey, I understand... you have a right to be upset about this..." to you before? THAT kind of "right". That's the kind I'm talking about. I didn't think I'd need to explain this given the context in which I used the word, but whatever. Guess I'm spelling things out now.
And do you have any idea how bad a "sex offender" record is? It pretty much means you'll never get hired for anything ever again. Not without an angelic amount of generosity from a potential employer, which seldom happens. Whether you think a man should have a right to piss in his own yard or not shouldn't matter. The punishment does not fit the "crime". That'd be like decapitating a man for jaywalking.
Ok first of all... read this, will you? [http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/09/11/us-sex-offender-laws-may-do-more-harm-good]funguy2121 said:The problem here is one of fundamental misunderstanding. If they don't apply to your life then they aren't true examples. I didn't believe that you were typing with 11 fingers when you posted. I don't recall anyone ever stating that one doesn't have a "moral right" to whine, nor anyone claiming that we do, come to think of it.Belated said:Dude, what part of "(And no, most of the above examples have never happened to me.)" do you not understand? Also, I called them "examples" for a reason. They're just quick ones off the top of my head. And the "severed finger" one certainly wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Now granted the discussion in general is pretty serious, but you're taking my first post too literally.funguy2121 said:Option A. If you feel you are entitled to a "right" to complain, I suppose you could file that under free speech. But I'd see it as a tremendous waste of a right that people fought and died for us to...Belated said:How many times have you gotten this response? It's used to make you feel like a selfish rich brat. It's used to make you eat until you vomit. It's used by patriots who aren't willing to admit that their favorite country needs improvement. It's used to deprive you of your right to your own emotions. And it's the biggest bullshit cop out argument since "Life isn't always fair."
Alright, here's the deal. I'm fully aware that there's a starving child in Africa right now. We all know that. But I don't see him here right now, do you? No? Then quit bringing him up. Just because somebody has it worse, doesn't mean I don't have a right to complain. All it means is that we BOTH have a right to complain, but he just has a much bigger right to complain. That's how I see it. (Examples in the spoiler)
-Yes, there's starving kids in Africa. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm still full and I'm going to puke if you make me cram any more potatoes down my pie-hole. And somehow, I doubt my puke is going to help the Africans out any.
-Yes, there's kids in Africa who've never even seen a computer. But that doesn't change the fact that we still use dial-up.
-Yes, there's kids in Africa who've never played a video game. But that doesn't change the fact that Rumble Roses sucks.
-Yes, there's places in Africa without any kind of education. But that doesn't change the fact that some schools see fit to punish the wrong kids. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.270535-Ridiculous-Victim-finally-stands-up-to-a-bully-and-ends-up-being-handed-a-suspension-VIDEOINCLUDED]
-Yes, there's kids in Africa who will probably die today. But that doesn't change the fact that you just severed my finger.
-Yes, there's places in Africa that don't have hospitals. But those are useless to us if we don't have insurance.
-Yes, there's places in Africa without any kind of law enforcement, but I'm being charged with a sex offense just because I took a piss in public in my yard.
What do you think? Are we all just a bunch of rich jerks unaware of how well we have it? Or am I actually onto something here? Also, post examples of this argument being used on you. (And no, most of the above examples have never happened to me.)
Dammit, I just lost you, didn't I?
I'm confused by the "you just severed my finger" and "sex offense" lines. If your big brother has cut off your finger and you don't have insurance, please understand that there are charity hospitals here (Incidentally, there are ONLY charity hospitals in africa, and most are open-air. But you're not in africa, so you won't have nearly the risk of contracting MRSA, which is as lifelong and sexually communicable as Herpes). And public indecency is not a sex offense, and I would take the position that your neighbors have the right to NOT see your pecker just because you want to pretend you're pissing in Africa.
I am truly sorry that your parents make you eat until you vomit. You may want to call Child Protective Services on them. Too much vomiting and you may do permanent damage to the lining of your upper GI tract.
I believe you said, "...he's not here right now, is he?" (No, because he just died of AIDS/starved to death/was shot in the head by the Junta/was murdered for the diamonds your mother wears around her neck). "Just because some people have it worse" (meaning dead) "doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain." (Recall the Declaration of Independence, all men being endowed with Life, Liberty, and the right to piss and moan until one has no friends left). "Are we all a bunch of rich jerks unaware of how well we have it?" (I don't know, do you own a cell phone? Have you ever wondered how you were going to get to school / work once they repo'd your car?) The answer is, yes. Absolutely.
By the way, I wasn't referring to "rights" as in the ones guaranteed by the Constitution. I meant moral rights. Ones the Constitution may or may not protect, but you should still be able to do freely, and/or things that you don't feel people should blame you for doing. Has nobody ever said the phrase, "Now honey, I understand... you have a right to be upset about this..." to you before? THAT kind of "right". That's the kind I'm talking about. I didn't think I'd need to explain this given the context in which I used the word, but whatever. Guess I'm spelling things out now.
And do you have any idea how bad a "sex offender" record is? It pretty much means you'll never get hired for anything ever again. Not without an angelic amount of generosity from a potential employer, which seldom happens. Whether you think a man should have a right to piss in his own yard or not shouldn't matter. The punishment does not fit the "crime". That'd be like decapitating a man for jaywalking.
You don't understand what "sex offender" means. It means harming another person. "Sex offender" usually means child molester. Once again, "public indecency" isn't considered a sexual offense. They don't send SVU out after guys who flash people, let alone drunk idiots who piss on the side of a building. You don't even seen to know what the punishment is. Usually the police determine very quickly that the person is intoxicated, and they bring him in like they do all the other people who are intoxicated in public, for the sake of public safety.
Your examples and analogies are over the top with hyperbole and melodrama.
Aside from the joking, my main point is that we are not appreciative enough of how good we have it. Your parents make you eat healthy food. I'm guessing you're at least 15 years old. Don't you have some bigger things to complain about than that?
Also, don't piss in your yard.
Well what do you know? I guess it DOES lead to sex offender status. Looks like I was right. Now I haven't used this phrase in a while, but uh... checkmate. And here's another one [http://www.eagletribune.com/nhnews/x1876416971/Lawmakers-Public-urination-shouldnt-lead-to-sex-offender-status] saying something similar in case you think the first article wasn't accurate.Specifically this part said:Federal law and the laws of all 50 states now require adults and some juveniles convicted of a vast array of crimes that involve sexual conduct to register their addresses and other information with law enforcement agencies. Because registration requirements are overbroad in scope and overlong in duration, there are more than 600,000 registered sex offenders in the US, including individuals convicted of non-violent crimes such as consensual sex between teenagers, prostitution, and public urination, as well as those who committed their only offenses decades ago.
I never said anybody DID say that. (Except for me, saying the second part.) However, from your initial response to my post, you sounded like you thought I was talking about the Constitution. I wasn't. I explained the difference between moral rights and legal ones in order to clear this up, and nothing more.You said:I don't recall anyone ever stating that one doesn't have a "moral right" to whine, nor anyone claiming that we do, come to think of it.
Hey, Einstein here. I went to your link. It's from a watchdog group; very often their findings are accurate, and very often they are inflammatory, sometimes even baseless. I'm surprised that a group called Human Rights Watch is so protective of former sex offenders, since these are the type of people who normally end up molesting kids etc. - the ones who did it before. Not a lot of Americans feel bad that sex offenders have to register and let their new neighbors know when they move in.Belated said:snip