Three Examples of Female Characters Archetypes That Go Unexplored-
- Thread starter Someone Depressing
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(I'm going to assume you were sarcastic...)thaluikhain said:
See, that's what I don't get. Who was it that decided that it's manly to attack people, verbally or physically, for no apparent reason? Why do people think this?
Like, if I saw a girl unprovokedly toss a guy through the air or punch him in the gut (Without context, granted), I'd not label her as manly or masculine or "capable". I'd label her as violent. Being a violent, raging douchebag is not solely a masculine character trait, and I don't understand why people seem to think that it is.
I'd just like a masculine girl to have a little bit more substance than that. I find it a bit unfair to the males too, you know.
I was having a discussion in regards to she-ra, the powerpuff girls and wonderwoman last night......
So it started by having to 'vet' a show (winx club) that someone had suggested to my daughter ( it took the intro for it to be canned...), then I searched out the powerpuff girls ( discovering powerpuff girls z, 'canned' too ). So to end on a high note out comes she-ra ( a firm family favourite).
And of course ( being married to a feminist ) we get onto the objectification discussion.....
But here is the thing, ( and this probably applies to Bayonetta too I'd guess), sure She-ra is objectified, her body is an unobtainable ideal, I grant you that, but so is he-man. Objectification in and of itself is darn hard to avoid. BUT She-ra is a female power fantasy, not objectified as a 'sex object'. argument done, it's kinda hard to argue with that. The original powerpuff girls still rock though, darn near perfect as a show, I only wish it were on amazon prime.
As an aside, My wife watched a show on youtube, of men trying to figure out make-up. It struck me that if we had a funny video of women being clueless about something 'male' ( I'm actually struggling to think of something that is 'only' a man-thing - any ideas? ), say putting a motorbike engine together... wouldn't that be considered sexist and offensive? ( she didn't like that comment ).
Ok I'm not doing Wonder woman ( not here), (whoa-)man that is one can of worms right there, it's simply amazing how she can at once be a feminist ideal and be the epitome of sexualised objectification...
So it started by having to 'vet' a show (winx club) that someone had suggested to my daughter ( it took the intro for it to be canned...), then I searched out the powerpuff girls ( discovering powerpuff girls z, 'canned' too ). So to end on a high note out comes she-ra ( a firm family favourite).
And of course ( being married to a feminist ) we get onto the objectification discussion.....
But here is the thing, ( and this probably applies to Bayonetta too I'd guess), sure She-ra is objectified, her body is an unobtainable ideal, I grant you that, but so is he-man. Objectification in and of itself is darn hard to avoid. BUT She-ra is a female power fantasy, not objectified as a 'sex object'. argument done, it's kinda hard to argue with that. The original powerpuff girls still rock though, darn near perfect as a show, I only wish it were on amazon prime.
As an aside, My wife watched a show on youtube, of men trying to figure out make-up. It struck me that if we had a funny video of women being clueless about something 'male' ( I'm actually struggling to think of something that is 'only' a man-thing - any ideas? ), say putting a motorbike engine together... wouldn't that be considered sexist and offensive? ( she didn't like that comment ).
Ok I'm not doing Wonder woman ( not here), (whoa-)man that is one can of worms right there, it's simply amazing how she can at once be a feminist ideal and be the epitome of sexualised objectification...
Been a big part of our culture for hundreds of years. Look at half of any junkie action movie from the 80s, or Greek legend from the 8th century BC.Twintix said:
Definitely. Especially when she's up against authority figures or whoever who don't respect her, and it's supposedly unfair. If you act like that, you shouldn't be respected.Twintix said:
I read a decent article about the overly aggressive female character, specifically in Urban Fantasy though:
http://www.fangsforthefantasy.com/2014/02/urban-fantasy-good-girls-bad-girls-and.html
I've been playing Shadow of Mordor recently, and while it's enjoyable, I can't help feel that the game would have been better with a female protagonist. Or at least something less generic. Talion is kind of dull. A grizzled looking 40 something dude with brown hair and the tragic loss of family. Would have been cool to see a woman getting revenge for her dead husband and son, instead of the usual trope. So I just play with the Lithariel skin and pretend.
I know, but...I still find it a bit hard to digest, honestly. There are plenty of manly men who don't roundhouse kick someone for greeting them the wrong way. Just...why do people think that "capable" translates to "This guy made me stub my toe, so I broke his sternum"?thaluikhain said:
Cheers for the link! It was certainly an interesting read, and while I didn't agree with all of it, it did describe one of the reasons why the "Asshole Tomboy" trope bothers me so much.thaluikhain said:
And she can down a drink like a boss. When I crew my spaceship (I've got that pencilled into my agenda for 2020), I know who I want in my med bay, and it ain't Beverly Crusher.Lilani said:
In the same vein: Wynne from DA:O. For starters, it's nice and too rare to see an older female actually be a companion and not an exposition machine at a waypoint. At first, I thought - like Alastair did - that she was a nice, school-marmy type lady. Then she gets into some of her past history. I could just picture the look on Alastair's face
"I don't think you're a nice old grandma anymore." "That's good, dear." (Or something along that line, can't remember the exact wording)Cassandra's great, as mentioned by others. I also like Sera. Somebody gave me a bullet point on Sera before I played the game - elf, waif, rogue, lesbian. My cynisism - actually, call it realistic expectations - conjured up a petite, impossibly pretty snarky-on-the-outside-but-really-deeply-wounded-inside-please-heal-her character (EDIT: on reflection, removing next bit of the sentence- needlessly inflamatory and undoubtedly applies to only a small portion of players). Instead, we get someone who cuts her hair with a knife and no mirror, who's stopped a few punches with her face, who's quite open about both her politics, opinions, strengths and weaknesses, and who took a swing at my Inquisitor for very good 'shite magic' related reasons midway through the game. Her looks, speech patterns, viewpoint and behaviour match up to what her past is, and that's exactly how it should be. Good job, Bioware. She is a fantastic character, and one of my favorites.
I also like how her preference isn't brought up during your very first conversations with her - or at all unless you flirt with her. When it's so normal you don't need to wave a flag about it or explain it, THAT'S when diversity is done right. It's something every medium is still struggling with (along with diversity itself, natch).
Another character I thought I wouldn't like because she'd be eye candy and nothing more was Isabella from DA2. She's not my favorite woman in the game - that's Aveline, who's great for the same reasons Cassandra is - but I really loved how she could have easily been the Slut cliché, but the writers took pains to develop her a bit better than that if you dig even slightly. Some of the conversations between Aveline and herself are illuminating that way. This post is already too long or I'd elaborate.
All my examples come from Bioware. I am completely and utterly not surprised.
Oh god, yeah, the famous Tsundere. Not only applicable to girls, mind you, they build male characters like that too and it's just as ridiculous in its extreme. The only thing standing between these nutters and an assault rap is cartoon logic where being hit with a two-by-four makes a 'whack' sound followed by a comical lump on the head.Twintix said:
But I'll take the straight-up Tsundere over some examples I've seen of anime trying to give the Tsundere a story arc and feminine qualities. That's when she's really, really tough on the outside for the first few episodes, but when the (male) lead scratches a bit, he finds that underneath that hard exterior she's just a deeply wounded girl searching for love and comfort and then she crumbles like a cookie in his big strong arms now where did my barf bag go...See Caska from Berserk, IMO (personal opinion, fans of the character, please let me live).
Just once have I seen this type of character done well: Revy in Black Lagoon. At first I thought she was typical Tsundere. Then her character develops, you hear about her tragic past...which is brought up only to show how much that does NOT hold her back or hurt her anymore. She thinks with her weapons and fists because that's what life's taugth her and because she LOVES it. At this point you realize that this woman is a total and utter nutcase, and the anime actually aknowledges this; in fact it takes some pains to show that shooting first is not really an admirable trait - at least once it's shown as completely counterproductive. But she does it so brutally and joyfully that you kind of roll with it. In the end, the character makes sense (within the loony confines of anime), and though I wouldn't want to meet Revy in a dark alley, or even a well-lit one for that matter, I found she was an important and enjoyable part of the story.
It can be rather difficult. I've tried doing it myself in some of the fiction I've written. The act of learning is basically taking what you've experienced and applying it to something else, so everything you know and think tends to somehow come from something that has happened before in your life. As a result, when creating a new character, using and not using archetypes often depends on whether you draw inspiration from your life or from other media you've watched.Hubblignush said:
Miyazaki had complained that there are far too many otaku in the anime business. If he's right, then perhaps the problem is that the writers of some anime just don't get out often enough, and instead draw inspiration from the anime they watched as kids.
Going along with what Someone Depressing said, Rose actually fits the normal girl thrust into a bad situation pretty well, as do a lot of the female characters in Homestuck. The most obvious legitimate character flaw outside of being surly or angry that comes to mind is Roxy Lalonde (an alternate reality version of Rose's mother, to keep things simple and easy to undersand) and her alcoholism. She's a crack shot and an amazing hacker, and one of the most legitimately nice people in the entire series, but struggles with addiction due to her upbringing. Hell, teenagers, teenage girls especially, struggling with alcoholism is something that's rarely explored in fiction, due to our tendency to associate substance abuse in teenagers with stuff like heroin, ecstasy, or tobacco. Andrew Hussie does a really good job at writing female characters in general and I just realized how depressing it is that stuff like that is considered impressive.Vault101 said:
Eh...just switching genders wouldn't make the protagonist any less generic. There's plenty of bland action girls out there already.Dead Century said:
Motherhood. And not weird, twisted, Other M/Alien, esque mother hood. Actual motherhood. Someone suggested far back in the day that a fallout game where you have to care for two children as a wasteland survivor, age 15 and 8 would be awesome. The 15 year old would actively be of assistance, but naturally as a parent you cant demand too much work (or violence) from a 15 year old and the 8 year old would be of limited assistance in every day work. The game SHOULDNT punish you overtly for losing the kids or making mistakes that allow the children to die except in the reaction of the mother. You have a rifle and have to move from A to B, just you and the kids. If someone could write them like Clem then maybe people would actually give a fuck and losing them would be difficult, situations would demand you balance responsibility as a parent with survival, your main objectives and other people.
Lee from walking dead did a great foster father role, people fucking loved it. A motherhood one would be rad!
Basically a mother as a protagonist. A LOT of people had a mother, its a very common relationship with another person that for some reason is never really explored interestingly. Either as the mother or the child.
Lee from walking dead did a great foster father role, people fucking loved it. A motherhood one would be rad!
Basically a mother as a protagonist. A LOT of people had a mother, its a very common relationship with another person that for some reason is never really explored interestingly. Either as the mother or the child.
That was an interesting take I never considered before, I like this.Lilani said:
Thats the thing though, female characters tend to have a "thing" about them. A primary trait or conflict that utterly defines them that leaves little room for nuance. Dr Chakwas was actually a very normal woman with an actual sensible story with no extremely obvious single "THIS CHARACTER IS X" elements and still ended up being an interesting and noteworthy member of the crew.
She really reminds me of my immunology professor. I really like her as well, I chose her as my summer scholarship tutor.
lucky_sharm said:
I'm going to throw my hat in with Mabel from Gravity Falls. She is one of two main characters, the other being her twin brother (as opposed to her love interest). She very much has an active interest in guys and is certainly not the primary love interest of a another more important character[footnote]Unless of course you want to say Gideon is more important, which he's not and the relationship is very one sided.[/footnote]. She tries to flirt but fails miserably at it, but is still extremely charming in her own right.
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The webcomic Gunnerkrigg Court [http://gunnerkrigg.com/] also has some very well written female characters and I also like pretty much all of the female characters in Steven Universe (including Connie).