Tolkien, Overrated?

[Veylon]

Part of Tolkien's problem is that he's been so extensively copied. Virtually every high fantasy since has been influenced by, if not out-and-out plagiarized Tolkien. Anytime you see an Elf holding a bow, a bearded Dwarf swinging an ax, or an ugly Orc, you see Tolkien.

What's interesting is what's not in the Lord of the Rings. No grand prophecy, no destinies, no secretive mentors, no showdown duels. Everyone makes their own plans and decisions without any hand-holding by a higher power. All the relevant facts are laid out halfway through the first book and the characters have to figure out what to do with them from there.

Ulimately, what makes Tolkien overrated, if anything, is the writing style. Tolkien loves his descriptive prose too much for most people and it doesn't help that so much of it seems written in strange backward sentences or that so often they are in passive tense. There is also an unseemly amount of dialogue and monologue when compared to more recent novels.

 

[beniki]

The thing about Tolkien's books is that alot of them are written like a historical record (what with Tolkien have been a History professor)rather that a narrative. This makes parts of his books a real struggle for some people (myself included) to get through.

Yeah, he did write it as a historical record. His passion was ancient languages, and The Lord of the Rings was written purely to provide a place to show off his elvish creation. That's why it's so dry sometimes.

The Hobbit is good though, as it was actually written as a story.

 

[TheSEPH88]

I would agree that Tolkiens concept on how a fantasy world is overused but I can't agree on overrated.

 

[Korolev]

Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit were great! Awesome! Enjoyed them when I was 10, still enjoy them at 23.

Unfinished tales, Silmarillion? Not so great. His actual stories were good, his "mythological tomes" and "histories" were snoozefests of the highest order. Even Gravity's Rainbow was a tad bit more readable (but not more comprehensible).

 

[RedDeadFred]

+1 internets to the first person who says what his biggest literary influence was.

(..and no googling )

I think I heard that the bible was a big influence. I wouldn't be able to tell though because I've never read it.

 

[RatheMcGrath]

You may as well ask if the Illiad and the Odyssey are overrated.

Whether you like Tolkien or not is one thing, but its place in modern fantasy is unquestioned.

Rational response aside, I hereby confiscate all of your geek points. You are returned to normal dude status. Don't make me do this again.

 

[Xrysthos]

I can agree with Tolkien's work being different from a lot of modern fantasy, but you need to keep in mind that this was groundbreaking stuff at the time he was written. As people have already mentioned, Tolkien is considered the forefather of modern fantasy, and while some descriptions of ruins might be a bit long winded, it is still first class literature. You have to remember that where modern fantasy writers draw on Tolkien's work for inspiration, Tolkien used myths and legends to create his world. The time period in which it was written, and the audience it was meant for at the time would also explain the lack of sexual encounters, gory violoence and other things that might spice up a modern fantasy novel.

I personally like all of his work, including the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, but my favourite fantasy series is probably a tie between The Malazan Book of the Fallen and A Song of Ice and Fire. The only aspect of Tolien's work I don't fully appreciate is the implementation of songs/lyrics. I don't mind a few lyrics in my books, but there is a limit to my interest

 

[RatheMcGrath]

The thing about Tolkien's books is that alot of them are written like a historical record (what with Tolkien have been a History professor)rather that a narrative. This makes parts of his books a real struggle for some people (myself included) to get through.

Yeah, he did write it as a historical record. His passion was ancient languages, and The Lord of the Rings was written purely to provide a place to show off his elvish creation. That's why it's so dry sometimes.

The Hobbit is good though, as it was actually written as a story.

Actually, what you are talking about is the Silmarillion. The Lord of the Rings was written as a sequel to the Hobbit, and had its own storyline as well.

 

[Nouw]

We all have our dislikes, but you still should acknowledge major figures. Tolkien was practically the father of modern fantasy stories, just like how Shakespeare was for theatre or Freud was for psychology. You may think their works are crap, but you can't deny their influence.

Ooooo /thread.

Without Tolkien, we'd have no elves at all! And maybe even less!

Elves? Yes but they would all be Santa style elves. Though we wouldn't have orcs because those were pure Tolkien.

Say goodbye to Warhammer 40,000 I guess!

 

[kouriichi]

Yes, its the foundation of all modern fantasy.
Yes, its some of the best fantasy books of all time.
Yes, he has probably made more money then Bill Gates, George Bush, Ricky Bobby, and Mr. T combined.

But it is a tiny bit overrated. Its like D&D. I love it to death, the miniatures are beyond epic, its the foundation for almost every RPG today, and its a truely awesome party game to play when friends are over.

But.... when it comes down to it.... its still only a bunch of basement dwellers, gathered around a table in geeky outfits rolling dice and acting out childish fantasys. ((Nothing more id rather do on a weekend mind you.))

Its overrated, yet it doesnt get the recognition it deserves. Without it, RPGs would still be years behind where they are now. Much how literature, film and fantasy would be years behind without Tolkien.

Overrated? Maybe alittle, but not like most things these days. ((Halo, MAG, Sexual Intercourse, ect.))

 

[Mr C]

To deny his influence would be absurd, but the quality of his writing is questionable. He is great at creating worlds and language but not at creating a well paced narrative to go on inside that world.

I enjoyed LOTR, but some sections were irrelevant and added nothing to the story.

There is never a sense of genuine danger either, never a doubt the heroes could fail. The only exceptions are the death of Boromir and the 'death' of Gandalf, but other than those examples the good guys always win easily. The mighty Urukai fall in huge numbers everytime Aragorn so much as farts. The Nazgul also get my scorn for being a massive limp dick in every section they are in, they couldn't even kill a bloody hobbit lying on his back.

LOTR is like 2001: A Space Oddysey, a great product of it's time that has been bested by others influenced by the innovation it dared.

Personally I like The Wheel of Time more than LOTR. Check if out if you haven't, though some think it also suffers some long-windedness.

 

[GrimTuesday]

I personally like all of his work, including the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, but my favourite fantasy series is probably a tie between The Malazan Book of the Fallen and A Song of Ice and Fire. The only aspect of Tolien's work I don't fully appreciate is the implementation of songs/lyrics. I don't mind a few lyrics in my books, but there is a limit to my interest

You mean you don't want to know all the words to The Bear and the Maiden Fair or The Reynes of Castamere?

 

[Lem0nade Inlay]

I agree that it can get just a tincy bit bland at times, I mean when you don't want to hear of his endless descriptions and you just want to get through the story.

However, I feel that he is still a fantastic storyteller. When that is combined with his epic stories, a magical book is created.

 

[ComicsAreWeird]

Someone needs to read A Game of Thrones. That book and it's sequels will ruin most fantasy for you it's written so well. That and it will kill your optimism when reading fantasy books, George RR Martin is not afraid to piss off his readers by killing favorite characters.

THIS. George R.R. Martin writes fantasy like no other.

Tolkien isnt overrated, since he practically created fantasy as we know it today. He might be a dit dry however.

 

[beniki]

The thing about Tolkien's books is that alot of them are written like a historical record (what with Tolkien have been a History professor)rather that a narrative. This makes parts of his books a real struggle for some people (myself included) to get through.

Yeah, he did write it as a historical record. His passion was ancient languages, and The Lord of the Rings was written purely to provide a place to show off his elvish creation. That's why it's so dry sometimes.

The Hobbit is good though, as it was actually written as a story.

Actually, what you are talking about is the Silmarillion. The Lord of the Rings was written as a sequel to the Hobbit, and had its own storyline as well.

Ah, my mistake. I blame a misunderstood documentary I watched as a child.

 

[Broderick]

Im not sure about over rated, but he did influence the fantasy genre in just about every way possible. Tree people, tolkien. Giant spiders, tolkien. Elves being nature lovers and rangers, tolkien. Dwarves having scottish acsents and the beards they sport, tolkien. There are other examples but I wont get into them but I do agree that he does get into too much detail. "There they passed the hill in the evening, with the sun just right behind it. The trees on the hill swayed back and forth as if to say hello and goodbye to the travelers, and there was a tiny catapiller on the leaf, slowely munching away in hopes to-" I DONT GIVE A CRAP! GET ON WITH THE STORY, GAH! (of course the quote isnt from the books, its just a slight example on a bit how he goes into too much detail).

Love the books, but the over explanation kind of made it a bit harder to read than most books, but hey, with a world like middle earth, maybe you need all the details.

 

[The Stonker]

We all have our dislikes, but you still should acknowledge major figures. Tolkien was practically the father of modern fantasy stories, just like how Shakespeare was for theatre or Freud was for psychology. You may think their works are crap, but you can't deny their influence.

Ooooo /thread.

Without Tolkien, we'd have no elves at all! And maybe even less!

And is that a good thing? trolololo.

But on the Tolkien matter, I think techniclly that he gave us D&D...and I think everyone loves D&D.
Of course D&D has evolved alot but D&D always takes things from LOTR....

 

[Safaia]

Personally he's kind of like C.S Lewis in that their styles are very hit or miss. I love Tolkien and Lewis for that matter but I can see how their styles can be hard to get through. I didn't like either until I got older.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

As you acknowledge, he was influential as hell. However, his work is dry and hard to get into (it took me a couple years to finish Return of the King. The Hobbit was awesome though).

 

[v3n0mat3]

*Ducks and covers to avoid the oncoming shitstorm*

Love Tolkien. He's the father of Modern fantasy. We wouldn't have HALF the fantasy-related movies/games/books as we have now. Yeah, he's overly-descriptive at times. But, to me, I LOVE that. I hate half-assed descriptions that don't amount to anything. I want to feel like I'm in a room full of Dwarves. Not think it. It makes all the difference to me. You may not like it, and that's fine. I don't expect everybody to like that kind of thing.