Tomb Raider writer expressed an interest in making Lara gay?

[M920CAIN]

This thread is very naughty. Naughty, naughty, naughty. By the comments posted here, I can tell I'm not the only one looking at Lara's ass-ets when I play. You funny internet people you.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

I hate to come off as contrary for the sake of being contrary, but that IS the reality. If one doesn't understand the reality one operates in, how can one change it?

Maybe it's philosophical semantics, but I think that the most effective activists are those who recognize, "This is the reality. This other approach is the way it should be. And I will do what I can to make the way it should be the new reality."

I'm saying that there's a difference between a character actually being more sexualized and that people may perceive a character as being more sexualized.

EDIT: And not letting that perception control one's writing.

If one writes with no regard for how one's audience perceives it, one's message will probably be lost.

That's such a pointless argument for this; "other people will see it as sexualized so you have to make it sexualized." Why can't the writers just write her as gay, using a line or two about a girlfriend or how she's attracted to someone (it doesn't have to be Sam), and then let the community take it as is?

Certainly the audience should influence one's writing, but a writer should also try to influence their audience, and making her being gay not a big deal is a good way to show that being gay shouldn't be someone's defining characteristic. Making it some huge thing just because the community is just reinforces that stupid idea and isn't something someone should be doing.

I'm not arguing for that. I'm arguing against the idea a person's writing is completely independent of audience perception. Can a writer write whatever they want for no regard to how people will receive it? Certainly they can, but they're probably unlikely to find the audience that they want, and if the writer is trying to relay a message or challenge the way people think, how is that going to happen if the audience is shut out?

There is a middle ground between ignoring audience perception and catering to it, and if one wants their writing to reach people, there's where a writer needs to be. That's all I'm saying.

So tell me how the writers making Lara's hypothetical homosexuality not a big deal in the game, and making it just another part of her character that gets about as much attention as her current heterosexuality (obviously you'll have to throw some extra detail in as hetero is the default assumption), would somehow shut the audience out. I can see the homophobes and those die hard fans of the straight Lara not liking it, but not making her homosexuality into just fanservice or the most important thing about her shouldn't shut someone out.

I was talking about "shutting the audience out" in regard to my initial point: "If one writes with no regard for how one's audience perceives it, one's message will probably be lost."

I'm talking about literary theory in general, not so much as it pertains to this topic.

And I can tell that you're pretty defensive and "in your face" about this whole thing, so I presently don't desire any further discourse with you.

 

[m19]

How about just leave it the hell be and not change any character straight/bi/gay/whatever. Make a new one and don't use existing ones to push whatever at the expense of people who like it as is. How about just not screw with this stuff.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

I was talking about "shutting the audience out" in regard to my initial point: "If one writes with no regard for how one's audience perceives it, one's message will probably be lost."

I'm talking about literary theory in general, not so much as it pertains to this topic.

And I can tell that you're pretty defensive and "in your face" about this whole thing, so I presently don't desire any further discourse with you.

Considering the point of this topic is about making a character homosexual, discussing the theory on its own is pointless. If you didn't want your literary theory to be applied to the present topic so much that you won't even discuss it, don't bring it up outside of conversations that strictly revolve around literary theory.

Considering the original comment that brought us to this place was a reply to JediMB, and then you were the one who jumped on my case, am I really the one who unnecessarily interjected in this instance?

Don't feel compelled to reply. It's a rhetorical question.

 

[ItsNotRudy]

Call me when you make a male gay protagonist. Yeah, that's never gonna happen.

-calls-

Slightly NSFW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMpULYa6l00

Lol really?

Obviously ME or DA:O do not count. I'm not talking of any game where you create your own character.

You choose a path, you don't create it. It's been written out before hand.

 

[Darken12]

The thing is straight female protagonists are as much, if not more, of a minority than lesbian ones. I think I would feel really really deprived as a straight female gamer if she was made to be gay.

Frankly I think representation in video games goes Straight guy, lesbian, straight women, gay guy.

There are so many games where the female character can have a relationship or flirt with female npcs just on the basis that they didn't change the dialogue from a male. In those games the men almost always treat you like you fell out the ugly tree. That's not even counting actual lesbian characters.

How many games can you list where a straight female protagonist has an on screen relationship with a male outside Bioware games (where again there is almost always less choice for straight women). I don't think I can think of any...maybe Jennifer out of Primal? Obscure ps1 game :S and even then you just see her bf briefly at the end.

I definitely get your point, but if you consider "lesbian" as "actual realistic portrayal of a lesbian that isn't there to titillate straight males" you will see that straight women have it WAY better than real-life lesbians.

But I do agree that we need more female characters period, be they straight, gay or any other sexuality.

You're not a writer are you? Well I am, and I can tell you that there is a natural flow to the storytelling process. Inserting a personal view/goal/agenda when it doesn't naturally fit into the overall story makes for a contrived inclusion. It IS a conditional thing that depends on the story, if you want a good story. There's only so much you can do to "make it work" in a good story; you can't just force it because you want to. A good story grows organically out of the author's mind based on the natural interaction of character/plot/theme. But now I'm getting into denser literary theory and philosophy and there are many other writers out there who wouldn't even agree with me because literary theory is not absolute, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I am, in fact, a writer. You write what you want to write, and I loathe writers who wash their hands off the content they write. The story doesn't write itself. You are not a hapless victim of the story. You decide what happens, how it happens, when it happens and where it happens. Your job as a writer is to determine all these things and your skill is determined by how well you sell them. If you are constrained by what your mind considers "organic", and if you must be a slave to what you think your audience will accept as plausible, then you either have no confidence in your skills, or you're just plain not skilled enough.

But I suppose you're right; we will have to agree to disagree.

"Man", "woman", and "straight" are identities that have been socially accepted for so long that the audience demands no explanation or extrapolation. Gender and sexual identities outside of those have not reached that level of common acceptance, therefore the audience expects some level of extrapolation.

This is not an excuse. We are people, not subplots. We do not exist solely for your entertainment. We are not your sassy stylists, your hot sexual fantasies, your tearful tales of struggle against society, your exploration of human sexuality or your uncomfortable villains. We. Are. People.

If you don't reduce straightness to stereotypes and subplots, do not do the same to us.

If Lara, a character with no defined sexuality (in the video games anyway), made her attraction to a man known, that would barely register in the minds of most audience members because that is the social norm. If Lara was written as being attracted to a woman, that WOULD register because it is less socially normalized, and then you have a much more precarious situation on your hands as a storyteller. If the story just said, "she's gay, and were not going to talk about it anymore" the writer runs the risk of making her sexuality come across as token and inconsequential, begging the question in many minds: "Why'd they even bother bringing it up?" On the other hand, if the story devotes a larger amount of attention to it, the writer runs the risk of over-emphasizing it to the point of stealing focus away from the core story (as Tomb Raider is not a story about sexual identity), UNLESS (as I said in my earlier post) the writers REALLY know what they're doing. It's a delicate procedure anytime a writer explores something outside of social norms, especially social norms that can be "hot-button" issues for a lot of people, such as sexual/gender identity.

And if you make everyone straight, you don't have to deal with those uncomfortable topics. You don't have to acknowledge we exist, or how society has treated us (and continues to treat us), the problems we face, or the way the media portrays us. You don't have to take a risk. You don't have to put effort and care into your work. You can just mindlessly rehash the same old cliches and the same old plots because it's easy, comfortable, familiar and safe.

Forgive me if I do not praise an author who does that. I find it hard to find such an attitude admirable in any way.

I can understand why this is frustrating to the LGBT+ community, but it is fact: until alternate sexual/gender identities are as mainstream as man/woman/straight are, those identities will be subject to further scrutiny, and that includes within storytelling.

You do not have to include us in your works, but at least have the decency to admit you're a lazy and non-confrontational. Saying that "it's out of your hands" and how oh so terrible it is that your hands are tied is the exact same kind of bullshit we hear from politicians and the people who are supposed to represent us.

Nobody is forcing you to take risks you don't want to take, but at least have the fucking human decency not to bullshit us to our faces. At least have the common courtesy to admit that you don't want to take the risk (or endorse an author taking the risk). You are not going to be publicly beheaded for writing LGBT+ characters. The worst thing that can happen is that you might take some extra criticism and/or make less money. If you aren't willing to do that, that's fine. But don't paint yourself as a poor victim that has no choice.

 

[TallanKhan]

I don't have any strong feelings about Lara's sexuality either way, but i have to admit one of the things i liked about the TR franchise was the lack of romantic subplots and other rubbish that got in the way. Don't get me wrong I enjoy story and dialogue, but TR isn't one of the games that need it. Its a simple fun formula, Lara wants treasure, steals treasure, kills bad guys and solves puzzles. All other plot points are just overarching goals and motivations that stay out of the way for the most part and just serve to add a little atmosphere and depth. Romance is too intrusive for that, look at Uncharted, how much more fun would those games have been if Nathan Drake hadn't had to stop every ten minutes to check on his needy 2D love interest?

 

[Nieroshai]

Groan. I would hate it because it seems like a trope that there can't be any straight tough women.
I think I would be really annoyed.
It would feel like they were taking away the one relate-able female protagonist ><
If she made her gay I wouldn't kick up a fuss but I really hope she doesn't.
By making her gay I can't help but feel it would just be pandering to the guys again...

This.
"She's tough because she's basically a man with tits!" It's an assumption of pure misogyny, but think about it: in the eyes of many, it would take away one of her defining traits: her unattainability. By naming her sexuality, you give her a love interest. By giving her a love interest, you change her whole dynamic purely as an explorer and adventurer, and relegate her to the role of rescuer or else focus the plot on her "getting the girl." Also, I hate anything that makes fanfictions come true.

 

[axlryder]

based on gut reaction, I don't think it would have been a good move. It would have felt shoehorned in imo. The story clearly had its focus (and it didn't even do that particularly well). Making her gay would have just added an unnecessary layer that might have easily come off as liberal pandering, male libido pandering or just tacked on. That's not to say I don't think it could have worked, but I don't think the execution would have been there. Plus, in the end, it would have undoubtedly pissed SOMEBODY off (not that pissing people off should be a deterrent in and of itself).

 

[airrazor7]

What is it with people and seeing any affection as automatically sexual/romantic? Lara and Sam don't act any different than multitudes of modern girl friends I've seen.

I don't normally do this but: This, a google times this!

Why is it when people of similar gender in fiction show concern for each other, they are suddenly pegged as being gay? Hetero folks can't show concern for and fight for each other?

I'm all for a strong homosexual protagonist if done well. By done well I mean by not reminding players in every cutscene, "look at me I'm so totally tough and gay. Suck it!" Also, do it by leaving established characters alone. If anything, a homosexual protagonist would be great new ground breaking material for a new IP. Some people are crying for a strong gay protag and everyone is crying for new IPs. I say make it happen.

Also, to echo another poster, "What's wrong with having a strong heterosexual heroine?" Or a strong heroine who isn't attracted to anyone, for that matter? That's one of the things I liked about Lara. Why fuss over sex and relationships when you can be traveling the world raiding its many tombs?

One last thing: This may or may not be playing devil's advocate, but I'm going to go as far as saying that gender and sexual preferences really do not matter or yet, have not mattered thus far, in the scheme of gaming. It's needless details at best. I may attempt a thread with this as a topic.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Bringing LGBT issues to light is interesting, doing it through a character people are freakishly attached to,oh the shit storm would make the one sorriunding Mass Effect 3 look like a string breeze.

 

[A Distant Star]

Edit: Double posted for some reason. And the first post was all buggery. Why wont you let me delete my posts Escapists?

 

[A Distant Star]

In her origin story she had a fiancée.

She has more then one origin story.

 

[m19]

She has more then one origin story.

Doesn't matter. Why would anyone confuse them more than they already have by throwing straight/gay Laras everywhere. She's only ever been the former without a whiff of the latter anywhere on any platform. Some people may find the idea cool and explain it away by the lack of a line in a game bio somewhere but it's fairly obvious that no one in the series history has ever seen her anything other than straight. The franchise as a whole has already breached the door on her orientation.

 

[A Distant Star]

Have any actual lesbians (or queer people at all) chimed into this conversation? Cause this seems kind of like a tepid circle jerk right now.

So here's the skinny.

I have never played a Tomb Raider game before this newest one. I saw the first movie and hated just about everything about it and glanced through some of the comics but never really cared for them. I have no previous emotional connection to this character. What I am though, is pro-queer feminist and an advocate for diversity in games.

Just tweeted her about it and she got back to me with this.

Rhianna Pratchett &#8207;@rhipratchett 4m
@Bennjoon I was just musing on the subject/topic. The title of the piece was a bit misleading. It wasn't something I set out to do.

Yay.

Disclaimer (I would be upset not because she would lesbian but because Lara is like the single games character I relate too....so yes I'm super selfish )

Well I am glad you are aware of your own selfishness here. Because isn't this an argument that a lesbian gamer could make for why she should be gay?

Groan. I would hate it because it seems like a trope that there can't be any straight tough women.
I think I would be really annoyed.
It would feel like they were taking away the one relate-able female protagonist ><
If she made her gay I wouldn't kick up a fuss but I really hope she doesn't.
By making her gay I can't help but feel it would just be pandering to the guys again...

The first thing you say here is interesting. There is a stereotype for lesbians being tougher then straight women, but when you look at actual representation of strong female characters in video games, (an admittedly small sampling pool) the vast majority of them are straight.

The fact that you feel this would be in some way "taking away" from the character actually speaks to homophobia on your part. Are gay women less deserving of your empathy? Of your ability to relate to them? Isn't this same same trashy worn out line we here from straight white dudes who play games about playing anything other then yet another straight white dude?

In her origin story she had a fiancée.

Depending on which origin story you go with. Also generally irrelevant, this is a reboot. And even if it wasn't a reboot, I can name you a ton of lesbians who where married to dudes for a myriad of reasons. (Either they hadn't figured there shit out, social pressure, exct.)

Oh really. Well i certainly hope that she will be a lesbian in a next game. I am no fan of tomb raider but this would certainly motivate me to at least watch cutscenes on YouTube. Provided that the cutscense would be interesting if you know what i mean

See this? Yeah you... you're part of the problem.

Yeah, I would love to see Lara have a boyfriend mostly because it was stated back in the day they did it deliberately so lads could feel like 'she belonged to them' -.- (not even joking) but ambiguous is fine with me. As then people can have their own head canon.

Admittedly. There is a strong lack of women in established relationships in video games. Straight or gay. This is a problem. They do it to create a sense of sexual availability for the player, effectively pandering to the male gaze, this is an even bigger problem.

I got the vibe that Lara and Sam were just best friends and that Lara felt guilty for bringing the crew to the island and that Sam kept getting kidnapped from right under her nose. Read one of Sam's journals, she says that they met a lot of cute dudes on some mountain or at a club or something so I don't think Sam is gay.

I totally got the feeling Lara had a thing for Sam, although Sam herself was clearly very heterosexual. I did not get that vibe from Faith and Celeste though. Until reading this interview I figured I got that from the damsel in distress motif. In video games, there's an implication (though it is seldom ever shown) of sexual dynamic between the male hero and the female character he is going to rescue. So in a game where it is about a woman rescuing a woman, I was just getting that vibe, because I was in essence trained to get that vibe from heterosexual gaming tropes... but after reading this interview, it would seem that Pratchett may have been actively seeding this dynamic.

Of course there's also the possibility she was seeding it for the same reason I thought I was reading it. Established norms with in the trope.

If so, then the issue of having her be a lesbian is problematic because it reinforces patriarchate values. But is that the reason? Who knows. I have never met Miss Pratchett and I wouldn't speak for her.

What difference would it have made? She's just running around the island shooting people and pillaging little tombs. Whether she fancies ladies or gents really wouldn't have impacted the narrative, it just would've been a character note. The fact everyone is viewing it as annoying or outrageous or edgy indicates either A) you have absolutely no trust in the ability of video game writers to write a gay character without making it a Really Big Deal, or B) we still view gay characters as unicorns and their presence in our stories is automatically a point of contention and controversy. Which is pretty sad. If I were gay and reading this I'd be feeling pretty depressed. With all the guys and girls around here who simply cannot fathom playing a character of the opposite gender because they need to project themselves into the experience, I imagine there's a lot of homosexuals out there wondering when they're going to get that option outside of a Bioware title.

You! I think I like you!

It IS tokenism. We barely have good heterosexual female characters. Making an ICONIC character like Lara Croft gay would be forced. Lara's sexuality is irrelevant. And writing a gay character takes more effort than writing a default heterosexual character or ignoring the issue altogether. Focusing on her sexuality instead of her other more important personality traits would oversexualize the character AGAIN. They already rebooted the series keeping in mind that the old Lara was overly sexualized. They really shouldn't go back to that.

Wow that's pretty ignorant actually. Would be tokenism? Well, maybe, that sort of depends on the writers. But the idea that some how a gay person is harder to write then a straight person is just asinine bordering on insulting. There is absolutely no reason what so ever an iconic character can't be gay? Why shouldn't there be iconic gay characters? Why should all icons pander to the white cis-gendered heterosexual demographic? How about you leave the decision of what would or wouldn't be more difficult to write up to Miss Pratchett as she is the, well you know, writer.

To sit there and say, giving her any sexual side would over sexualized her is also really asinine. Should every character be an asexual machine? Sex is an important part of being human, and when properly handled it can make characters seem more human. This is why it's such a problem that every single female protagonist ever is single. This is not speaking to her gender preference at all, but in the uncharted games they deal with Nathan Drakes love interest pretty heavily through the whole trilogy. Why would giving Lara the same thing be "over sexualized here" regardless of whether her interests are directed towards a man or a woman?

I'm against this.

Lara Croft would not be gay so lesbian players could have a protagonist to identify with. Lara Croft would be gay so that male players could get off on the idea of her making out with another woman. Do not lie to yourself.

This isn't with out merit, though I think Rhianna Pratchett's intents are sincerer. And I mean, if thats why CD OKs it, and miss Pratchett can do something more with is? Well... more power to them.

Sounds legit to me. Lara's sexuality has been permeable at best in the past, so to have her queer in this reboot (note that I think 'gay' is here used as something of a blanket term for anything between homo and bisexual) could be a neat way of evolving the character.

Also, with regards to the people expressing discontent about the alleged lack of "strong straight women" in games, already decrying this as abject tokenism; I believe they need to accept that such a thing as intersectionality exists, and forward strides for women don't somehow have to be taken by heterosexual women first with the queer contingency to follow in their wake at some ill-defined point in the future. Having a gay or bisexual Lara wouldn't negatively impact the concept of straight female leads in the slightest, nor would it negatively impact the character assuming it was handled correctly.

You know, as is the case with any character and their sexuality. Regardless of what that sexuality is.

Can we be friends?

So long as they handle it well and it's a good game I couldn't care less.

This... this here. A million times this!

I imagine there's a lot of homosexuals out there wondering when they're going to get that option outside of a Bioware title.

To be fair there are quite a few gay female characters just based on the fact the devs can't be bothered to change the dialogue from the male default.

I think straight female protagonists are much rarer. (and as Fappy pointed out they are almost never in an actual relationship)

That awkward moment when my femshep was flirting with Tali.

When you look at the sexuality of playable female characters. You are wrong, most are straight. Lazy editing disregarded. You are right about them never being in relationships, but I addressed this earlier. It all goes back to the male gaze, a gay woman isn't sexually available for the presumed male player. So most women end up straight.

It was just nice to have at least one tough female character who was straight. Straight women are as much of a minority when it comes to being catered to in games and now you are asking us to give up Lara.

Avaline (AC:3L)
Samus Aran
Zelda
Alyx Vance
Jade (Beyond Good and Evil)
Trip (Enslaved)
Faith (Mirrors Edge)
Sofia Hendrik (Gears of War: Judgment)

To name a few all straight, most are playable. I didn't want to go any where near the fighting game genre.

This isn't to say straight women are well represented in video games (They aren't - That list would be pages and pages long if I where talking about straight men) only that they are better represented then gay women. The more you talk the more of a professional victim you seem.

I think in Fallout 3 it was more that women were flirty to you and the men treated you like you are chopped liver. Lesbians are pretty well catered to by a side effect of the lazy dev.

You could be right. The writing in that game was so appalling I paid scant attention to it at the best of times. I busied myself crawling around on dusty bluffs and digging in the rubble for stimpacks.

Good times.

Glad to see I am not the only one who felt that way. In many gamer circles it's heresy to speak ill of that game. I could never get very far in it.

 

[m19]

Depending on which origin story you go with. Also generally irrelevant, this is a reboot. And even if it wasn't a reboot, I can name you a ton of lesbians who where married to dudes for a myriad of reasons. (Either they hadn't figured there shit out, social pressure, exct.)

So? I don't get your point. Just because you can make up some convoluted retcon of the character is not a reason to do it. Lara Croft has only ever been straight anywhere that bothered with that stuff at all and telling fans of that to just bow down meekly and accept it for someone's idea of an edgy progressive statement is wrong.

Make a new damn character.