Tomb Raider writer expressed an interest in making Lara gay?

[Treblaine]

I was talking more in general then to just this specific instance, but I see your point here. However now I think about it, I prefer the idea of Lara being specifically Asexual, you never see those characters in video games, or bisexuals really. Nor do I like the idea of changing what was expected of a character, as you said Lara changed so much in this game she might as well not be Lara Croft (And you know, more female protagonists is generally seen as a good thing).
I'd much rather they made a new character who was gay then change a character, but then it is their reboot.
Also, are you sure the games are the only canon work? I thought someone earlier in this thread said there were some canon comics or whatever?

Not having any in-game relationship isn't the same as being asexual.

It's just the types of narrative Tomb Raider uses, an established theme for the original run of games is the independent solitude of exploration, what an individualist Lara was, she didn't have any help with any puzzles and wasn't vulnerable to being manipulated by a loved one held hostage. Her sexuality has been totally irrelevant so far which I think is something needs to stop and consider, it doesn't matter what Lara's sexual preference is when she's on such adventures.

Sexual orientation is important to people, but it doesn't define EVERYTHING about them and all they do.

The latest Tomb Raider went against the little that was established about Lara but more importantly it went against what Tomb Raider is about, which is a focus on environmental traversal, not combat. Her being gay or straight in later games wouldn't be any contradiction to something that was never established. They aren't changing her if she were to be gay. You can make assumptions about Lara's sexuality but you cannot have assumed one way or another, and assumptions without basis aren't inherent parts of character.

Also, are you sure the games are the only canon work?

Yes. Nothing that happens in comics is ever depended upon in games, they are prime. The comics are spin-offs.

But technically, after the latest reboot, the only canon work is the single game Tomb Raider (2013).

The comics had their own entirely separate canon, separate from the games.

 

[Treblaine]

So? I don't get your point. Just because you can make up some convoluted retcon of the character is not a reason to do it. Lara Croft has only ever been straight anywhere that bothered with that stuff at all and telling fans of that to just bow down meekly and accept it for someone's idea of an edgy progressive statement is wrong.

Make a new damn character.

Not in the original series.

Remember:

Absence of explicitly establishing a character as gay =/= establishes them as straight

It was never put in any unequivocal terms that Lara has no sexual interest at all in women. In fact sex never enters into it. You can only assumed she is straight. She is never been shown as straight. As what is "straight", being heterosexual, only interested in the opposite gender.

See, sex has just been irrelevant to the Tomb Raider style of narrative. There just isn't time for romance alone trying to navigate through a giant death-trap, where the few people she meet are villainous goons right out of a dime comic book.

But the writer has been talking about doing what hasn't been done before, actually explore Lara's romantic relationships, something no Tomb Raider game has approached before.

And all options are open, you can't say Lara can't be gay now as she wasn't gay before... she wasn't straight before, either.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

I would actually like characters, male and female to stop being so damn sexualised with their wants pushed out there and on to us.

The angry homosexual spectre of Dragon age is hovering about, but what I am getting at is as nice as it is to push boundaries and make a character gay or what not, wait, no it isn't nice, it is just getting old. This pandering, this desperation to appeal to a certain demographic (we can get gays and women in with Raiden) is tiresome.

Make the damn games, stop pushing gaming characters as the reps of the sub-cultures upon us. Trying to make a lesbian gaming messiah is caring too much about politics and ticking p.c boxes, and not enough focus on the game and what the character is doing (it is focusing on who they are doing or want to be doing).

End rant.

Normally I'm not bothered by people's comments. But this post reeeeeaaaaally scraped by me the wrong way. You are a demographic yourself, presumably a straight male (I apologize if I'm incorrect in that assumption).

When designers are creating characters for their games, you are the very first demographic they try to appeal to. Whether or not you are receptive of it or even care about their attempts is irrelevant; they are going out of their way to create a game that appeals to your interests whether or not it is successful. They are pandering to YOU. You are the person they are going out of their way to appeal to, a single demographic who plays games out of many different demographics of people who also play games.

You comment that all of this pandering developers are doing is tiring when they're trying to appeal to other groups, but well... how are Women, LGTB among other groups supposed to feel about that? Wouldn't they find it tiring that they aren't getting as much representation? You've explicitly said yourself that it bothers you when a character that appeals to women / gay men is in the games you play. Does it bother you when a character meant to appeal to you is in the game?

You've said that who they fuck is irrelevant, but how many protagonists have a love interest that are involved in the plot in some way? Would you say that is sexualized? Because remember, there were never plans for Lara to bang anyone. If she did have a love interest involved in the plot she wasn't going to tear her clothes off and have a 20 minute sex scene with them.

It isn't called over-sexualized until people start what gender the character in question wants to be with. That somehow homosexual relations are inherently more sexual then hetrosexual ones. That is the vibe I always get when these sorts of topics arrive and... it bothers me. It bothers me a lot. Is there some sort of difference I don't understand? When discussing a character it is assumed they are hetrosexual and if anyone suggests that they might not be, people start going on about how their video games are being oversexualized and that all of these other demographics are invading and ruining the video games.

I'm sorry if homosexual men/women in your videogames somehow make you feel more exposed and vulnerable to the ugly world of sex and humping.

God... I apologize if I offended you. It wasn't aimed at your specifically, just the general attitude I'm feeling in this thread. I need a glass of water or something..

It is all good, no offence taken!

What I am arguing against is a trend, the trend of pushing the sexuality of characters on to the audience. Arguing against a current trend will always find opposition, it will scrape people the wrong way. That is all good, no one dies from being offended and we get to talk to eachother about this.

Now some will say that making characters gay, lesbian, bi or whatever adds depth to a character and a game. I don?t think it does at all; but this is arguing against a new goalpost as to what depth is and involves. I say It is about trying to appeal to another segment market (gay shep! Raiden, gay hawke), and the realisation of this is so often cheap, poorly done, out of place (my character is gay now because I jokingly took the flirt option, my female character is a lesbian now because she comforted a female colleague and now we have unlocked the gay side-story?) This whole thing is not depth, tell a story, push characters through an ac, pursuing sexual dialogue options and banging aliens is not depth.

So that is what I wanted to say, I?m reading over what you have said now...
On demographics and boxes, I will say people rarely fit neatly inside them. It can be a branch to boost your argument up on, but they are very crude.
Pandering. Okay the problem here is that it is a trick. The pandering is just trying to sell them something, by giving them a shout out or a bit of dlc/side content to get them on board. The identity politics cards are played thick and fast, and what most gets my goat (baaa!) is that we are supposedly meant to jump for joy at this shallow new content, a same-sex sex scene, a gay planet to explore with our rocket, because it supports PC attitudes, it is all inclusive (well as much as they bothered to include, someone always gets left out, oh no!) and that is meant to be a good thing we don?t question.
No, focus on the damn game developers, and stop trying to bribe us with this trash. That is at least what I would say to such developers that push this upon and want to keep doing it in the future.

The gay Lara rumour. What if I don?t want a gay Lara? She has never been gay before (although she may have a fetish for torturing her butler), I don?t want her to suddenly latch on to another woman like a facehugger of the groin and raid those sort of tunnels and tombs. Stick to the adventure game, give us an adventure. Stop altering established characters with new gay/lesbian options, this is not depth.

Now, if they got to the lesbian sex scene after a lot of character development, or to close the game with it, I?d have less of a problem with it, but, to do this means they have spent a lot of time on this, and a lot of the game?s focus. I don?t want a friendship simulator in my action/adventure game, I?ve got friendships, I?m playing the game for a fun time, not a slow romance or same-sex scenes paraded about.

?If she did have a love interest involved in the plot she wasn't going to tear her clothes off and have a 20 minute sex scene with them.?
Speculation about something that hasn?t happened, it never went down this course, so we don?t know yet.

?That somehow homosexual relations are inherently more sexual then hetrosexual ones. That is the vibe I always get when these sorts of topics arrive and... it bothers me.?
I am against both being pushed too hard, forced into games where they stand out as glaring sign-posts of we put it in, aren?t we great! No, no you are not. Especially if the sex scene ends up being crap, lol.

I think I want my porn, and the identity politics baloney ?look we have a token black/lesbian/gay person? strongly kept out of games. You want to represent certain people? Throw lots of them and not make it a big deal.

A friend said he hates it when a black character has a gangster past. Well, I agree, and I hate it when the token gay/lesbian character just has to be banged, and hype has built up around this. It is especially annoying if they go crazy or betray you if you don?t bang them (dragon age 1 & 2). The sexualisation of the minorities here is too damn high.

 

[Treblaine]

I saw the first movie and hated just about everything about it

That feel when all your friends say they love the Tomb Raider movie, that feel when all your friends talk about how perfect the casting was, that feel when you have played Tomb Raider games and none of your friends were ever interested.

That feel when after you say you didn't like the movie your friends all stop and look at you in silence, then one says:

"Hey, I thought you were a Tomb Raider fan?"

That feel.

Spoiler

That feel of being excluded from your own fandom as if I'm a subversive outsider. They weren't interested in the games, they didn't know what the hell they were about. I'm being told what kind of character Lara Croft is from how they watched a few god damn game commercials, and maybe playing one of the more recent games.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

:''(

I am so sorry, I slightly know that feel bro.

 

[Jedi-Hunter4]

In all honesty don't really understand the need to sexualize and put a charter in either column a, b or c ect. Why on earth does is batter what sexuality Lara Croft is, the game is not an RPG. Can't say I ever played the game an the though ever occurred to me what sexuality she was.

Being that the current back story at least suggests she is strait (mainly basis of the films) seems wrong to change the charter now. Although someone's sexuality has nothing to do with them as a person, it's still not fair to the fans, if people feel they could relate and associate with a given charter because they are like them ect could take that away from some people which wouldn't be fair.

One thing I would love to see games do is handle sexuality like BSG and Caprica did, really struck me how they did it in Caprica (obviously it is set in alternate universe so different attitudes). There was a guy who was an assassin a real cold blooded killer, he was gay, had a husband, was it shoved in your face with half a dozen cliches to show you how accepting the show was, no, was treated like any other relationship just part of the story, not of any real significance.

Thats what I would like to see in games, other charters reactions could be extreme, just like they vary in real life. But for once when a charter in a game is gay it would be nice if like any other relationship in a game, the game treats it as normal, rather than reminding you ever 5 mins encase you forget.

Just come's across as totally disingenuous to the whole story, rather than thinking just like any other charter that, that was a charter decision based out of writing, it was chosen just to tick a box.

 

[launchpadmcqwak]

Cant it just be subjective to the player?, i mean she never really expresses romantic emotions towards either sex...i dont know, maybe i am just old.

 

[Trishbot]

As a bisexual woman, I'm thrilled they just had her "be friends" with folks in the game.

I was SO damn sick and tired of "saving the love interest" in games. Nothing wrong with saving the best friend.

 

[GeneralFungi]

Snip of great justice

I get why having a token character in your game is bad. It is a negative thing because it enforces stereotypes. But the games you've used as examples of having gay relationships pressured on you are roleplaying games. They are games that allow you to create a character and assume a role. One of the big selling points of those games is that you get to create a character that represents yourself. To make a character however you like. And another big selling point is the interaction with the people in your party. And of course, if you interact with them and they are pleasant to you they may become romantically involved, but.. I made the point earlier that I didn't really believe that Lara Croft should actually have been gay, because she was a developed character and it would have been a meaningless change meant to appear more PC for the sake of being PC. Which is part of your point, yes.

But in a game like Dragon Age, a game that supports the freedom of building relationships with the NPCs which may lead to romance, if they had limited your romantic options to hetrosexual relationships in a game that otherwise supported freedom in forming relationships with your squad I would feel excluded and dejected. Almost insulted. Do you understand what I'm saying? In a game that otherwise supports character freedom I would indirectly be getting the message that I'm not worth as much to the developer as the paying customer who is hetrosexual. For something small and insignificant in the big picture like who I like to stick my dick into. Without saying a single word on the manner they've indirectly implied that the hetrosexual buyer's interests are worth more then the interests of the homosexual person paying the same amount of money for the same game. It can easily be interpreted as insulting.

Before you get the wrong idea, I don't think every protagonist should be gay, or that every game should even have a gay character. It'd be nice to see once in a while of course, but I don't want the story to be compromised for something as small as that. In the case of most games the player's interests would be to have a great time and possibly have a very engaging story, which isn't something they can do if they are catering to a single group's desires all of the time. But Dragon Age's selling point was the freedom and the romance. To express yourself.

Any problems you might have with feeling pressured into banging a character has very little to do with the gender of the character in question. It is a sign of a flawed romance system, not a problem with homosexuals inserting themselves into your games. You shouldn't feel pressured to seduce anyone you don't want to no matter if the character is gay, straight, bisexual, transgendered or any of the others.

"It is especially annoying if they go crazy or betray you if you don't bang them (dragon age 1 & 2). The sexualisation of the minorities here is too damn high."

That's the part of your post I took offense with. You're saying the problem is that the character is gay. It isn't that the creators implemented their system poorly. If the character that turned on you if you didn't have sex was female it'd be fine. We need to remove the homosexuals from the game because the developer is giving me the option to have sex with them and I don't want to have sex with them.

With all respect, it just feels like a very self-centered way of fixing the problem.

 

[Brother-Link]

I'm not going to pretend to say that I read every response so far, but I'll just put my two cents in. As a female, and a lesbian, I actually liked the idea of Lara being gay and as I played through let my mind run with that idea because for me it was one of the first times I've seen in a game a kick ass female lead run off and save her girlfriend not because of 'LESBIANSSSZZZZ' but because Sam was someone she really cared about and was going through all the crap she had to to not just 'save her girlfriend' but save the one she loved. Even if you removed the character's genders, it'd still be the same story of character A saving character B because A cared about B.

Again just what I took from the game, I know everyone else's opinion will be different.

 

[rbstewart7263]

http://www.killscreendaily.com/articles/interviews/tomb-raider-writer-rhianna-pratchett-why-every-kill-cant-be-first-and-why-she-wanted-make-lara-croft-gay/

What do you think? Like it? Dislike it? Would it change the character of Lara too much?

Personally, I don't think we will see any major changes, the franchise is mostly about raiding tombs -more like destroying tombs- anyhow.

Furthermore, although Lara Croft was designed to be an attractive woman in the past games, she seemed to lack an interest in either men or women. Therefore I doubt this will change her character in anyway.

I think its good that her sexuality is secondary in this game as we get more about her. If they do that and pair her w sam I just hope its done right and not cheezy or stupid and not believable. Id rather lara not be w anyone if they cant do that right. Though I also like how her being ambiguous in this one sets up a slow build for a relationship with sam in the next one.The buildup would add to the sincerity I think.

But you know what sexuality laras is?! Shes a TOMBSEXUAL!!! She loves Tombs.

 

[rbstewart7263]

snip

All excellent points. people are so fast to join the pessimist parade that nothing can be tried for fear of it not being done well. Well I say that even if they screwed up and made it stupid then at least they tried and thats one more step forward than if they didnt try.

were not gonna have a multitude of great and not so great female and lgbt characters by tiptoing around eggshells. We get that from being brave, making mistakes and learning from it. The approach some people would take would leed to the very thing they complain about; Not enough female protagonists!

 

[Sack of Cheese]

But you know what sexuality laras is?! Shes a TOMBSEXUAL!!! She loves Tombs.

Sorry, I can't help myself.
On the positive side, if Lara was gay, there would be more tombs to raid.

 

[Olas]

Well this sure seems like an easy safe way to get some publicity for a game and seem progressive at the same time, how bold of them. If you really want to do something interesting make a tough male character like Master Chief gay.

But honestly making any character gay who's sexuality was never important before just wreaks of publicity stunt. I like how Rowling handled it with Dumbledore, the books never mention it because it was never important to the story, it was only when a fan specifically asked about him that Rowling actually revealed it.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Snip of great justice

I get why having a token character in your game is bad. It is a negative thing because it enforces stereotypes. But the games you've used as examples of having gay relationships pressured on you are roleplaying games. They are games that allow you to create a character and assume a role. One of the big selling points of those games is that you get to create a character that represents yourself. To make a character however you like. And another big selling point is the interaction with the people in your party. And of course, if you interact with them and they are pleasant to you they may become romantically involved, but.. I made the point earlier that I didn't really believe that Lara Croft should actually have been gay, because she was a developed character and it would have been a meaningless change meant to appear more PC for the sake of being PC. Which is part of your point, yes.

But in a game like Dragon Age, a game that supports the freedom of building relationships with the NPCs which may lead to romance, if they had limited your romantic options to hetrosexual relationships in a game that otherwise supported freedom in forming relationships with your squad I would feel excluded and dejected. Almost insulted. Do you understand what I'm saying? In a game that otherwise supports character freedom I would indirectly be getting the message that I'm not worth as much to the developer as the paying customer who is hetrosexual. For something small and insignificant in the big picture like who I like to stick my dick into. Without saying a single word on the manner they've indirectly implied that the hetrosexual buyer's interests are worth more then the interests of the homosexual person paying the same amount of money for the same game. It can easily be interpreted as insulting.

Before you get the wrong idea, I don't think every protagonist should be gay, or that every game should even have a gay character. It'd be nice to see once in a while of course, but I don't want the story to be compromised for something as small as that. In the case of most games the player's interests would be to have a great time and possibly have a very engaging story, which isn't something they can do if they are catering to a single group's desires all of the time. But Dragon Age's selling point was the freedom and the romance. To express yourself.

Any problems you might have with feeling pressured into banging a character has very little to do with the gender of the character in question. It is a sign of a flawed romance system, not a problem with homosexuals inserting themselves into your games. You shouldn't feel pressured to seduce anyone you don't want to no matter if the character is gay, straight, bisexual, transgendered or any of the others.

"It is especially annoying if they go crazy or betray you if you don't bang them (dragon age 1 & 2). The sexualisation of the minorities here is too damn high."

That's the part of your post I took offense with. You're saying the problem is that the character is gay. It isn't that the creators implemented their system poorly. If the character that turned on you if you didn't have sex was female it'd be fine. We need to remove the homosexuals from the game because the developer is giving me the option to have sex with them and I don't want to have sex with them.

With all respect, it just feels like a very self-centered way of fixing the problem.

How about gay or lesbian characters that are not hyper-sexualised? Make their tastes a part of their backstory, or in their dialogue, but not a big deal during the game. The entertainment is slutting such people out and presenting them as ultra-randy hounds. Which some people go for and like sure (the porn industry is huge because it satisfies demand) but they are just buying into the representations. These representations are not nearly as progressive as they may first seem. Yay we included a gay character, pat us on the head public. You can fuck him/her because that is how we bribe sub-cultures within gaming, and it so far has worked.

I don't think so game developers/marketers, I am not buying.

So less of this, more substance to games.

I agree with the poster just above me. Olas on the publicity stunt.

 

[Arina Love]

Yes please do, that would be awesome! + prospect of girl on girl action would sell copies guarantee.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Just want to make mention of two games I alluded to.

Dragon age 1, a gay character is a totally untrustworthy dog (not an actual dog, that is another character), he will betray you if you don't sleep with him. Not a good token gay character to see in a game.
Dragon age 2, a gay character is sexually aggressive, needy, annoying and will turn on you if you don't sleep with him. Not a good token gay character to see in a game.

Less of this, the pairing of homosexuality with mental instability, deceit and dodginess.

Unless you bang them of course, then they are loyal like a b****.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Yes please do, that would be awesome! + prospect of girl on girl action would sell copies guarantee.

Pimp it and advertise for the money$$$.