Tomb Raider writer expressed an interest in making Lara gay?

[JediMB]

~snip~


~snip~

It's probably worth keeping in mind that the scene played out a bit differently in the original version of the game. We weren't shown much of Lara's face in the short exchange with Larson, and she doesn't seem nearly as disinterested in him.

 

[runic knight]

I sort of liked that article. Didn't agree with everything, but there was so much potential for discussion and opinion there, it was so refreshing. And I liked the sort of practical understanding for why choices are made the way they are. Very nice to hear rational, sensible arguments about that compared to... well, other sources.

As for Lara being gay...don't really care to be honest. Doesn't play much into the plot or gameplay. I can see it possibly being used as a means to add emotional weight to a side character capture or something, love interest kidnapping style, though that would be pretty lazy for writers taking the time to make lara more a character of late anyways.
I'm not the sort to imprint on a hero unless I made them myself, which is rare for a character driven story. As such, I accept the role and play as a means to propel the story forward and add value to playing the game. From that perspective, the character's sexuality doesn't matter much except how it affects the story itself or, god help us, the gameplay mechanics.

 

[maninahat]

I was far more interested about them touching on that old issue of vulnerability and gender (the question, "are we making her vulnerable because she is a woman?"). I was thinking about this the other day; the vast majority of thrillers and horror movies have vulnerable, nubile, attractive women in peril - often in varying states of undress. Just look at DVD covers in the horror movie section, and you'll see chicks in the shower, or in a flimsy top, about to be assailed. There is this idea that as thrill writing needs people in danger, and sexy women are apparently easier to depict as vulnerable, it is always women that are put into these situations.

Think about the question in reverse: why don't we depict more men as vulnerable? And I don't just mean physically, I mean emotionally vulnerable too. Die Hard, Max Payne, Silent Hill, and many other pieces of entertainment have vulnerable males, but they still retain a degree of stoic determination, to the point that beyond an occasional grimace or a surprised "what the hell!", they'll still keep going without much complaint. It isn't just that we are more comfortable with depicting emotional women, we are uncomfortable with emotional males. If Lara cries at any point, or feels utter terror, we wouldn't bat an eyelid because we expect a woman to behave like this. When Rambo sobs at the end of First Blood, it was a shock, because we just don't conceive big strong matcho guys as acting this way. Basically, if a male character shows too much emotion; if he cries, complains, or finds himself unable to face the challenge ahead of him, we dismiss him as a "whining pussy" or "gay". Women are spared this.

The long story short: writers can make a woman a bad ass fighter, but they still struggle to make a man a sensitive, fragile, compassionate figure.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

So long as she isn't fetishized and turned into a walking sex fantasy for straight guys like most lesbians/bisexual women are in media, and instead have Lara's feelings and relationships fleshed out, I'm fine with this.

 

[A Distant Star]

Have any actual lesbians (or queer people at all) chimed into this conversation? Cause this seems kind of a tepid circle jerk right now

Okay.

I don't see why anyone gives a fuck. My sexuality is unimportant. It's one particular part of my identity that in no way defines who I am as a person. There are other, much more important aspects of my personality that's more interesting to talk about.

If Lara were gay I'd just say, "that's nice and everything, but what about the years of therapy she's going to need after becoming a mass murderer?"

But this matters to the rest of you because...idk? People treat queers differently and writers want to be progressive and show we're normal people like everyone else or some deep shit like that?

In any case, I'm black too. So lets connect this last part up with something else.

A controversy that was going on when Thor released was that a black actor was playing a Norse(ie white) character from the comics. To me personally, this was just sort of stupid. And stupid in such a way it was jarring.

I guess how I feel about it is, race, sexuality, and gender are inconsequential. But if you feel like you have to be progressive, don't try to do it with established characters.

(That rant went on for way longer than it needed to)

I would totally play a spin off game thats a dialog based game where Lara is in therapy!

And I think it does matter that queer people comment on queer issues. That doesn't mean you have to instantly take a specific stand, but it shouldn't just all be the majority talking about the minority.

snip

Firstly I'd like to say I'm not homophobic at all (it seems kind of a low blow you would say that). I have just always identified with Lara since the first game came out. I identify with Rainbow Dash too and guess what people say about her. I just always feel like straight women are relegated to being a meek damsel and the minute you show any sort of backbone, well you must like girls.

It's depressing.

RPGs are a bit different, I don't think you can take scripting errors as "de facto lesbian depictions".

That's not the kind of text error I mean, what I mean is games like Kingdoms of Amalur where a lot of female npc's flirt with you just because they couldn't be arsed to change the text. In that game you are even implied to have been in a relationship with the major female npc... The games that I can think of where this also happens in Fallout 2, Vampire the masquerade, Baldur's Gate, Fallout 3, Skyrim (although at least you can marry blokes), Arcanum even in Recettear the girls flirt with each other constantly. I'm not trying to argue this was put in intentionally for lesbian gamers but they can still enjoy it not to mention the fact I'm sure they enjoy all the cheesecake that's there for the blokes... . Meanwhile the men treat you like chopped liver.

The effect is described pretty well in this article. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9024-The-Accidental-Lesbian

(As for Sarkeesian pretty sure that was only the first part of her damsel study :/)

I would still love Lara if she was gay, but I'd identify less with her.

You say you're not homophobic, and yet you expressly stated that gay women are less deserving of your empathy. I really dont know how else to take that statement. You also seem to have this bias blind spot towards thinking there are more gay heroins in triple A titles out there then straight ones. So to you I issue a challenge. Name me one. Not characters people write lesbian fan fic about, not one who is implied to be bisexual for some male sexual fantasy, not some side character, not some heterosexual character who first with your female character because of bad script editing. An actual confirmed lesbian as the main protagonist of a video game franchise. That's all I ask... name me 1, just one.

I will save you some time... you can't. There are literally none.

I remember reading that article when it was first posted... and yes. That sort of lazy editing in RPGs is a problem, but it also doesn't mean that your PC is a defacto lesbian just because some NPC flirted with her... or for that mater it doesn't mean that PC is one either. Bad script editing is just that, bad script editing, and while it does have a habit of plunging you into the uncanny valley (I definitely remember a very awkward conversation in ME2 I had with Tali) this is en entirely different thing then from a writer in a game where everything is pre-scripted choosing to make a character gay. The two things are not the same, and you are conflating them.

Listen, women have it tough in video games, for a lot of reasons. Under represented and then often objectified when they are included. So your position of "We need more identifiable women in games" is certainly an understandable one. But dont gay women (and biwomen, and transwomen) deserve the exact same consideration? For all your talk of how lesbians out number straight women, the numbers do not add up. It seems from where I am standing your position is born of privilege. You're using a lot of the same arguments I have heard come out of dudebros when discussing all those annoying women in games. If Lara turned out to be gay, and it was done solely for the benefit of male fan service? Then yes, that's a huge fucking problem. But if you read the interview, that's clearly no what Miss Pratchett had in mind. She was really just expressing an interest on expanding the character into a way that included her sexuality. Because regardless of whether she is gay or straight, sexuality is a very humanizing thing, and it does with the attempts to make a more understandable and relateble Lara.

But in the end it's all just a storm in a tea cup. If you read the interview, it's not something Pratchett ran by any one at Crystal Dynamics, it's just something she expressed a personal interest in exploring. Until the people at Crystal Dynamics come out and say "Lara Croft is a lesbian" then I think we can safely assume she isn't. (Though in my play through I definitely got the feeling she had a thing for Sam, but I suspect thats a side effect of the Damsel in Distress trope, I discus that elsewhere in the post you are quoting.)

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Having no empathy for her and not relating to her are two different things. I'm not homophobic I assure you.

It's annoying that we have to fight over a strong female protagonist really there should be more choice for both of us. It's like we are fighting over a chocolate bar while the lads are eating lobster thermidore in the next room.

I think what I am trying to say is that I very rarely see my female character have a relationship with a male character on screen whilst at least lesbians can live vicariously through the mistakes we have mentioned or just the fact that the female character can access choices provided for the male.

Do you at least get where I'm coming from there?

 

[jcfrommars9]

Until the people at Crystal Dynamics come out and say "Lara Croft is a lesbian" then I think we can safely assume she isn't. (Though in my play through I definitely got the feeling she had a thing for Sam, but I suspect thats a side effect of the Damsel in Distress trope, I discus that elsewhere in the post you are quoting.)

It's interesting how often I read people saying that. My own interpretation is different. In that movie Tombstone, Doc says he's helping Wyatt take down the Cowboys because he's his friend. One of the guys says he has lots of friends. Doc responds that he doesn't. In that sense, it never struck me that Lara would have a thing for Sam anymore than she would for Roth. I always saw Roth and Sam as people that were there for Lara when she needed in Roth's case, a father or in Sam's case a friend. I also noticed that those are two that implicitly trust Lara and know her in ways few others do.

 

[A Distant Star]

snip

Having no empathy for her and not relating to her are two different things. I'm not homophobic I assure you.

It's annoying that we have to fight over a strong female protagonist really there should be more choice for both of us. It's like we are fighting over a chocolate bar while the lads are eating lobster thermidore in the next room.

I think what I am trying to say is that I very rarely see my female character have a relationship with a male character on screen whilst at least lesbians can live vicariously through the mistakes we have mentioned or just the fact that the female character can access choices provided for the male.

Do you at least get where I'm coming from there?

I would love to see Lara in a relationship. I personally don't much care if its with a man or a woman. Like I said, sex is humanizing, or alternatively, they could have Lara be asexual, but deal with it head on. Basically, I just dont like how games completely ignore sexuality. Gay,straight, bi, trans, asexual PCs are all awesome and I want to see more of them all... I am just tired of sexuality being this topic we only approach as juvenile fantasies and no other way.

Until the people at Crystal Dynamics come out and say "Lara Croft is a lesbian" then I think we can safely assume she isn't. (Though in my play through I definitely got the feeling she had a thing for Sam, but I suspect thats a side effect of the Damsel in Distress trope, I discus that elsewhere in the post you are quoting.)

It's interesting how often I read people saying that. My own interpretation is different. In that movie Tombstone, Doc says he's helping Wyatt take down the Cowboys because he's his friend. One of the guys says he has lots of friends. Doc responds that he doesn't. In that sense, it never struck me that Lara would have a thing for Sam anymore than she would for Roth. I always saw Roth and Sam as people that were there for Lara when she needed in Roth's case, a father or in Sam's case a friend. I also noticed that those are two that implicitly trust Lara and know her in ways few others do.

Roths relationship with her was very very paternal, and like I said, I think my lesbian reading of Tomb Raider had more to do with being trained by the damsel in distress trope then any actual inter character dynamic. (Male protagonists are always rushing out to save there objects of sexual representation, so gender swap the protagonist I instantly pull the same vib.)

 

[jcfrommars9]

I can HONESTLY say that I don't freaking understand this need to forcefully "re-invent" existing characters, be it movies, comics or games.

It's idiotic to me. Maybe it's because the industry is so backwards that they can't take risks by creating an entirely new blockbuster character, and instead opt to "change up" a known brand to suit their specific needs at the time.

I never believed that. There's Kratos, Nathan Drake, Commander Shepard (both male and female), Agent 47, Riddick (who made just as much of a name for himself in video games as he did in the movies), etc. and that's just in gaming. Even re-inventing an existing character is a risk. Unlike what some think, there's no guarantee for success. If anything, there's even more room for scrutiny. Some people's initial criticism of James Bond for instance being blond and their criticism of Lara's character in this Tomb Raider reboot is proof of that.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Have any actual lesbians (or queer people at all) chimed into this conversation? Cause this seems kind of a tepid circle jerk right now

Okay.

I don't see why anyone gives a fuck. My sexuality is unimportant. It's one particular part of my identity that in no way defines who I am as a person. There are other, much more important aspects of my personality that's more interesting to talk about.

If Lara were gay I'd just say, "that's nice and everything, but what about the years of therapy she's going to need after becoming a mass murderer?"

But this matters to the rest of you because...idk? People treat queers differently and writers want to be progressive and show we're normal people like everyone else or some deep shit like that?

In any case, I'm black too. So lets connect this last part up with something else.

A controversy that was going on when Thor released was that a black actor was playing a Norse(ie white) character from the comics. To me personally, this was just sort of stupid. And stupid in such a way it was jarring.

I guess how I feel about it is, race, sexuality, and gender are inconsequential. But if you feel like you have to be progressive, don't try to do it with established characters.

(That rant went on for way longer than it needed to)

Dude! I remember when if you were white and you said that you were called racist by those "more progressive" than yourself.

One thing I try to tell people is yeah Im white but that doesnt mean my opinion on things doesnt matter.If I woke up tomorrow and all the characters were black and gay I wouldnt give a fuck anymore than I do now that they are white and straight.

 

[jcfrommars9]

Until the people at Crystal Dynamics come out and say "Lara Croft is a lesbian" then I think we can safely assume she isn't. (Though in my play through I definitely got the feeling she had a thing for Sam, but I suspect thats a side effect of the Damsel in Distress trope, I discus that elsewhere in the post you are quoting.)

It's interesting how often I read people saying that. My own interpretation is different. In that movie Tombstone, Doc says he's helping Wyatt take down the Cowboys because he's his friend. One of the guys says he has lots of friends. Doc responds that he doesn't. In that sense, it never struck me that Lara would have a thing for Sam anymore than she would for Roth. I always saw Roth and Sam as people that were there for Lara when she needed in Roth's case, a father or in Sam's case a friend. I also noticed that those are two that implicitly trust Lara and know her in ways few others do.

Roths relationship with her was very very paternal, and like I said, I think my lesbian reading of Tomb Raider had more to do with being trained by the damsel in distress trope then any actual inter character dynamic. (Male protagonists are always rushing out to save there objects of sexual representation, so gender swap the protagonist I instantly pull the same vib.)

I understand. Roth's relationship with Lara being very paternal was kind of my point. When I thought of Lara and Sam, I just got very much, "she's my best friend and I don't have many friends" type vibe between them, at least from Lara's point of view. Both lacked any sense or assumption of romantic tension in my opinion.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I thought there was already something going on between Lara and Sam, when I played it. It's more fun this way, since it doesn't need to be spelt out everytime, and this way you can kind of decide for yourself. Personally, by the end I was convinced that there was some serious tension there.


- She keeps obsessing about Sam, even when others just drop dead.
- She goes to great lengths to save her.
- She carries her down a freaking mountain, in her arms. They had just defeated the bad guys, and she didn't seem that hurt, so I'm not sure why that was necessary. XD


It's kind of like the trope where the prince needs to save the princess, except they were both women here.

by the first part of the game sam would have been the dom in that relationship but by the end it was lara on top!lmao

 

[TheDoctor455]

This does't surprise me at all, Sam does seem to be a little obsessed with Lara and out of all her friends that Lara takes to the island, Sam does seem to be her main concern.

I kinda like it that way, maybe there is something there, maybe they're just really close friends. But if they had just made Lara gay, it wouldn't of bothered me. Though I imagine that some fanboy/girl somewhere would have been upset about it.

I agree. It would have been interesting if they'd made it 'official' as it were.

(no intended euphemisms there, you dirty minded person you)

I just think the industry needs a more diverse set of characters, period, just as Miss Pratchett here believes.
Should some be badass? Yes. Should some be vulnerable? Yes. Both? Most definitely.

But should every character be any of the above all the time? No. It depends on what the story demands of its characters... or what they demand of it.

Incidentally, I'd love to see a game where one of two demographics I fall under is depicted in a sympathetic light.

Those 'labels'?

Atheist.

and Asexual.

The first is usually portrayed, in all media, as either a moustache-twirling villain, or (ironically enough) a Knight Templar trying to undermine or destroy religion at every turn. The second is... almost not depicted at all. Only example of the latter I can think of is Ozymandias from Watchmen, the comic anyway... the movie made him gay... for no apparent reason. (one of his employees in the comic refers to him as 'that asexual oaf'... only Rorschach was ignorant enough to think Ozy was gay)

 

[A Distant Star]

Until the people at Crystal Dynamics come out and say "Lara Croft is a lesbian" then I think we can safely assume she isn't. (Though in my play through I definitely got the feeling she had a thing for Sam, but I suspect thats a side effect of the Damsel in Distress trope, I discus that elsewhere in the post you are quoting.)

It's interesting how often I read people saying that. My own interpretation is different. In that movie Tombstone, Doc says he's helping Wyatt take down the Cowboys because he's his friend. One of the guys says he has lots of friends. Doc responds that he doesn't. In that sense, it never struck me that Lara would have a thing for Sam anymore than she would for Roth. I always saw Roth and Sam as people that were there for Lara when she needed in Roth's case, a father or in Sam's case a friend. I also noticed that those are two that implicitly trust Lara and know her in ways few others do.

Roths relationship with her was very very paternal, and like I said, I think my lesbian reading of Tomb Raider had more to do with being trained by the damsel in distress trope then any actual inter character dynamic. (Male protagonists are always rushing out to save there objects of sexual representation, so gender swap the protagonist I instantly pull the same vib.)

I understand. Roth's relationship with Lara being very paternal was kind of my point. When I thought of Lara and Sam, I just got very much, "she's my best friend and I don't have many friends" type vibe between them, at least from Lara's point of view. Both lacked any sense or assumption of romantic tension in my opinion.

When looked at objectively, I believe your understanding was the one intended by the writing staff. I was even aware of it as i was playing it. Like I said I made no claim that the relationship dinamic I pulled was the correct one, in fact I have gone to great lengths to explain why I think it is incorrect. That rather then being what was intended I jumped to that conclusion because pop culture has trained me to jump to that conclusion.

 

[jcfrommars9]

Until the people at Crystal Dynamics come out and say "Lara Croft is a lesbian" then I think we can safely assume she isn't. (Though in my play through I definitely got the feeling she had a thing for Sam, but I suspect thats a side effect of the Damsel in Distress trope, I discus that elsewhere in the post you are quoting.)

It's interesting how often I read people saying that. My own interpretation is different. In that movie Tombstone, Doc says he's helping Wyatt take down the Cowboys because he's his friend. One of the guys says he has lots of friends. Doc responds that he doesn't. In that sense, it never struck me that Lara would have a thing for Sam anymore than she would for Roth. I always saw Roth and Sam as people that were there for Lara when she needed in Roth's case, a father or in Sam's case a friend. I also noticed that those are two that implicitly trust Lara and know her in ways few others do.

Roths relationship with her was very very paternal, and like I said, I think my lesbian reading of Tomb Raider had more to do with being trained by the damsel in distress trope then any actual inter character dynamic. (Male protagonists are always rushing out to save there objects of sexual representation, so gender swap the protagonist I instantly pull the same vib.)

I understand. Roth's relationship with Lara being very paternal was kind of my point. When I thought of Lara and Sam, I just got very much, "she's my best friend and I don't have many friends" type vibe between them, at least from Lara's point of view. Both lacked any sense or assumption of romantic tension in my opinion.

When looked at objectively, I believe your understanding was the one intended by the writing staff. I was even aware of it as i was playing it. Like I said I made no claim that the relationship dinamic I pulled was the correct one, in fact I have gone to great lengths to explain why I think it is incorrect. That rather then being what was intended I jumped to that conclusion because pop culture has trained me to jump to that conclusion.

Then my apologies because I misspoke. I wasn't trying to insinuate you were wrong, just that my view of their relationship was different regardless of whether it was correct or not.

 

[A Distant Star]

I would like to digress a bit from the topic of Laras sexuality and go to something else Pratchett spoke about in this interview.

The topic of portraying a vulnerable female character. You know, maybe it's just me... but I think people are asking the wrong question here. The question isn't why are female character portrayed as volnurable (the answer is: vulnerability is very humanizing) but I am more interested in why male characters are not. Why can't we show Nathan Drakes moments of vulnerability? It would make him less of a character. (I love the Uncharted games, but Nathan doesn't strike me as actually being quite human)

 

[A Distant Star]

Until the people at Crystal Dynamics come out and say "Lara Croft is a lesbian" then I think we can safely assume she isn't. (Though in my play through I definitely got the feeling she had a thing for Sam, but I suspect thats a side effect of the Damsel in Distress trope, I discus that elsewhere in the post you are quoting.)

It's interesting how often I read people saying that. My own interpretation is different. In that movie Tombstone, Doc says he's helping Wyatt take down the Cowboys because he's his friend. One of the guys says he has lots of friends. Doc responds that he doesn't. In that sense, it never struck me that Lara would have a thing for Sam anymore than she would for Roth. I always saw Roth and Sam as people that were there for Lara when she needed in Roth's case, a father or in Sam's case a friend. I also noticed that those are two that implicitly trust Lara and know her in ways few others do.

Roths relationship with her was very very paternal, and like I said, I think my lesbian reading of Tomb Raider had more to do with being trained by the damsel in distress trope then any actual inter character dynamic. (Male protagonists are always rushing out to save there objects of sexual representation, so gender swap the protagonist I instantly pull the same vib.)

I understand. Roth's relationship with Lara being very paternal was kind of my point. When I thought of Lara and Sam, I just got very much, "she's my best friend and I don't have many friends" type vibe between them, at least from Lara's point of view. Both lacked any sense or assumption of romantic tension in my opinion.

When looked at objectively, I believe your understanding was the one intended by the writing staff. I was even aware of it as i was playing it. Like I said I made no claim that the relationship dinamic I pulled was the correct one, in fact I have gone to great lengths to explain why I think it is incorrect. That rather then being what was intended I jumped to that conclusion because pop culture has trained me to jump to that conclusion.

Then my apologies because I misspoke. I wasn't trying to insinuate you were wrong, just that my view of their relationship was different regardless of whether it was correct or not.

Well I dont think this is really a right or wrong issue, so I misspoke a bit when I used those terms. I understand what you where getting it. I was merely speaking to the intent of the writing staff. Which is to say, I dont think they intended a lesbian vibe from Lara (although after reading that interview, who knows)

 

[locoartero]

Just tweeted her about it and she got back to me with this.

Rhianna Pratchett ‏@rhipratchett 4m
@Bennjoon I was just musing on the subject/topic. The title of the piece was a bit misleading. It wasn't something I set out to do.

Yay.

Disclaimer (I would be upset not because she would lesbian but because Lara is like the single games character I relate too....so yes I'm super selfish )

She also stated she wanted to keep it "ambiguous".
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?p=6714752#post6714752

I guess no one's feelings would be hurt that way, people who root for it or against it.

Yeah, I would love to see Lara have a boyfriend mostly because it was stated back in the day they did it deliberately so lads could feel like 'she belonged to them' -.- (not even joking) but ambiguous is fine with me. As then people can have their own head canon.

That was the logic? Really? Damn, that's pretty sad. Now that I think of it I don't believe I know of any games where you play as a female in a relationship (besides Bioware RPGs). Wonder why that is >.>

Persona 3 Portable allows for relationships a female. Also, maybe Persona 2. Or Fallout 2 and 3 (if those things you do to get certain things done, say with Mr. I wanna blow a town for the view a la Marvin The Martian-Brooke, for example) Also, technically Juliet Starling is in a relationship. He's a disembodied head, but still. But, yes, most examples that come to mind are either Bioware RPGs or visual novels.

 

[grey_space]

If Lara were gay I'd just say, "that's nice and everything, but what about the years of therapy she's going to need after becoming a mass murderer?"

I don't know why, but I laughed at this comment.

Oh no wait; I do actually know. It's funny and makes a good point.

Unless it is a proven fact that lesbians climb and shoot better that straight women (and thus will affect the gameplay in some way) why would any of us give a shite?


Wait...do they?