Tomb Raider writer expressed an interest in making Lara gay?

[Treblaine]

~snip~


~snip~

It's probably worth keeping in mind that the scene played out a bit differently in the original version of the game. We weren't shown much of Lara's face in the short exchange with Larson, and she doesn't seem nearly as disinterested in him.

Well I'd take that original scene as neutral, she's not dismissive but she's not exactly encouraging either, and what could she encourage? Larson is just too comically over the top, you can't tell if he's flirting or just being an idiot. As you can see from 3:24 Lara is generally condescending to Larson when she isn't down right confounded by his incomprehensibly folksy mannerisms.


Any indications of romantic relationships are either completely absent in the original run or neither here nor there.

Though one thing I don't get about the reboot was Alistair and Zip... they seemed to do nothing at all but be jar-jar binks style comic relief and a contrivance to have Lara explain puzzles to the player. They were not missed in TR: Anniversary which was the next TR game that Crystal Dynamics made.

 

[chikusho]

Keep the love story out of my games please.

 

[Treblaine]

Why the fuck would that be relevant at all?

The same way Nathan Drake's heterosexuality is relevant to Uncharted series, though his platonic bromance with Sullivan was probably more significant.

I doubt miss lara is the right character to do that with. She was created to pander to a male demographic and I fear making her a lesbian will just be more pandering.

There's no evidence that Lara was created that way or even became that way.

Duke Nukem was "pandering" to the straight male demographic.
Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball was "pandering" to the straight male demographic.

Tomb Raider series of games have (till recently )consistently been puzzle-adventure game with less sex or sexuality than a Tolkien novel.

You have to be honest, venerated games like of the Metal Gear Solid series have more pointless sexy-shots than you'll find in the Tomb Raider games.

And pandering is such a loaded term:

Pander
Gratify or indulge (an immoral or distasteful desire, need, or habit or a person with such a desire, etc.).

I don't see how sex is immoral or distasteful. We aren't still going by the assumption that sex is evil and only acceptable when for procreation between married couples?!?

You want to talk about pandering, let's talk about indulgence and gratification in something immoral and distasteful, killing people! What about the pandering to violence, cold blooded murder, such harrowing horrors and death in Tomb Raider (2013)? Why was it there? Why is it that a game that is supposed to be about adventure and the magical feeling of discovery, why was this game like a cross between Deliverance and Red Dawn?!? That is the inexcusable pandering to violence, in contradiction of what Tomb Raider is supposed to be about, which is a young woman's first adventure that sparks a lifetime fascination with individualist discovery of the mysticism of ancient civilisations.

Lara being in love, in romantic passionate love, is not something immoral or distasteful.

The male gaze does not corrupt, lesbian romance is not destroyed simply because straight men have an interest.

 

[feauxx]

Why the fuck would that be relevant at all?

The same way Nathan Drake's heterosexuality is relevant to Uncharted series, though his platonic bromance with Sullivan was probably more significant.

I doubt miss lara is the right character to do that with. She was created to pander to a male demographic and I fear making her a lesbian will just be more pandering.

There's no evidence that Lara was created that way or even became that way.

Duke Nukem was "pandering" to the straight male demographic.
Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball was "pandering" to the straight male demographic.

Tomb Raider series of games have (till recently )consistently been puzzle-adventure game with less sex or sexuality than a Tolkien novel.

You have to be honest, venerated games like of the Metal Gear Solid series have more pointless sexy-shots than you'll find in the Tomb Raider games.

And pandering is such a loaded term:

Pander
Gratify or indulge (an immoral or distasteful desire, need, or habit or a person with such a desire, etc.).

I don't see how sex is immoral or distasteful. We aren't still going by the assumption that sex is evil and only acceptable when for procreation between married couples?!?

You want to talk about pandering, let's talk about indulgence and gratification in something immoral and distasteful, killing people! What about the pandering to violence, cold blooded murder, such harrowing horrors and death in Tomb Raider (2013)? Why was it there? Why is it that a game that is supposed to be about adventure and the magical feeling of discovery, why was this game like a cross between Deliverance and Red Dawn?!? That is the inexcusable pandering to violence, in contradiction of what Tomb Raider is supposed to be about, which is a young woman's first adventure that sparks a lifetime fascination with individualist discovery of the mysticism of ancient civilisations.

Lara being in love, in romantic passionate love, is not something immoral or distasteful.

The male gaze does not corrupt, lesbian romance is not destroyed simply because straight men have an interest.

Hey I'm not your enemy here, I'm simply giving my opinion about it. Call it pandering or marketing or whatever you like but even today most games are marketed to a male audience, also around the time the first tomb raider came out. If you check out corp.ign.com you can see what I mean.

There might not have been sex in them but you can't deny that Lara was supposed to be sexy, she's gaming's first sex symbol.

Recently I read an article on how a game with a female protagonist was not released cause she kissed a man in it and the producers deemed that too awkward for male gamers to play. That's why I said it would be nice if gaming's first sex symbol got herself a nice boyfriend or girlfriend of course, I'm not against that, in fact I'm all for it, but it would be easy for people to see a lesbian Lara as putting on a show for the men playing the game (think lesbian make out session in the movie Jennifer's Body).

English is not my first language, when I used the word pandering I meant it this way: "Pandering is the act of expressing one's views in accordance with the likes of a group to which one is attempting to appeal". By which I meant the developers and publishers creating a game for a certain audience (The demographic of corp.ign.com and the like'. I guess that is kinda distasteful.. hm. But no I do not see sex/romance/love as immoral and distasteful.

 

[Sacman]

Eh... they're already straddling the fine line between exploitative and "mature"... and making Lara gay for the hell of it would definitely push them over the edge... a character's sexuality is really something that should either add complexity to their development or not be mentioned at all...<.<

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Agree, make it a real big deal in a story, approach it with the interest and focus to add depth (and keep away from the awful sex scenes) or stay clear of the whole shebang.

Problem is such a focus makes them game more about friendship, drama and relationships than having fun/exploring/problem solving/achieving. I suppose you could make something like the recent walking dead games with a non-hetero protagonist and supporting cast. That might be good.

Doing it poorly reminds me of the gay couple in the walking dead comic. A pretty pair slotted in to wave the flag, nobody representations, stereotypes reinforced by the submissive roles of these support characters. Oh look they kissed. Okay, and?

Zevran pages back, yep, that one. Being his friend was not enough in my playthrough. He still turns on you. If the poster wants to look up the articles and news on the aggressive gay mage in dragon age 2, they can of course do that. It was an issue in gaming for a while there.

 

[Treblaine]

Hey I'm not your enemy here, I'm simply giving my opinion about it. Call it pandering or marketing or whatever you like but even today most games are marketed to a male audience, also around the time the first tomb raider came out. If you check out corp.ign.com you can see what I mean.

There might not have been sex in them but you can't deny that Lara was supposed to be sexy, she's gaming's first sex symbol.

Recently I read an article on how a game with a female protagonist was not released cause she kissed a man in it and the producers deemed that too awkward for male gamers to play. That's why I said it would be nice if gaming's first sex symbol got herself a nice boyfriend or girlfriend of course, I'm not against that, in fact I'm all for it, but it would be easy for people to see a lesbian Lara as putting on a show for the men playing the game (think lesbian make out session in the movie Jennifer's Body).

English is not my first language, when I used the word pandering I meant it this way: "Pandering is the act of expressing one's views in accordance with the likes of a group to which one is attempting to appeal". By which I meant the developers and publishers creating a game for a certain audience (The demographic of corp.ign.com and the like'. I guess that is kinda distasteful.. hm. But no I do not see sex/romance/love as immoral and distasteful.

even today most games are marketed to a male audience

Seriously. Because you can't mean that literally. It's not like they are gender gated. It's not like there are ads only in mens rooms. It's not like the ads inherently can't be for women.

You must have heard enough on these forums that women like games like the Tomb Raider series and violent shooters. And these games are marketed for what they are. It's not like the ads are "real men buy Tomb Raider" or "Get away from the nagging wife and play this game". It's simply saying what the game is and doesn't say it's for a particular type of person, simply anyone who likes that type of gameplay.

corp.ign.com

That's IGN.

IGN is not the entire games industry, and even such, it only has 50% higher proportion of males than average for, apparently "the internet".

There might not have been sex in them but you can't deny that Lara was supposed to be sexy, she's gaming's first sex symbol.

Yes I can. And no she wasn't.

Again, sex symbol, WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN!?!?!

Pretentious magazines like The Face labelled her a sex symbol without even bothering to play the games, publishers wouldn't turn it down by the logic of "no such thing as bad publicity". It was just the first time something had been made with 3D polygons that looked remotely human and they splashed a BS headline as if fact, they didn't care about what it meant.

Lara wasn't supposed to be sexy. Morrigan was supposed to be sexy. Duke Nukem's babes were supposed to be sexy. Lara was supposed to be a badass, she was Trinity before The Matrix. Take a look at this and note this game was released in 1996, 3 years before The Matrix:

a game with a female protagonist was not released cause she kissed a man in it and the producers deemed that too awkward for male gamers to play.

Source.

Also: producers are idiots who make their millions in fiddling numbers of hedge funds then suddenly they think they know how to make games.

And... that makes no sense. Cancel a whole game over a kiss?!?! Does not compute. Sounds way more like the game was cancelled for other reasons and a kiss was an irrelevant part.

it would be easy for people to see a lesbian Lara as putting on a show for the men playing the game

No.

Please, for the love of Jebus stop and listen.

Things are not changed because people look at them. It would only be "putting on a show" if Lara broke the 4th wall by addressing the player and kissed a girl just so that the player could enjoy the sight. It's is completely detached from reality to contort a loving relationship into "a show" simply by THE MOST SELFISH of perspectives.

Only an idiot would think that two women who love each other kissing is for THEIR benefit. I know that is not you, you are saying other people will see that.

I don't waste my time with idiots. Respectfully, I recommend you don't waste your time with idiots. I request you don't waste my time telling us what idiots think.

when I used the word pandering I meant it this way: "Pandering is the act of expressing one's views in accordance with the likes of a group to which one is attempting to appeal".

Respectfully, that's a definition that's clearly not relevant, as who Lara is in love with in a fictional game has nothing to do with the developers views.

The only way your stance makes sense is in the moralistic sense of disapproval of sex, in this narrow context.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Gender issues, homosexuality issues, BAH! I don't care! Whatever you think would make a good game. I'm tired of all this freaking drama.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Hmm, I like your post, but who Lara is in love with (or who any character is in love with) can say plenty about the developers' views or the views of a writer. As in pretty gay nobodies emerge in the walking dead comic, they stay nobodies but look at me dear reader, I put them in. It is often so crudely done, clearly to tick a box and prevent allegations of a series being homophobic.

Like the idea of turning a character gay as a marketing gimmick, or including non-hetero romances as something to be marketed. Look how tolerant and progressive we are, this character will go any which way to get in your pants (or these two will turn on you if you don't romance them). That is a bit pathetic.

I don't like how the non-hetero are cast, and I am over the whole thing, the ham-handed portrayals.

 

[feauxx]

Treblaine ^
Source: http://www.destructoid.com/the-game-industry-doesn-t-want-female-heroes-249067.phtml

(did not want to quote your massive post, we don't agree and I say we do so respectfully)

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Gender issues, homosexuality issues, BAH! I don't care! Whatever you think would make a good game. I'm tired of all this freaking drama.

Agreed. Too much external to a good game is being shoved inside. Placating identities, political concerns, bah! I want a good game and I don't want my time wasted with tacked-on crap.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Treblaine ^
Source: http://www.destructoid.com/the-game-industry-doesn-t-want-female-heroes-249067.phtml

(did not want to quote your massive post, we don't agree and I say we do so respectfully)

Damn. I want female heroes. Shallow lesbian eye-candy, not so much.

It is good when you can play a female character and it isn't just a woman in a clearly male campaign.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Good link

"Women are overtly sexualized in many videogames, but they're rarely allowed to be sexual. Sure, have your female avatar swing massive boobs around in bikini battle armor, but if she dares to show physical interest in somebody? Oh, the scandal!"

I am looking forward to the last of us, and what they do with the sidekick in the story and progression of the game.

 

[feauxx]

Good link

"Women are overtly sexualized in many videogames, but they're rarely allowed to be sexual. Sure, have your female avatar swing massive boobs around in bikini battle armor, but if she dares to show physical interest in somebody? Oh, the scandal!"

Yeah I love the article (I see I terribly misquoted it earlier) but my tired mind is glad this game IS in development. Sounds really awesome to me, a fresh IP with a fresh perspective. (moar here: http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had)

I hope Lara finds a mate in her next game, male or female, whatever will make her happy

 

[Madara XIII]

That's pretty meaningless IF things stay like they are, but what i'm afraid this change will bring is them pushing every 5 to 10 minutes that.
''omg she is gay look at how we push boundaries!!!!1!!''

^ Pretty much this. Never really did Tomb Raider focus on Lara's romantic relations nor did it ever try and "push boundaries" as you said.

To me it just sounds like an attempt at making a game what it's not.

 

[Madara XIII]

Good link

"Women are overtly sexualized in many videogames, but they're rarely allowed to be sexual. Sure, have your female avatar swing massive boobs around in bikini battle armor, but if she dares to show physical interest in somebody? Oh, the scandal!"

Yeah I love the article (I see I terribly misquoted it earlier) but my tired mind is glad this game IS in development. Sounds really awesome to me, a fresh IP with a fresh perspective.

Wouldn't say Tomb Raider is so much a Fresh IP as you would suggest more along the lines of it just being a stale as hell cupcake found at the back of the oven and layered with a fresh coat of frosting to make it look new.

Don't really care much for any Tomb Raider but the direction this one took was trying to pull an Other M by giving a rather 2 dimensional character a personality and while that's all well and good, the execution was sub par.

 

[feauxx]

Good link

"Women are overtly sexualized in many videogames, but they're rarely allowed to be sexual. Sure, have your female avatar swing massive boobs around in bikini battle armor, but if she dares to show physical interest in somebody? Oh, the scandal!"

Yeah I love the article (I see I terribly misquoted it earlier) but my tired mind is glad this game IS in development. Sounds really awesome to me, a fresh IP with a fresh perspective.

Wouldn't say Tomb Raider is so much a Fresh IP as you would suggest more along the lines of it just being a stale as hell cupcake found at the back of the oven and layered with a fresh coat of frosting to make it look new.

Don't really care much for any Tomb Raider but the direction this one took was trying to pull an Other M by giving a rather 2 dimensional character a personality and while that's all well and good, the execution was sub par.

i was talking about the game remember me: http://youtu.be/CxafgI6vRTE

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Hmm, I like your post, but who Lara is in love with (or who any character is in love with) can say plenty about the developers' views or the views of a writer. As in pretty gay nobodies emerge in the walking dead comic, they stay nobodies but look at me dear reader, I put them in. It is often so crudely done, clearly to tick a box and prevent allegations of a series being homophobic.

Well Lara's the main character, so she wouldn't suddenly become a nobody the moment she becomes homosexual, and it doesn't matter how well it was done before, you shouldn't apply other people's past failures to new people making an attempt.

Like the idea of turning a character gay as a marketing gimmick, or including non-hetero romances as something to be marketed.

It can be a marketing gimmick, but that doesn't automatically mean that all instances of it will be or have to be marketing gimmicks. If your argument is that the only reason homosexual (or bisexual) options are added is for marketing gimmicks, you have a rather insulting and cynical view of writers.

Look how tolerant and progressive we are, this character will go any which way to get in your pants (or these two will turn on you if you don't romance them). That is a bit pathetic.

Look how tolerant we are, in a game where choices matter we gave you the choice to be in a homosexual relationship, but it's clearly just because we want market attention and don't believe in what we wrote. And, once again, Zevran doesn't betray you if you give him the slightest fucking bit of attention, and Anders blows up the Chantry regardless of what you do.

Wrong. In game, I gave Zevran plenty of attention and gifts, one of my favourite npcs actually until he turned on my char because I was playing it straight. Traitor gay is not a positive character. That he is already sleazy, very much a playboy and can turn on you almost reeks of right-wing propaganda on gays. Cannot be trusted, total sexual turncoats. This is not good to see.

I don't have much respect for most game writers. The plot and characters are usually pretty shoddy except in some very rare and examples distinguished by being rare. Thus as I am sure you can grasp, I want better games overall or more done in regards to plot and character. Rather than the pandering, gimmick-sauce lets march out some lesbians, ti**ies or man on man action.