Tomb Raider writer expressed an interest in making Lara gay?

[m19]

You might have noticed the "" in there for a dose of light-heartedness. Of course they can take any direction they want. I like Lara the way I like her. You wouldn't go telling a gay person to not want a gay protagonist, this is one of not too many that I like being straight. Insecurity doesn't figure into it, leave the interweb psychology for people you actually know.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

To everyone saying "but her sexuality isn't made clear". So the most likely orentation is homosexuality? That's like saying she might believe in Sikhism simply based on the fact that her religious beliefs are left undeclared. Sure it's possible, but very unlikely.

No, I think the point there is that as her sexuality has never really featured into a game, it's not a violation of her character to be gay, bisexual, straight, asexual, bi-curious, pansexual, omnisexual, or a robosexual. Homosexuality isn't that rare. It's not common, sure, but it's not like her being...I dunno, a worshiper of Dis Pater or some bizarre thing like that.

 

[Treblaine]

To everyone saying "but her sexuality isn't made clear". So the most likely orientation is homosexuality? That's like saying she might believe in Sikhism simply based on the fact that her religious beliefs are left undeclared. Sure it's possible, but very unlikely.

This isn't about likelihood in a game series with magically resurrected dinosaurs, fire breathing dragons, Atlantis mutant creatures and evil Egyptian gods trying to take over the world. But suddenly a woman who is "estranged from her parents" specifically over issues of the possibility of an arranged marriage... suddenly it's unacceptably implausible that she might be gay.

And considering she really does genuinely believe in Sikh mythology as the basis of one of her adventures and it turns out the mythological creatures are real and she has to fight them... you have chosen an amazingly poor analogy.

this is one of not too many that I like being straight. Insecurity doesn't figure into it, leave the interweb psychology for people you actually know.

How can you like her being straight, when she has never actually done anything definitely straight?!? like heterosexual relations.

I think you like either assuming she is straight... or would just like her not being gay.

 

[Sir Pootis]

snippity snip snip,

they find themselves in opposition to women's inclusion in video games, really straight men being attracted to lesbianism is no reason at all to oppose lesbiansm, nor is it even a reason to oppose progressiveness when it is for progressiveness sake.

I'm sorry I I appeared cynical, but then again, I am a bit of a cynic, but you seem quite presumptuous yourself. For one, I'm not against lesbianism, secondarily, I'm not attracted to lesbianism, and finally, I'm not straight. I just feel as though taking a well established female character and changing her sexual orientation just seems like a lazy way of making your game seem more progressive than it is.

 

[Treblaine]

snippity snip snip,

they find themselves in opposition to women's inclusion in video games, really straight men being attracted to lesbianism is no reason at all to oppose lesbiansm, nor is it even a reason to oppose progressiveness when it is for progressiveness sake.

I'm sorry I I appeared cynical, but then again, I am a bit of a cynic, but you seem quite presumptuous yourself. For one, I'm not against lesbianism, secondarily, I'm not attracted to lesbianism, and finally, I'm not straight. I just feel as though taking a well established female character and changing her sexual orientation just seems like a lazy way of making your game seem more progressive than it is.

Well it doesn't see what your attraction has to do with this, I didn't think you were saying they were pandering to YOU.

You may not have a problem with lesbian depiction but do you have a problem with men liking lesbian depictions... such a problem you'd rather those lesbian depictions were not present. Then de-facto you are opposed to lesbian depictions, just not purely because they are lesbian depictions... simply because it's something that can't be segregated away from heterosexual males.

They can't change her sexual orientation if it's never been established before. It has just been a massive question mark over the years, an X-value, an unknown.

I guess it would be better to make a new character from scratch and they pretty much have done that, but publishers these days are so risk averse yet at the same time they don't really understand or care what they are dealing with. So the results is Trademarks are recycled, the names all look the same so publishers relax. Trademark elements like the Tomb Raider title and Lara Croft name and the most basic identifiable vital statistics then the developers can go pretty much wherever you like from there.

You don't even have to have any raiding of tombs in this Tomb Raider game. I effectively IS a new character and new IP, just recycling a trademark.

And it's so different from all the previous games I really do think that if at the last minute the Publisher inexplicably lost the IP rights to Tomb Raider... then it would only take a few name-changes and they could release this Tomb Raider 2013 under a different title, with the title character renamed, and the new IP-rights holder wouldn't have any grounds to sue. It's that different.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

Why is it a problem that men find female on female relations arousing anyway?

 

[hermes]

Making a male character gay is pushing the envelope.
Making a female character gay is fan service.

Sorry, but that is the way it is. You may think you are being subversive, but adding sexual tension between attractive women is only fetish fuel.

 

[hermes]

You may think you are being subversive, but adding sexual tension between attractive women is only fetish fuel.

So? Should they stop making Star Fox games because some people out there have a furry fetish, and is "fetish fuel"?

No, but they should:
1- Not add sexual/romantic content to Star Fox, specially when its an established franchise and romance was not part of the formula before. At best, it doesn't work (look at Sonic the Hedgehog 2006), at worst it sounds like fanservice to a particular section of the audience. Or, in the event you do it...
2- Don't sale it as a subversive twist. Just don't. I would rather you do it and stay quiet about it... Trying to turn fanservice into subversive is more insulting to the intelligence of fans than just including the fanservice. I get the reason for Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball to exist or Samus changing her spacesuit battle armor for a tight suit, I just don't need the designers to give me an "intelligent" excuse in-game.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

Making a male character gay is pushing the envelope.
Making a female character gay is fan service.

Sorry, but that is the way it is. You may think you are being subversive, but adding sexual tension between attractive women is only fetish fuel.

One, wrong, two, sexist, three, even so who cares if it's fanservice as long as it is well done?

 

[hermes]

No, but they should:
1- Not add sexual/romantic content to Star Fox, specially when its an established franchise and romance was not part of the formula before. At best, it doesn't work (look at Sonic the Hedgehog 2006), at worst it sounds like fanservice to a particular section of the audience. Or, in the event you do it...

Its "established", so? Lots of things are "established". GTA was an entire loony sandbox title, whereas GTAIV was far more serious, and GTAV seems to be doing the same thing. Fallout 3 and New Vegas are great games, although far different in many ways from the first line of games in the Fallout series. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and things that have been established aren't necessarily good, just look at the thread running now about the first Saints Row game. That was "established".

You seems to confuse "established characters" with "established franchises"...
Here is the difference: GTA, Final Fantasy or Fallout (the less in that case, your example is mined with legal issues as the real reason 3 is so different than 2) are all around different characters. There is no reference to characters from the previous entries other than the occasional nods and cameos. Because of that, they are free to explore different sides of society, with different settings and different people, using established themes and gameplay mechanics.
On the other hand, established characters are written to be (hopefully) fully fledged individuals, so having someone changing a established personality trait from one game to the other is, not only uncalled, but extremely dangerous to pull off wrong.

2- Don't sale it as a subversive twist. Just don't. I would rather you do it and stay quiet about it... Trying to turn fanservice into subversive is more insulting to the intelligence of fans than just including the fanservice.

a) Its not fanservice. Its not fanservice. Its not fanservice.

That is something they have to proof, not tell me and the press about it. And, just to note, reiteration doesn't make it truer...

A lot of people still don't like gay people, and a lot of people would be very turned off by the game including homosexual content. Its not a perfect marketing decision, and people will be upset over it...

True. But my point was not about that, is was about the double standard. You can bet the amount of people that would be upset if developers say "Master Chief and Ackerson are, canonically, in a romantic relationship and it will be displayed in game" than "Sophitia and Ivy are, canonically, in a romantic relationship and it will be displayed in game". Again, I didn't create nor appreciate that double standard, but its there.

b) The woman in the article (if you read it) said she wouldn't make Lara gay for the sake of being gay, and that she'd tried to make a point of it. Commentary. Thats not fanservice, and thats not subversion. Its relevant to note also, that in fact including commentary in games can be offputting to a lot of people, who want the game to be as non-intellectual as possible. There's many people in this thread like that, so don't pretend that they don't exist or have any sway in the market.

They also said they wanted to make Lara into a victim you want to protect, and even Yatzee renamed it "hohh hehh mnheh hahh nnmh" (it makes sense in context); so excuse me if me confidence in their ability to pull a hot button issue with anything but pandering and cynicism is not very high.

I get the reason for Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball to exist or Samus changing her spacesuit battle armor for a tight suit, I just don't need the designers to give me an "intelligent" excuse in-game.

Because maybe they actually care about an issue?

If I'm using your logic, the whole point of Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and Adam Jensen becoming extremely injured to the point of needing augmentations was so that we could see him shirtless. No, it wasn't that we saw him shirtless so we could can an idea of the extent of the changes in his physiology, no, it was pandering to women and men who like seeing men with hairless chests.

Did you even read my examples? Are you, honestly, expecting me to believe Samus decided the comfort of a tight leather-like suit was worth the trade-off of a bulkier space suit, when going to SPACE? It sure increased the rate of cameras aimed at her butt, but I guess that is also relevant to the issue. Or that Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball exists because the designers wanted to explore the serious issue of teenage ninja assassins sworn to kill each other taking a summer break and playing pool fights in their bikinis? Good thing the chairwoman of an international organization and the evil assassin send to kill her are also there, they didn't forget their bikinis and are willing to forget their difference over a friendly splash of water...

I am not saying the WHOLE point of Adam's injuries was to show him shirtless; but you can bet that, if the protagonist was a woman, there would have been a lot more chances to see the "extensive changes in her physiology".

As I said before, I am not happy with the double standard, and I don't support it (I applaud efforts of decent gay or even ambiguous characters like Cortez or Kanji); but that doesn't change the fact that some homosexual relationships are viewed different than others, and trying to be edgy by playing at the "safe" side of the homosexuality hot button is not edgy at all.

Maybe I would be wrong (and I would be the first to admit to stand corrected), and Pratcher would have been able to write a decent take on an homosexual character (guess we will never know), but that is something I need to play in the game, not read in a press interview. Given the karma this game gathered about the handling of Lara and her world (as a side note, I am one of the people that felt the focus on moaning and rape in the new Tomb Raider was unsettling, and didn't change my opinion when I discovered the writer was a woman; that would have been a double standard), I am a little... skeptical this would have been handled in a classy way.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

They also said they wanted to make Lara into a victim you want to protect, and even Yatzee renamed it "hohh hehh mnheh hahh nnmh" (it makes sense in context); so excuse me if me confidence in their ability to pull a hot button issue with anything but pandering and cynicism is not very high.

There was no -they-, that was -one guy-. And what's your point with quoting Yahtzee? Okay, so she pants a lot, -what's your point-? You are aware that Yahtzee's whole schtick is being overly critical and often very nitpicky, because his whole point is -to be funny-. Not that he doesn't usually have a point, but take what he says with a grain of salt.

 

[IamGamer41]

How can you people talk about a romantic fling thing with Lara and Sam when Sam clearly talked about them meeting cute guys?

Because they make convoluted explanations about how that doesn't mean what's obviously implicit there.

What's obviously implicit is that Sam thought those guys were cute and not necessarily anyone else thought that.

What Sam thinks is not the same as what Lara thinks. They are two separate individuals.

If you read the interview you'll find Rihanna Pretchett didn't actually make any decisions nor discuss this with anyone else in the creative team, still Lara's sexuality is undecided.

Don't retcon beloved characters into things just to please whatever happens to be a hot topic right now. Make genuine characters for these games or whatever.

It is genuine. Lara's sexuality has never been explicit before.

Stop acting like this ruins her.

And don't complain about pandering when the pandering here is clear. It is the pandering to savage and grim violence, in what's supposed to be a relatively non-violent game about the wonder of exploration and discovery the game has been turned into some guerilla warfare game of cover-based shooting and such a lack of any exploration, with the simplest environmental challenges.

You know I look back and forth between the video Jim made about how there needs to be more women in games and everyone being on board with that, and this thread with people being against a well known female character being gay, and I can't help but be really confused.

Not that confusing really. It's not about gay characters, it's about taking a character with more than a decade of history and fan attachments and a distinct lack of 'gayness' and 'making her gay' in the words of the author. To be fair to her, it was no more than a contemplation she had.

Lack of gayness?!?!!? WHAT!!! You can't be serious.

Being Gay isn't an attitude, it's simply the gender preference in intimate relationships. There is not "ness" about it, there is not "Straightness" unless you are talking about geometry.

And she's never had any intimate relationships in any of the previous games. She's never given any indication of her preference of all the men and women she's met she'd never hinted at sexual interest in either. If you've made any assumption about her sexual preference it's exactly that, assumption.

And you're in no position to complain about the series being changed, it has bloody well changed, from the magical feeling of adventure and mysticism to harrowing horror of killing, by Tomb Raider being another cover based shooter with brutal neck snapping silent-takedowns and the lead character crying her eyes out over the horror of it all.

Perhaps you need to replay the game and listen to what Sam said. She said her or Lara didn't expect them to run into so many cute guys. That imply they both like guys. If you want to go back to the original I do seem to recall she was flirty to some of the male characters she didn't kill.

I do agree with you about them changing up the formula from run jumping puzzle solving to run jump shoot and piss easy puzzles. You cant deny that its a fun game. I enjoyed it a lot more then I thought I would. Plus there isnt any bullshit T-rex that takes a million bullets to kill.

 

[Deverfro]

If it makes some interesting story or character development, or if her girlfriend was a really fun or awesome character then yeah, cool. Basically do it really well, or not.

 

[hermes]

Making a male character gay is pushing the envelope.
Making a female character gay is fan service.

Sorry, but that is the way it is. You may think you are being subversive, but adding sexual tension between attractive women is only fetish fuel.

One, wrong, two, sexist, three, even so who cares if it's fanservice as long as it is well done?

One: Then prove me wrong. I didn't see a lot of people angry with the possibility of romancing Leliana, Kelly, Traynor or Liara, but when Zevran, Anders or Cortez became viable options, all hell broke loose. If Ivy and Taki were to, cannonically, "rediscover" their sexuality, the fan reaction would have been different that if Li Long and Rock did the same. Also, there is a reason "boy on boy" is considered homosexual porn but the opposite is often not.
Two: Videogames is a sexist world, so its only natural when sexist decisions are made in design, marketing or writing. To point it out is not being sexist, its just calling them out for it.
Three: Because she is an established character, that kind of fan service is almost never well done. Is like saying "what if a Mary Sue is well done?" or "what if a deus ex machina is well done?". Sure, it could happen, and I wouldn't mind if it is well done, but given the track record of that line of fan service and the handling of all the marketing of this game, I am extremely skeptical it would.

Again, I am not saying the double standard or the situation is right, desirable or justifiable, but it is real.