Too much diversity.

[Worgen]

So Extra Credit just came out with a new video about diversity.
If you don't feel like watching it, I'll just mention one thing it says. In a certain game your race is randomly selected, some players had complaints about not being able to get into the game because they couldn't make a character who looked like them. The extra credits people then make the point that, what about all those gamers who aren't white and male, they might be having the same issues with games.

Anyway, thoughts?

 

[Fallow]

I find it hard to understand. I've played as damn near everyone and everything, including a frikkin goat. And it hasn't bothered me in the slightest. Hell, I even played as Rosie O'Donnell in an NWN2 mod.


The only time I felt violated and dirty as a result of playing a specific character was in Prototype 2. That protagonist is the least likeable douchebag ever designed. He is essentially a 14 year old Slim Shady with the concentrated emo of an entire goth community. I actually tried to find a way to lose the final battle in a game-ending scenario as I couldn't stand that douchebag surviving.


On the other hand I would like to add that a dev company that designs a game to "not be fun" is unlikely to survive for long. If your customers want to play to have fun, don't be surprised when they reject your social experiment.
I have no idea if this crowd is large (wouldn't be the first time a single person was confused for a billion angry (white male cis) gamers) but if there are enough players around to support such a game/social experiment, good for them. It seems both harmless (noone is forced to play) and niche (finally a platform for all those who want "representative" games).

EDIT: I have nothing against wanting a PC with your own skin, sex, etc. Just like having preferences regarding your partner, having preferences regarding your PC is perfectly fine. I merely cannot understand why it's important (the PC thing, not the partner thing).

 

[Zhukov]

Heheh, that's awesome.

Can't say I understand the people who are made uncomfortable by this sort of thing. In games with character creation options I frequently make characters of races other than my own. Never had a problem with it.

About the closest I can think of is when I played that 2010 Aliens Vs Predator game. The marine you play during the human campaign is black. However, you don't see his face until the end. (Well, you do see him at the very start, but then the camera sort of slides into his head sideways, so it's easy to miss the fact that you're playing as the guy you just saw.) When I got to the end it came as a bit of a shock, since I'd just automatically projected my character being white.

PS. Loving the comments on the video. Not a single cogent argument to be seen, just "Waaaaah, SJWs!"

 

[Frankster]

The only times I'm bothered with having my character "look" like me is for certain rpgs like mass effect or dragon age where self insertion/power fantasy is part of the fun, when I'm not doing an RP playthrough anyways.

Otherwise I'll happily be a character of any color, sexual orientation, gender or even species.
Ecco the Dolphin was a badass protagonist!

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I didn't watch the video, so I'll just base it off the summary you gave.

I think that the reason people are complaining about not being able to play as their own race or gender or whatever is because the game is either a sim or a role playing game. I personally dislike games that give you so much options but don't let you make your own character. It's hard to be immersed in an RPG when I, an Asian, would have to play as a silent red headed Russian guy. Its not the same as the Witcher, where Geralt is his own character with his own backstory and voice. I think playing with a character you made or an established character is way more fun than some random guy who a computer chose for you. To me, those people are right to be put off by that mechanic.

The bit about non white or male people feeling I can understand, but as a non white male, I personally don't really care about the race or gender of the character I'm playing, as long as he or she is a well written and well portrayed character. I would have nothing against a game that would make me play as a bi-sexual Scottish woman (though it would come off as just trying to be edgy). I welcome diversity, as long as it takes a backseat to making the character interesting.

 

[Gray-Philosophy]

I actually find myself agreeing to a lot of the points made in the video. However, I'm still the kind of person that prefers to be able to make my own character, whether it's as a reflection of myself or a character for role playing purposes.
I would love to see more diversity in character creation though. Although some games do have a reason as to why their races are limited because of the universe it's set in. Other games don't have character creation at all because you play as a specific character that's part of it's own story, rather than your personal one, like Link from Zelda, Mario, Geralt from the Witcher and so on. In games like these it doesn't bother me at all.

 

[someguy1231]

The problem I have with "diversity" is that in recent years the term has basically been hijacked by people who want games to include certain types of characters, even if those character types should have nothing to do with "diversity".

For example, the types of "diversity" I generally approve of are games with character creators offering as varied a selection as possible. Male/Female genders, different skin colors and body types, different species if it's a sci-fi or fantasy game, etc.

What I don't like, though, is using the term to demand the inclusion of even the smallest niches and subcultures. Developers don't have unlimited time and money, and need to think about which types of "diversity" would be worth it for their game.

Another thing I don't like about the term is using it to criticize a game with a standard, default protagonist, like Geralt in the Witcher games. It seems like whenever a game is announced nowadays with a straight white male protagonist, we immediately hear cries of "Why didn't you make him black/female/gay/asian/trans/disabled/etc." If you ask developers why they didn't do something, you're automatically putting them on the defensive, and for many people, "defensive = wrong". Instead of asking them that, what you should ask them is "Why did you make the protagonist a straight white male?" Too many of the "diversity crusaders" (as I call them) fail to realize that.

Oh, and I also disagree with using the term to demand fat characters, ie "fat acceptance". Diversity, to me, only refers to what we're born with. No one is doomed to be fat, and unlike obesity, a person's race/gender/orientation/etc is not inherently unhealthy.

 

[DrOswald]

I think they make a good point, but that point is based entirely on a very big false equivalency. Like, what they are saying is true to some extent, diversity is good and I want more of it. But the rust "problem" is that you are playing as yourself. The avatar in rust is supposed to be specifically you, which is where the disconnect comes from. That avatar is supposed to be me but it clearly is not. Now, that would not bother me but I can see how it would bother someone else.

Comparing that to games where you step into the shoes of a distinct character, such as Nathan Drake, is really kind of stupid. The game avatar is not intended to be representative of you. These people are not going to have the same reaction to playing as Franklin in GTA V as they are to playing as a black avatar in rust.

That said, I don't think the rust problem is actually a problem. It was a design decision, and by the looks of it a very effective one.

Can't say I understand the people who are made uncomfortable by this sort of thing. In games with character creation options I frequently make characters of races other than my own. Never had a problem with it.

I don't think the problem is the race, I think the problem is the lack of ownership (and therefore identity). You are expected to identify as this avatar, but the very first thing that happens is that the avatar is assigned cosmetics that you in no way identify with. For people with a strong personal image it will make them uncomfortable.

 

[scotth266]

I feel like calls for diversity sometimes trivialize the diversity that's already here. For example: taking a look at Eurogamer's Reader's Choice for top 50 games of the year in 2014 [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-01-02-readers-top-50-games-of-2014], I could only find 14 titles that specifically featured white male protagonists. The rest either had games where you could choose your race/sex, games where race/sex was irrelevant/not mentioned, etc. Even in cases where you played only as a white male protagonist, there were cases where you were still some sort of minority (Wolfenstein) or you were a member of a foreign country (such as Metro Redux). Certain games like Mario Kart 8 were good on gender diversity but had little racial diversity. Other games can feature white male protagonists but still tackle themes of discrimination (Infamous is pretty much X-men the video game series, and carries over a lot of X-men's anti-discrimination/anti-authoritarian themes).

Assassin's Creed Unity got attacked for featuring 4 white male protagonists, and GTA 5 got attacked for featuring 3 male protagonists (even though one of them was black). In the case of ACU prior games in the series have featured minorities (Altair, despite being a bit bleached, is Middle-Eastern, and Assassin's Creed Liberation had a black female protagonist) which made the criticism of ACU feel somewhat empty. The criticism of GTA 5 feels similarly empty given that the themes of the story would have been hard-pressed to work with female characters (I guess Trevor could have been a woman - but that probably would have made people calling for more females in games pissed off).

 

[RJ 17]

The extra credits people then make the point that, what about all those gamers who aren't white and male, they might be having the same issues with games.

Seems to me they're making an apples-to-oranges comparison in this case. We're not talking about a game that has a standardized protagonist that's a white male, we're talking about a game that clearly has different races available as player characters. As such, you can only compare that to games where there is some agency - generally in the form of a character creator - over what the protagonist looks like. In such games where you get to create your own character, most of them allow for the selection of skin colors (and even genders) other than "white male".

So if you ask me, the point that EC was trying to make kinda falls flat. In a way, a game that randomly picks your race for you is just as "bad" as a game that forces the player to be a white male.

 

[Worgen]

The extra credits people then make the point that, what about all those gamers who aren't white and male, they might be having the same issues with games.

Seems to me they're making an apples-to-oranges comparison in this case. We're not talking about a game that has a standardized protagonist that's a white male, we're talking about a game that clearly has different races available as player characters. As such, you can only compare that to games where there is some agency - generally in the form of a character creator - over what the protagonist looks like. In such games where you get to create your own character, most of them allow for the selection of skin colors (and even genders) other than "white male".

So if you ask me, the point that EC was trying to make kinda falls flat. In a way, a game that randomly picks your race for you is just as "bad" as a game that forces the player to be a white male.

Ehh, not really, keep in mind you can count the number of games that pick your race for you on one hand. While on the other, the number of games in which you are a white brown haired dude and practically endless, occasionally minus the hair. And keep in mind, this isn't really a role playing game, this is a day z survival type game, you're character will never talk and you will really only see their hands, which can probably be covered by gloves at some point. So ultimately the look of your character matters as much as skin color does, meaning not at all, except for the weight we give skin color.

 

[Fallow]

Why exactly is diversity good or necessary? I keep seeing posts about needing more diversity in games, but I've never seen any arguments for why we need more diversity in games (I've heard opinions, but not arguments).

Is it just "common sense", like "games causes sexism"?

Why is it "bad" with a game of all black/white/yellow people? Why must all colors (not to mention genders, disabilities, and body sizes) be included? What is the benefit?

 

[GundamSentinel]

Why exactly is diversity good or necessary? I keep seeing posts about needing more diversity in games, but I've never seen any arguments for why we need more diversity in games (I've heard opinions, but not arguments).

Is it just "common sense", like "games causes sexism"?

Why is it "bad" with a game of all black/white/yellow people? Why must all colors (not to mention genders, disabilities, and body sizes) be included? What is the benefit?

I second this. In my personal experience, most of the claims for more inclusiveness I've heard are from people who are either not a minority (people feeling some sort of twisted guilt or something?), people going into a gaming experience with an agenda (let's go find fault here!) or from people who just don't play games. From what I've seen over the years online, people just don't seem to care. Don't get me wrong, inclusiveness is not a bad thing, but who exactly wants/needs this and why? I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to that.

And personally, I think a lot people complain about the Rust character creation because it is contrived, especially for that type of game, not because it's making people uncomfortable.

 

[Gengisgame]

There reply was pretentious, if it was just matter of it being done for fun or whatever that's developers choice but this is simply political.

If reminds me of the article that said GTA needs to spread messages, these people clearly do not have the game buyers interests at mind if they need to insert messages to things that shouldn't contain it. If people want to buy politically correct games go nuts, but you should let people be aware that it will be that type of game.

 

[Silence]

I prefer my own characters, I always play female.

I still have no problem with a good written male or fuck whatever, I don't care. And I don't have an issue with them.
It's even more dumb, most bogstandard white male characters don't look like you, even if you are a white male.

Planescape Torment had the ugliest character I ever played. It still is one of the best games. I did not need to identify with the character.
I don't identify with Geralt from The Witcher, I roleplay as him.


But maybe you shouldn't ask me. I think identifying yourself with your character instead of playing your fantasy of a character (if possible) is dumb.

 

[Silvanus]

Why exactly is diversity good or necessary? I keep seeing posts about needing more diversity in games, but I've never seen any arguments for why we need more diversity in games (I've heard opinions, but not arguments).

If you don't find personal preference a compelling reason, what kind of arguments would you?

This is a discussion about artistic preferences. Of course it's going to be based on opinion; that's what the topic is about.

If reminds me of the article that said GTA needs to spread messages, these people clearly do not have the game buyers interests at mind if they need to insert messages to things that shouldn't contain it.

You realise GTA has contained "messages" and social/political commentary for a good few instalments, right?

 

[Areloch]

There's definitely a difference between "The character in this game revolving around that specific character doesn't resemble you, and you cannot change them" and "This is a game where the character is your avatar into the world, but you're not allowed to change them".

If the game's story is about, say, Master Chief's adventures through space, why would it make sense to have a full customizable character?

On the flip side, people would be rightly annoyed if they had bought Skyrim, and found that the character is created randomly on a new game, and it's tied to their profile, so they can never change it after that. Fired up a new game and found out your character is a Kahjiit, but you wanted to play a Dark Elf? Too bad.

So attempting to conflate the two is wrong.

 

[WhiteNachos]

So Extra Credit just came out with a new video about diversity.
If you don't feel like watching it, I'll just mention one thing it says. In a certain game your race is randomly selected, some players had complaints about not being able to get into the game because they couldn't make a character who looked like them. The extra credits people then make the point that, what about all those gamers who aren't white and male, they might be having the same issues with games.

Anyway, thoughts?

I never understood people who say they need a woman/black person/whatever to be able to relate to a character.

I almost never relate to game protagonist anyway, because I've never had to avenge anyone or go on a quest to save the world or find myself in some haunted place. Being a white guy isn't going to help IMO.

I know not everyone is me, but the idea seems alien to me.

 

[Silvanus]

I second this. In my personal experience, most of the claims for more inclusiveness I've heard are from people who are either not a minority (people feeling some sort of twisted guilt or something?), people going into a gaming experience with an agenda (let's go find fault here!) or from people who just don't play games. From what I've seen over the years online, people just don't seem to care. Don't get me wrong, inclusiveness is not a bad thing, but who exactly wants/needs this and why? I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to that.

Well, I can only speak from personal experience and wishes, of course.

Games often contain an element of self-insertion (particularly RPGs, but far from exclusively). There's often a connection between self-insertion and escapism. With that in mind, it makes sense that somebody might enjoy playing the role of a character they can identify with more closely.

This applies to numerous scenarios: playing TLoU, the player might not have personally experienced familial loss/ protective instinct towards a child, but they're strong motivators and we find them compelling when we're playing. Ditto romances, those times they're done well, including in books and films. An element of identification is often present, even if it's not a blank-slate character.

Now, we can all out ourselves in someone else's shoes, and feel empathy / motivation for someone who isn't like us, of course. But if it's every single time-- if it's never someone like me-- I hope you can recognise why this might become alienating after a while, and why I might want to read/watch/play something I can identify with more closely. People become used to it, and lose sight of when others aren't getting the experience they are.