Too much diversity.

Recommended Videos

asdfen

New member
Oct 27, 2011
226
0
0
Rebel_Raven said:
asdfen said:
I am appalled that I cannot play as bisexual squirl from outerspace in every game that is made in my immage that clearly states that I am strong emancipated black woman of mexican origins
You say that like you want every game to be like that. If that were the case, the other people pushing for diversity couldn't get just some of the games to be less straight white guy lead.
I mean most non-extremists just want a slice of the pie, not the whole thing.
In the above I've illustrated an extreme scenario in order to show that everyone cannot be ever statisfied. Therefore calling for more diversity in games futile. Games that exist today already statisfy some and do not appeal to others, as they should. Any artistic expression, games included, will not appeal to everyone and will be biased by its creator.
 

Fallow

NSFB
Oct 29, 2014
423
0
0
LifeCharacter said:
Fallow said:
You seem to be taking for granted that diversity is a good thing. Can you explain why? (Also in question 2)
I think the last part is something you've concocted purely in your own mind. I haven't seen "let's keep everyone white all the time" yet.
Well that's what the rest of my post is about. You really shouldn't take the first part of what someone says, before they've actually gotten to their arguments, and then told them that they need to explain something. As for keeping everyone white, sure no one's saying that, they're just saying that they're fine the way things are where the vast majority are white men while whining about anyone who says they want something different for once.
Fair enough, I'll try better to not jump the gun. As for being "fine the way things are", that doesn't mean "working to maintain the status quo". Perhaps I'm misreading here, but it seems you are conflating not caring enough to do anything with actively working to prevent any change. I'm sure there are those working against, but they are not me, and they will have to bring their own arguments to this discussion.
Seriously, we can go on about the social benefits of including women and minorities into things,
Yes, please do that! This is the part I'm so curious about. What exactly are the benefits? Can you show me some solid studies?
Studies of what? People being entertained? People being better immersed in a character? People being exposed to the perspective of a non-white man? That those things tend to be good? If you need studies for those things, I'm honestly not interested in discussing it with you, not that your repeated argument about how, in a diverse world filled with diverse people, apparently the benefits of a diverse culture needs to be debated gave me much confidence.
So.... you were bluffing? These 'social benefits' were just your personal beliefs? Fair enough, but there's no need to be pretentious about it and wrap it up as some societal improvement. I like fancy cars, but I don't pretend there's any 'social benefits' of more people buying fancy cars.


Last part makes a lot of sense. This whole thing describes variety though, not diversity.
...And diversity leads to variety. In fact, I'd honestly call them synonymous if semantics wasn't a thing I don't feel like dealing with.
I'm regretting going with the whole diversity/variety thing, it was not a smart move. So let's scrap that.
Instead I should define two perspectives a and b as
a) The desire for more options for the purpose of greater personal enjoyment, and
b) the desire for minority options catering to a very small subset of the target audience, based on ideological grounds.
 

DayDark

New member
Oct 31, 2007
657
0
0
I'm caucasian, and I haven't made a single character in the elder scrolls games that was a redguard. And that was actually because I didn't see a mars-red/bronze skinnedcolored warrior race, I just saw an african man. I don't know why, but I couldn't separate the history of the black man, from the image of the redguard, so that whenever I stepped into a redguard, I felt I was kind of "overstepping" some social rule. In games where it's not a rpg, it is kind of lessened, because the person is filled with a personality other than my own, and it doesn't feel like it's me "pretending" to be a black person.

That said, I also feel that this feeling is something which is irrational on my part, and not something good. But sure, i can understand if someone feels uncomfortable being in someone elses skin.
 

Vorlayn

New member
Jun 3, 2010
90
0
0
I have played white humans, black humans, Asian humans, Indian humans, vikings, males, females, dolphins, aliens, robots, ghouls, elves, dwarves, trolls, hedgehogs, dragons, apes and even a lion at some point. "Almost all games feature white male protagonists" is utter nonsense. There is plenty of diversity. And that is a good thing. What is not a good thing is shoehorning in diversity in spots where there's no place for it. Example: Why can't you play a lesbian female Asian Geralt of Rivia? Because it does not fit the story!
 

Elfgore

Your friendly local nihilist
Legacy
Dec 6, 2010
5,655
24
13
In games such as Rust, Skyrim, Fallout, etc. Where the protagonist has a very open backstory and is pretty much a blank-slate, I see no reason as to why you can't choose gender, race, or sexual orientation. Those games should allow you to make the hero/heroine you want.

Now, when you have games that have a set protagonist. It would be nice if developers sat down and asked, "Would it be to hard to add options as to who our protagonist is, or would it change the game we want to make?" For example, Far Cry 4. From what I've played, A.J. doesn't talk much and his gender doesn't really play too much of a role. I don't see why they couldn't hire a female VA and just let you choose which gender to play as. It's a first person game, so the model wouldn't matter too much. I doubt a VA would cost tons of money. So why not just give the option if you have the funds, time, and it doesn't interfere with your image of the final product?

I've seen a lot of claims be thrown around and sadly, very little hard evidence[footnote]Evidence that I've seen at least.[/footnote] to prove why we have a lack of female/minority/LGBT characters. We've had one developer cry wolf twice now, with Publishers requiring them to change the protagonist's gender. I think I even glanced at an article that said one of CD Projekt Red's first publisher offers required them to make Geralt female. I'm sure if I googled it, I could find tons of other claims against having to change the protagonist's gender to get a game published. If those have any truth to them or are just publicity stunts, I don't know.

Back in day, I did frequently say "Diversity for diversity's sake is stupid!". I now realized how silly that was. You don't need a reason to add diversity into a game. Gender/sexual orientation/color, it really doesn't bother me, so long as the game is fun. To use a popular game as an example, I would be enjoying The Witcher 3 the same amount even if Geralt was named Helga and a woman or in a relationship with Dandelion.
 

McMarbles

New member
May 7, 2009
1,566
0
0
Areloch said:
McMarbles said:
You know, this sounds like an artistic choice on the part of the developers. I thought we weren't allowed to complain about the developers making the game they wanted to make?

Or is that only when those choices align with what you wanted from them? I mean, that would make it an intellectually dishonest argument. But what do I know?
I'd say there's a distinction between going "Man, I wish they'd do more of X or have more of Y" and generating a huge stink and petitions and demands to have the game changed.

One is a personal opinion on the art, the other is demanding it to be changed in an attempt to force the developer to change their works.

Also, does anyone have that Gal Brush image? I feel that it's relevant.
Demanding change is as much an exercise of free speech rights as anything else. If it isn't, someone really should tell all those folks who demanded that Bioware change the ending to Mass Effect 3, or all those folks who demanded that Mighty No. 9's community manager be fired. The thing about demands is that nobody actually has to listen to them. If the developers choose to, well, that would be their right, wouldn't it.

I often get the feeling that people don't really care about freedom of expression, just freedom of the expression they like. Everything else can go hang.

LifeCharacter, BTW, I love that you went back to your old avatar. Nothing else perfectly captures the feeling reading this board gives me.
 

Areloch

It's that one guy
Dec 10, 2012
623
0
0
McMarbles said:
Areloch said:
McMarbles said:
You know, this sounds like an artistic choice on the part of the developers. I thought we weren't allowed to complain about the developers making the game they wanted to make?

Or is that only when those choices align with what you wanted from them? I mean, that would make it an intellectually dishonest argument. But what do I know?
I'd say there's a distinction between going "Man, I wish they'd do more of X or have more of Y" and generating a huge stink and petitions and demands to have the game changed.

One is a personal opinion on the art, the other is demanding it to be changed in an attempt to force the developer to change their works.

Also, does anyone have that Gal Brush image? I feel that it's relevant.
Demanding change is as much an exercise of free speech rights as anything else. If it isn't, someone really should tell all those folks who demanded that Bioware change the ending to Mass Effect 3, or all those folks who demanded that Mighty No. 9's community manager be fired. The thing about demands is that nobody actually has to listen to them. If the developers choose to, well, that would be their right, wouldn't it.

I often get the feeling that people don't really care about freedom of expression, just freedom of the expression they like. Everything else can go hang.

LifeCharacter, BTW, I love that you went back to your old avatar. Nothing else perfectly captures the feeling reading this board gives me.
Ah, to clarify, both are absolutely free speech. But personally, I feel that there is a distinction to be made of voicing disappointment, making suggestions to the devs in the future on how to make things better in their future products, and aggressing the devs into following what one wants to see in their products. Nothing more or less.

So, more to the point, I'd just prefer to see more of the people rationally approaching the devs and going "Hey, I'd prefer it if you did X, or Y", rather than trying to burn them at the stake of public relations or send death threats or the like.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Jun 30, 2014
5,374
381
88
Jeez. This thread treats the character limitations in Rust as the media treats the violence in Hatred: totally blown off proportions...

EDIT: Maybe I should explain a little more. It's just a single mechanic (random character generation) that's purely aesthetic, made for a single indie game. And that's it. It has as much of a meaningful message as a blank slate character has a personality. And ironically that's the character in this game: a blank slate in a game without a plot.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
15,526
4,295
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
CaitSeith said:
Jeez. This thread treats the character limitations in Rust as the media treats the violence in Hatred: totally blown off proportions...

EDIT: Maybe I should explain a little more. It's just a single mechanic (random character generation) that's purely aesthetic, made for a single indie game. And that's it. It has as much of a meaningful message as a blank slate character has a personality. And ironically that's the character in this game: a blank slate in a game without a plot.
Welcome to the internet, were people will freak the fuck out about anything. A reasonable discussion can only last so long before it devolves into spazzing out.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
13,054
6,748
118
Country
United Kingdom
GundamSentinel said:
Well, that's completely fair, thank you.

I see a lot of people wanting to promote diversity from the angle of 'you're not a minority, you don't understand', implying that I can't have empathy with someone who isn't like me (which in itself is, dare I say it, very racist), and that as a consequence more diversity is necessary to educate me, but I just don't buy that. It's awfully patronizing.

But I completely understand that if you're basically denied a place in the fiction that you want to enjoy, that can become very grating, especially if you're looking for that particular bit of personal identification.
No worries. This discussion, more than most, needs understanding & empathy; it would be counterproductive of me to take my personal frustrations out on other gamers (particularly when I'd like nothing more than for other people to try what I like, too).

Anywho, I appreciate your openness & tone.

I'll be candidly honest, and admit that it's personal to a huge degree, and for me, has to do with personal feelings of isolation and discomfort. Fiction has given me some of the greatest experiences of my life-- admittedly, more of it from literature than games at this point, but games are a significant portion nonetheless. As a medium, they certainly have the capacity.

Fallow said:
Tagging you in, because you had responded to me earlier, and my above sentiments are essentially the same as those I would give in response to your post. Sorry about the lateness of reply.
 

asdfen

New member
Oct 27, 2011
226
0
0
Elfgore said:
I've seen a lot of claims be thrown around and sadly, very little hard evidence (Evidence that I've seen at least.) to prove why we have a lack of female/minority/LGBT characters. We've had one developer cry wolf twice now, with Publishers requiring them to change the protagonist's gender. I think I even glanced at an article that said one of CD Projekt Red's first publisher offers required them to make Geralt female. I'm sure if I googled it, I could find tons of other claims against having to change the protagonist's gender to get a game published. If those have any truth to them or are just publicity stunts, I don't know.

Back in day, I did frequently say "Diversity for diversity's sake is stupid!". I now realized how silly that was. You don't need a reason to add diversity into a game. Gender/sexual orientation/color, it really doesn't bother me, so long as the game is fun. To use a popular game as an example, I would be enjoying The Witcher 3 the same amount even if Geralt was named Helga and a woman or in a relationship with Dandelion.
The information you state here is just plain wrong.
1. Who says games lack "female/minority/LGBT"? Ever hear of Tomb Raider, The Longest Journey, Blood on Sand, Beyond: Two Souls, Final Fantasy 13-2, FF13-3, Mirrors Edge, Oni, GTA san adreas, Bayonetta, Giana Sister, Lolipop Chainsaw, Phantom Brave, La Pucelle Tactics and many others that just dont come to my mind atm. That is while the majority of developers and players are white dudes which imo shows well enough that bigotry if exist at all is minimal in the industry.
2. Witcher the game series is based on the book series of the same name making it impossible to have Geralt be anything but white Polish dude he has always been.
3. Notion that it is easy to write/tell/show/present a good story through a video game with a genderless/colorless blob is infintile. Thats why most/all of story driven games have a well defined protagonist and only games with litle story and/or huge budget can afford some wiggle room
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Jun 30, 2014
5,374
381
88
Zipa said:
Personally I think the Galbrush Paradox has merit as to why a lot of protagonists are straight white men.


Spoilered so it doesn't take up too much space, the tl;dr version of it is that devs fear to make characters a minority because they will get branded as a sexist or misogynist or a number of other things if their characters go through some shit, where as if they are male and white no one cares.

That said I wouldn't have issue with some more diverse characters as long as it fits the theme of the game or the story its telling, shoehorning them in for the sake of it or because of some quota defeats the whole point. We also shouldn't shit on games like GTAV for not having a female main character, clearly Rockstar have a story that they are trying to tell and no one should force them to their story just because its not diverse.
Good news! GTA V got scores of 9s and 10s, it sold like hot cakes, and Rockstar couldn't be any happier!
 

Genocidicles

New member
Sep 13, 2012
1,747
0
0
There's a vast difference between a game having a set player character and a game having a wide selection that you're not allowed to choose from.

People don't get angry when you can't play Tomb Raider as a male character, but I bet they'd get angry if there was a variety of potential characters and the game still didn't let you pick which one you wanted to play as.
 

Arkliem

New member
Apr 30, 2015
38
0
0
Elfgore said:
Now, when you have games that have a set protagonist. It would be nice if developers sat down and asked, "Would it be to hard to add options as to who our protagonist is
Money and Time. Triple AAA publishers want more of the former and want it done in less of the latter. New models, new animations, new dialogue(Blank Slate characters are nice for open worlds, but story driven typically needs you to flesh out your character), new voicelines(Not just of the protagonist, but of every secondary character that interacts with the protagonist in a way that relates to gender), new bugs. I can think of a game that did it though. Mass Effect. And they did it fairly well. Both Hale and Meer did well, and the character is well written either way.(Save for one really odd lapse of character in the ending, but that's another thing entirely)

So it's not impossible. It's just a much larger risk as you're spending a good deal more for something that might not pan out. And if there's anything I've learned from most AAA companies thought processes, risky is bad.


Kind of neat that a game has managed to do it before a book or movie has.(To my knowledge at least)
 

Pinkilicious

New member
Sep 24, 2014
74
0
0
I think he completely missed the boat after the halfway point. He did a nice job of selling me reasons to hate the game, when the concept is actually quite nice. You don't choose what you're born as, so if you're going to FORCE diversity upon any game, then diversity-by-ID is exactly the way to do it. He completely missed the boat on WHY people hate enforced diversity though, because it usually takes the form of Tokenism and Pandering With Positive Stereotypes, and it winds up as hamfisted as the racial tones in the Best of the Best movie franchise.
Don't know who this person is but they are horrid at analysis!
Actually, I think I have thought of two ways to get the same effect in single player. Paler tones are unlocks only + for a set time your online and offline avatars are tied. Alternatively, tie the first character created to system ID( I think that's what it's called, the MAC address maybe? Unsure if I'm getting that right) and only by completing a certain portion of the game (or the whole game if multiple paths) do you open the create-a-character. But, you should not even have the OPTION there. You are dropped into the game, select a preset number of skins, and roll. If CaC is not present, a player will always presume that this must be the MC's canon appearance, or that there's a story-related reason. If you have CaC visible but greyed out, people will be annoyed, that they are seeing something they want but can't use yet. One creates a barrier, the other hands it to you as a bonus or reward.

I have never met these mythical 'gamers that can't play things that don't look like me' however. There's a reason for the GIRL acryonym, after all. I believe they make up such stories to colour a certain view or perception that is not true of gamers. I am a short stubby white woman from eastern europe but The Boss in Saint's Row has always been to me essentially Omarosa Manigault, and that is in fact who I based the character on for my serious 100% playthroughs. Most people I know default to 'black' or hispanics forms for The Boss, either based upon the locale, or the stereotypes, especially from white males. A lot of the white male Bosses tend to be played sarcastically, as 'poseurs' and 'pretenders,' or Eminems. As in it's comical because they "wouldn't know that hardship."
The only instance I have seen of such people was ironically enough from pro-SJ videogame forum NeogaF, and their bizarre outrage over obvious Axent nod cosplayer Chloe. (I wonder if Harada was gifted with one of the fancier headsets to design her that way. She is clearly a Catgirl Miku cosplayer wearing Axent headphones)
So I emphatically disagree with his assessment, but agree with Rust creator's. There was far more diversity in the meaning the use during the 16 and 32 bit eras. I can only presume the rise of Gamestop, G4, and "pre-order culture" had something to do with the shift to "everyone must appeal to the main demographic's basest instincts." Anyone who started gaming beforehand however, I've never seen be against diverse characterisation, only enforced diversity, the stripe the opposite ends of the spectrums only are known for. (extreme indie and AAA)
 

Elfgore

Your friendly local nihilist
Legacy
Dec 6, 2010
5,655
24
13
asdfen said:
The information you state here is just plain wrong.
1. Who says games lack "female/minority/LGBT"? Ever hear of Tomb Raider, The Longest Journey, Blood on Sand, Beyond: Two Souls, Final Fantasy 13-2, FF13-3, Mirrors Edge, Oni, GTA san adreas, Bayonetta, Giana Sister, Lolipop Chainsaw, Phantom Brave, La Pucelle Tactics and many others that just dont come to my mind atm. That is while the majority of developers and players are white dudes which imo shows well enough that bigotry if exist at all is minimal in the industry.
2. Witcher the game series is based on the book series of the same name making it impossible to have Geralt be anything but white Polish dude he has always been.
3. Notion that it is easy to write/tell/show/present a good story through a video game with a genderless/colorless blob is infintile. Thats why most/all of story driven games have a well defined protagonist and only games with litle story and/or huge budget can afford some wiggle room
1. A lot of people... cause it does. The amount of white protagonist outnumber any other type. You just listed a couple dozen games out of thousands.

2. Did word that one weird. They could have simply not had you play as Geralt, recent footage showed they had that idea to start with.

3. Shouldn't a good writer be able to do it? Cause you know... it's their job to write good stuff. And you're right, most games do have a heavily well-defined protagonist. I wouldn't suggest what I did with Red Dead Redemption or Watch_Dogs. I used a specific example and said if they couldn't do it due to modeling and VA issues, they didn't have to include it.
 

Rebel_Raven

New member
Jul 24, 2011
1,606
0
0
asdfen said:
Rebel_Raven said:
asdfen said:
I am appalled that I cannot play as bisexual squirl from outerspace in every game that is made in my immage that clearly states that I am strong emancipated black woman of mexican origins
You say that like you want every game to be like that. If that were the case, the other people pushing for diversity couldn't get just some of the games to be less straight white guy lead.
I mean most non-extremists just want a slice of the pie, not the whole thing.
In the above I've illustrated an extreme scenario in order to show that everyone cannot be ever statisfied. Therefore calling for more diversity in games futile. Games that exist today already statisfy some and do not appeal to others, as they should. Any artistic expression, games included, will not appeal to everyone and will be biased by its creator.
So, because we can't satisfy the most extreme of cases, we should only satisfy, largely, only ONE group? And never try to satisfy anyone else, even if the developers wish to do so? Coz that's what it's sounding like.

Games are art, but developers often don't have the artistic freedom. They're often forced to cater to the same group everyone else has to. Lets be real, until there's the true freedom to be diverse, there will be no real artistic expression.

No one is looking for a game to be all inclusive, covering everything. That'd be absurd... or a really great dungeon master doing pen and paper.

No, the way to diversity, and variety is through many games.


Captcha: believe me
Wish people would.... I told you I'd shoot! But ya didn't believe me! Why didn't you believe me! The little critters of nature. they don't know they're ugly! A fly marrying a bumblebee.... Anyhow...
 

CritialGaming

New member
Mar 25, 2015
2,170
0
0
Elfgore said:
1. A lot of people... cause it does. The amount of white protagonist outnumber any other type. You just listed a couple dozen games out of thousands.

2. Did word that one weird. They could have simply not had you play as Geralt, recent footage showed they had that idea to start with.

3. Shouldn't a good writer be able to do it? Cause you know... it's their job to write good stuff. And you're right, most games do have a heavily well-defined protagonist. I wouldn't suggest what I did with Red Dead Redemption or Watch_Dogs. I used a specific example and said if they couldn't do it due to modeling and VA issues, they didn't have to include it.
1. They are call Minorities for a reason. Even if there needs to be more use of them, white dudes/gals, will continue to outnumber minorities as stars of games simply because they are MINORITIES meaning there are fucking less of them. Technically you can use the Final Fantasy series as minorities I guess because the characters are usually based off Japanese influence or outright Japanese to begin with. (except the black guys, because minorities!) Your logic here says that basically every game should have a non-white/american dude as the games protag, this is a pipe dream.

2. Why would they or any player want to play a witcher game, but not get to be the most famous witcher in that universe? Not to mention you've been Geralt for the previous two games and how much sense would it make for him to not be in the third. And since I'm on it. Need I point out that you play as a female witcher/source/mage in Ciri?

3. A good writer will have a collection of good diverse characters, this much is true. But that doesn't mean writers should feel like they need to make the main character a minority, or gay or transgender (See not using a slur this time because reasons) for the sake of diversity? I'm not saying that they shouldn't consider it, but only if the rest of the story they are building around that character would fit to make the character have a trait like that.

In the case of games with diversity for the sake of it let me through out a question to you guys?

You know that game Hatred? Everyone is freaking the fuck out about it right? A game in which a gothic white guy mass murders the world.

Do you realize the kind of heat that game is getting right now is NOTHING compared to the shitstorm that would befall upon that studio if that character was Black?

The point being is sometimes you need to make your character a white dude. Think about it. Diversity only works if it fits in the game world you are building.
 

PapaGreg096

New member
Oct 12, 2013
1,037
0
0
CritialGaming said:
Elfgore said:
In the case of games with diversity for the sake of it let me through out a question to you guys?

You know that game Hatred? Everyone is freaking the fuck out about it right? A game in which a gothic white guy mass murders the world.

Do you realize the kind of heat that game is getting right now is NOTHING compared to the shitstorm that would befall upon that studio if that character was Black?

The point being is sometimes you need to make your character a white dude. Think about it. Diversity only works if it fits in the game world you are building.
By that logic I'm surprised that the devs didn't go that route sense one of the reasons why Hatred is famous/infamous is because it was controversial