Torture and Morality

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Deleted

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Jul 25, 2009
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Torture can be justified if you're trying to get info, my rules of torture are simple:

1. Don't do permanent damage or they'll cut their losses and not say anything
2. Make them think that you will give them something nice if they tell you accurate info.

Though I think torture machines are bordering on insane, something like a beating until he talks is more in my alley. No hammers on the fingers, or electric volts to the nipples no no.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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vivaldiscool said:
Only a moral absolutest would contest that torture is ethically wrong ll the time. Someone who is against torture either hasn't thought the implications of that stance all the way through. Or disagrees with it on a more practical standpoint such as lack of reliability.

PS: I don't think I've ever seen a post of yours that wasn't made of win Therumancer
I'm not going to get involved with this torture debate but I do want to point something out.

Ethics and morality are completely different things. Morality might be apart of ethics but ethics is not morality.
 

Undeed

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May 22, 2008
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We shouldn't need to resort to torture. Interrogation should be more than sufficient, especially with the advanced methods intelligence agencies must have developed in the forty or so years torture has been banned by various agrreements, treaties, and conventions.

dodo1331 said:
Not torturing terrorists.. Do you think that will work? How else will we get information from them? Becoming friends with them?
Actually, it's been found that treating insurgents like people after they are captured has remarkable effects on their cooperation with anything. US Troops were able to locate a terrorist base after finding a prisoner was diabetic and offering him sugar free snacks. We aren't dealing with soldiers here, just people who are fed up with being walked on.

dodo1331 said:
We are in a war.
This is not a valid excuse for anything, ever. It is a trump card that shouldn't work and yet is played near constantly. The first time you do something, under any circumstances, it becomes easier to do. Especially if it's done out of a sense of necessity or survival. What's worse, the statements that follow are little more than inflamitory rhetoric meant to cowe dissenters by striking them with fear. Want to guess what that's called?

The war on terror is an awful idea anyway. It's so easy for them to hurt us because they don't look at body counts or soldiers or leaders. Every time we have to invent a new security procedure because of a terrorist attack, successful or no, they've just won one. Their objective is to immobilize us in fear or, if that proves impossible, security systems so we need never fear. Better than hurting people for information would be to try and figure out why they want to blow us up and work on that. Some of them are just crazy, I know, but most of them have simply been misled.
 

Jedoro

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Jun 28, 2009
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LaBambaMan said:
Jedoro said:
LaBambaMan said:
Jedoro said:
LaBambaMan said:
Jedoro said:
Torture is inefficient because the tortured might say anything to get it to stop, and if bad enough, he or (God forbid) she might believe it themselves, thus removing your chance to get the truth.
See the Spanish Inquisition....wait for it....waaaaiiit for it...
Aw, come on, man, I said inefficient, not a complete failure. Body of Lies has a good view on it. I think that's what it's called, the one with Russell Crowe and Leonardo DiCaprio.
You have the correct movie title, but I believe we're having two vastly different conversations. I was trying to make a not-so-witty-or-clever Monty Python joke happen.
Dammit! Someone missed a joke I made earlier, and I chuckled on the inside, and then I go and do the same thing.
Maybe we're just not that good at this game.
It's alright, we'll find one we can own some face in, eventually.
 

Akai Shizuku

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Jul 24, 2009
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624 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
624 said:
Sun Tzu, said that you should be kind to prisoners. However, if there is INDESPUTABLE evidence that a prisoner is hiding something that could be usfull to your cause, I'm all for it.
I agree with Sun Tzu on the matter.

I don't like torture, I really don't like it. I was playing this game (http://forums.blitwise.com/forums/showthread.php?t=841), and I was given a mission to torture a building owner in order to retrieve the possessions they stole from someone else. I just couldn't do it. I mean, I taped their mouth up, turned on the car battery, but I just can't do that.
I also dislike torture, but I think it should only be used in the most desperate times. I'm also sure there is some non-violent torture (even if it sounds like a stupid oxymoron).
=D PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE IS FUN!
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Ultrajoe said:
Therumancer said:
this guy knows, because he knows who the players are and where pieces are that a pawn like you doesn't even know are on the board.

That's how it's done.
Forgive my ignorance, I don't pretend to possess any great level of intelligence; but if you already know exactly what the right answers are, why do you need to torture somebody?
He doesn't know everything, simply enough information to put what is being extracted into context. It's like this.

We pick up some dude and torture him, we want to know who is on the terror team. The guy decides to BS and drops some names of people that don't exist. We know enough to say that there are no such people. He then drops the names of some people that are out there but not active in this area or on this team figuring he'd use partial information to throw us off. But he mentions like Achemed Bin Allah, and we know that we've got Achemed Bin Allah in the cell down the hall, or we've got an agent watching him in Turkey so we can rule that out.

Eventually the intelligence guy is going to be able to figure out the truth based on what fits the pieces he already has. He doesn't KNOW what the guy does beforehand, just information about the intelligence situation in general. It's like a giant puzzle, he's got part of it made, and is extracting some of the missing pieces from this guy, and he can tell which ones aren't going to fit when the colors don't match up. :)

Otherwise in context of your other response (which I just read) yes, it appears we will have to agree to disagree.
 

Sparkytheyetti

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Jul 24, 2009
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JimmyBassatti said:
Sparkytheyetti said:
Give me 2 days and about 50 feet of rope. Ill make you talk. And no mutilations or disfigurements of any kind.
Do tell?
The average human body can strech to atleast 15% of our *Normal* operating capacity. In otherwords that beer you lift to your chin? How bout i take your arm and continue that bend.

As for the rope. Their called stress positions. Take your arms and lift the above your head. Now hold it for 3 hours. The rope is for eveytime that they touch it, you give em a little smack in the head or something. Nothing horrible just a love tap essentially. Getting my drift? The average person will crack within 2 days. I've done a couple on some friends of mine because they didnt beleive me. My buddy did 3 stress positions in 3 hours, lets just say i know everything about his sister now. :)
 

Sparkytheyetti

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Jul 24, 2009
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Exactly. Most people today due to television and whatnot are not as *hard* in the head a we used to be. Just look at the standards of society. Health is falling, National IQ is falling, were becoming a world of idiots. And we dont care about ourselves as people anymore. So naturally the mind weakens. This is just some little things that go along with it.
 

Gigawolf1

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Jun 17, 2009
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I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the whole 'torture' thing. On the one hand, I have mild psychopathic impulses. On the other, I imagine anything I might do to another person as being done to myself. Both only apply in theoretical situations; in real life I am neither murderous nor sympathetic.

Maybe I just don't know enough about the intelligence-gathering business, but I get the feeling that it's one of the more over-played aspects of getting what you want. Kind of like how cars don't always blow up at the slightest provocation.



I don't imagine suicide bombers would have a high pain tolerance. Just a thought.

Hell, you don't have to break a single one of my fingers for me to tell you I saw who really shot JFK.
I have reason to believe it was a mongoose. I also have reason to believe that the grassy knoll was a tyrannosaurus rex in disguise. The reason is that I'm insane.
 

Brett Alex

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Jul 22, 2008
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Real Gonzo said:
I'd say they have to try everything to ensure safety of their countries. The morality was almost meaningless back then, I don't understand why there are many key words being repeated, inhumane, cruel and sadistic. I'm sure the majority of undeveloped nations use extreme torture as punishment.
So why are we fighting then? If the morality of it doesn't matter, why are we enemies?
 

tayla_88

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Jul 29, 2009
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I am, perhaps, not in the proper state of mind to be replying to this thread, and I am aware that this is the case, so I would like to apologize in advance for any rudeness.

Therumancer, I respect the fact that you can state your opinions so plainly, I really do. That said, I cannot help but become irritated when someone represents their opinions as fact, laying only a thin veil of modesty over their statements to avoid seeming full of themselves. From what I can see, such seems to be the case here; you only referred to your opinions as such at the beginning and end of your post, and they are portrayed in a highbrow manner which seems to imply that any conflicting opinions are the result of complete ignorance of the subject matter. Because of this, I feel it is necessary to offer a detailed, informed and contradictory post to introduce some semblance of balance to this thread.

I'll be responding to each of your points individually, but to save time, I will attempt to be relatively concise. The point I most strongly wish to debate is, conveniently, the first; you state that "Torture, the act of intentionally inflicting pain on another person to coerce them to do something is neither inherantly good or bad. Like any other tool it all comes down to how it is employed and why." First, I would like to point out that torture is an action, while anything that can accurately be described as a tool is an object -i.e., to torture is to perform the act of torturing someone while, say, a gun is an object. The act of intentionally inflicting pain on someone, regardless of the reason, is inherently bad, which is why most sane people are hesitant to resort to such methods themselves. That said, there are situations in which there is no 'right choice', and you are forced to put your morals aside for a while for 'the greater good'. It takes either a person of great resolve, a disgustingly gullible person, or a person who had no morals to begin with to make such a choice. In that sort of situation, torture is still wrong, but the results may be preferable over those of other options.

The "classic example" you describe in your second paragraph is actually entirely accurate with regards to the process. That is, a person is subjected to horrible pain and/or terror, and provides information (hopefully the information you're looking for) in the hopes that the pain will stop, at which point the torture theoretically ends. In wartime, however, people learn to stop thinking of the opposition as people, and think of them only as 'the enemy', which makes the decision to commit cruel and inhumane acts that much easier, so the torture almost inevitably continues. This mindset is necessary, unfortunately, because if soldiers thought about the opposition as people on the battlefield, most would have a much harder time bringing themselves to kill them. The 'wicked authority figure torturing an innocent man' description from your example seems a tad ostentatious, however.

Somewhat surprisingly, your next few points are relatively sensible, though the opinions you portray as the only alternatives are just as absurd as I've come to expect. I say that your points are only relatively sensible because of this, and because you continue to suggest that under the right circumstances, torture is just as acceptable as going to the grocer. (I apologize if absurd exaggerations are intended to be exclusively your domain, but I really couldn't resist.) I feel it is worthy of note that only very seldom do you know what the consequences will be should you not torture someone, while the consequences if you do are obvious; you will have tortured someone who may or may not know something useful to you, and if their information is useful, it could save and/or end any number of lives.

Now, I must apologize, but I'm not entirely clear on what you're trying to say in the next couple points; all I'm really seeing are a mess of run on sentences and something about kidnapping rings and lives being at stake, but I'll try to give a decent response. First, as far as I can tell, you disregard the possibility of people dying if a "terrorist" (gods, do I love the irony of the label) is tortured. You also, once again, try to claim that if most people would resort to torture under certain circumstances, or if torturing someone ends up saving lives, it must be/have been perfectly alright. The fact of the matter is, we do not know what will happen as a result of torturing someone, besides the fact that we'll have tortured them, beforehand. That, once again, is why it should be difficult to make that decision: you could be torturing someone for no reason. The whole idea of "the end justifying the means" is just a pathetic attempt to convince yourself that there's nothing to feel guilty about if the information uncovered saves someone's life.

Finally, in situations where someone would resort to torture, they do almost inevitably kill the subject, unless there is outside intervention, in which case the person will still spend the rest of their existence in a hole with very few exceptions. Second, you're starting to wander into very strange territory where torture is considered a service or kindness as the result of some strange sort of logic that I have to admit I can't really comprehend. I suppose, as far as that goes, that if the people being subjected to that sort of treatment shared those beliefs, then that's their prerogative, though I can't really imagine that the people performing those... rites? rituals? ...wouldn't feel some amount of guilt, except for (going back to what I said earlier) people with very strong faith, a.k.a. very gullible people. Though I would once again like to point out that people's minds (most people's minds anyway) aren't so simple that they can only think either that it's perfectly alright to torture people or that having coffee with a person they know has someone tied to the bottom of a bus is a good idea. Also, torturing convicts would be a useless endeavor (and, as you say, easily abused), especially considering the fact that "convicted" is not always synonymous with "guilty". Since I'm getting tired of typing, I'll end with this: If you're a bus driver and you call in sick, and the guy intended to cover for you drives off a cliff and kills 30 people, that's not your fault. If you torture local drug dealers or whatever on the off chance he's a customer, that is your fault. The same principle applies. And you don't know that a person knows something. Ever. You only know that they could know something or are in a position to know something. It would be perfectly reasonable to feel guilty if 50 people die and you didn't get information that could have saved them, but it would be unreasonable to claim that it's your fault for not torturing someone for, as far as you would have realistically known at the time, no reason. The issue here seems to be, and pardon me if I'm overstepping my bounds, that either your ethics professor or you (the latter seems more likely) have confused ethics and statistics. (It's actually rather disturbing how your arguments, or rather, argument places so much emphasis on numbers, and on assuming that everyone magically knows the end result of every action they take.) In fact, the assumptions and the way your scenarios are described sound almost exactly like something out of a textbook. That is to say, they assume there is one answer, that answer is right, and it is right because the author of the book says so, etc. That said, this "morality by the numbers" system you refer to seems reasonable enough as a pocket guide for sociopaths* that have an interest in being "good", so long as I assume that the disgusting over-generalization, over-valuing of outside opinion and claims that whatever choice is the least harmful to others is "right" are all gross misinterpretations of the original idea on the part of either you or the author of your textbook.

I'm going to stop here, (finally) partly because my hands hurt, but mostly because I've realized that my post was starting to get a bit hostile towards the end.

*This is not intended as a personal attack. I'm referring to the fact (I would assume) that such a simplified 'guide' on what appears morally acceptable would be useful for someone who is unable to understand less concrete concepts such as guilt and empathy, has an inability to distinguish right from wrong, etc. It isn't perfect though, but really, nothing is.
 

tayla_88

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Jul 29, 2009
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Also, holy crap. 12 posts made while I was typing, and that evidently means I was at it for 4 hours or so... X( I really need to get a life, eh? And again, I didn't intend to be rude, but I know I can get pretty mean in this sort of thread, so... sorry again.

PS: And... This is the part where I realize I just replied to a 2 year old post, and that I look like a complete ass. If I hadn't spent so much time on that post, I'd just clear it and stick in a lolcat pic or something. (dunno if I can do that. don't think so.)
 

New Troll

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Mar 26, 2009
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Therumancer said:
New Troll said:
Torture is inhumane and still unlikely to get the results you're truly after. Hell, you don't have to break a single one of my fingers for me to tell you I saw who really shot JFK. And I'm sure the more joints you snap, the more detail I'll recall about her. You'll feel a little silly knocking down Paris Hilton's door afterwards though.

You apparently didn't read my post in detail.
I did read your post. But like I said, just because I know something, doesn't mean you're going to get that information out of me from torture. And the more torture you do, the easier it's going to be for the lie to become reality. It's all in the details.

Cute story though. Only issue with it is Paris Hilton wasn't even alive during the time. Hence your silliness from my example.