Transgender People and Attraction OR The Inherent Homophobia in Society

[Ashannon Blackthorn]

I guess I view it as this. If you're attracted to a trans person of whatever gender, fine. Ditto if you don't care and it's even fine if you don't. I find a lot of trans people tend to want everyone around them to treat them special and immediately cry transphobia if people don't do it.

So the OP basically said that people don't want to date transfolk due to inherent trans and homo phobias in society.

Probably. As you know what? As a gay male myself I find that perfectly fine. As long ads certain lines are not crossed (aka anti trans/gay laws, open abuse, repression or the like) people are free ot think and act how they want. Just as a trans person has every right to seen and be legally recognized as how they want to be, other people have the right to not want to date them and not be told they're bad people.

To be blunt, trans folk are a goddamn small minority and while they shall not be oppressed by the majority, they do not have the right to dictate to the majority how ot act or think. I feel the same way about any minority/majority situation. Sadly, with all the emphasis on rights and the massive sense of self-entitlement of most people nowadays, it's common to have someone who is transexual claim transphobia the minute anyone does or says anything the trans person does not approve of.

EDIT: As for the what to call someone debate, I agree with George Carlin. "If someone wants me to call them an obese African American of the homosexual persuasion, fine. If they want me to call them a fat n****r cock-sucker, then fine. If they want me to call them Gerry, fine."

 

[Metanar]

Because I've yet to see a tanswoman that looks even slightly attractive to me, sexually. Hell, I'm known as the guy with really low standards for women, so it's not like I'm expecting a super model like half my friends are. Not that I've met any transgender people my age. Also, I've never seen an artificial vagina, but I highly doubt they look like the real thing, or work the same. Artificial body parts rarely work as well as the real ones. People can do what they want, but when it comes to what I want to stick my dick in, tramswomen are not on the list (currently, anyhow, maybe when technology advances more).

This entire post is pure ignorance in text form. You've never seen an attractive transwoman? You clearly just haven't looked. And artificial vaginas look and function exactly like real ones, if you'd taken two seconds to look that up before spurting misinformation you'd know that.

[/quote]

I guess I view it as this. If you're attracted to a trans person of whatever gender, fine. Ditto if you don't care and it's even fine if you don't. I find a lot of trans people tend to want everyone around them to treat them special and immediately cry transphobia if people don't do it.

So the OP basically said that people don't want to date transfolk due to inherent trans and homo phobias in society.

Probably. As you know what? As a gay male myself I find that perfectly fine. As long ads certain lines are not crossed (aka anti trans/gay laws, open abuse, repression or the like) people are free ot think and act how they want. Just as a trans person has every right to seen and be legally recognized as how they want to be, other people have the right to not want to date them and not be told they're bad people.

To be blunt, trans folk are a goddamn small minority and while they shall not be oppressed by the majority, they do not have the right to dictate to the majority how ot act or think. I feel the same way about any minority/majority situation. Sadly, with all the emphasis on rights and the massive sense of self-entitlement of most people nowadays, it's common to have someone who is transexual claim transphobia the minute anyone does or says anything the trans person does not approve of.

This reeks to me of general belittlement of the issues faced by trans people. It's one thing for someone to be immature and say "No, I won't date you because I have some ill-conceived notion of a permanent, biological gender", and it's another for people to stand up and purposefully belittle how serious being a trans person is. The condition we suffer has left me on the brink of suicide numerous times and only now after having come out publicly am I starting to crawl out of that hole. It's serious, and no matter what your "opinion" on trans people is, you need to show respect to them as they've suffered enough in their lifetime without people antagonising them as several people in this thread have done so far.(Not you personally, although you clearly don't understand the hardship since you pulled the "people cry abuse too often" card)

 

[spartan231490]

We haven't evolved being turned off by the fact there is a connection to maleness. That'd be ridiculous, our bodies aren't really that complex, we like certain things, and if that thing ticks the boxes then whoopdy-do! Our bodies don't care about a remote connection to male-os-itude, they just like breasts! (or vaginas or high-voices or whatever reason the body is attracted to women).

Have you ever studied psychology of attraction, because it's far far far more complicated than you seem to realize. There are dozens of psychological factors that effect attraction beyond physical appearance.

OT: I have no idea whether or not I would sleep with a transgender person. I have never encountered anything even close to that situation. If I had to guess I would say no because I would find it impossible to relate to them.

 

[Biosophilogical]

What I don't understand is the desire to change your physical appearance. It seems odd to assume that a gender is somehow related to what junk you have. Why does your inward feeling need to be matched by an arbitrary physical quality? If you like dresses and make-up, and you want to carry a purse and act feminine, how does having a penis stop that? And the same to women, how does having boobs stop you acting in accordance to socially recognised 'manliness'? I never realised a penis was vital to manual labour (and there are no doubt many women in manual labour roles who would agree with me).

It seems a deeper problem is the idea of gender at all; that not only are sexually related traits associated with certain dispositions and actions, but the idea that they, for whatever reason, should be associated. I mean, if there were no gender stereotypes, why would you get a sex change? There would be personality types, and there would be completely unrelated biological classifications, beyond a girl really wanting to have a 'penis role' in sex, or a guy really wanting to have boobs (without being overweight), there wouldn't be a reason to feel like "A man/woman trapped in a woman/man's body"

 

[manic_depressive13]

I don't think I could be attracted to someone who was so insecure, displeased or succeptible to the gender roles of society that they felt compelled to undergo surgery to their private parts, take hormone supplements, and just do a lot of things I consider extreme in order to change who they once were. I can't really understand it and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I just can't empathise with the desire to perform body modifications in general. Tattoos, facial piercings, tongue splitting- I don't really like any of those things. Not to say there aren't times when I think it looks really cool. They might be attractive, but they're not the kinds of people I would want to enter a relationship with because I can't help but feel their risk assessment and decision making skills are impaired.

 

[epialesofaergia]

The only qualm I think I would have with dating a transgendered person is the high risk of psychological side effects from gender reassignment without therapy (assuming the newly-designated she would refuse to seek it). I would probably equate this to dating a drug addict refusing treatment. If a person were to live the majority of his life getting used to acting like a female with his male genitalia, it would be hard to predict how he would react after gender reassignment surgery as it might provide an unforeseen shock to his gender identity.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

I honestly wouldnt ever want to be in a relationship with a transgender person, I think my health teacher put it in good terms, you can change your gender, but you cant change your sex (Or was it the other way around?). Its their life decision and i wish them happiness, its just I wouldnt want to have sex or be romantically involved with someone who is biologically a man

 

[Slayer_2]

This entire post is pure ignorance in text form. You've never seen an attractive transwoman? You clearly just haven't looked. And artificial vaginas look and function exactly like real ones, if you'd taken two seconds to look that up before spurting misinformation you'd know that.

First off, even though I state that I supposedly have low standards, you really have no idea what I do or do not find attractive, nor how many transgender people I have met. I will give you that this city is not exactly a haven for transgender people, so my selection is quite low (and mostly FtM).

Second, my use of the word "vagina" may have been the wrong word, if you insist on being precise, I am referring to the entire female reproductive system in general. Including ovaries, uterus, etc. Can a transwoman reproduce? No. Do they menstruate? No. Different? Yes. And I stick to my belief that medical science has not yet progressed enough for convincing surgical enhancements/modifications. I've seen some plastic surgery nightmares, I'd be amazed if an internalized penis could look convincing enough for me to get it up.

Again, I'll state that I have no disrespect for transgender people, I just don't want to screw them. You can respect that or continue being an ass, I don't really care either way.

 

[Chicago Ted]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, a transwoman =/= a real woman. They will remain a transwoman for a couple major reasons.

1) The inability to bear children themselves due to the missing parts

2) The lack of XX chromosomes

Now, you can dress it up all you like, but the fact is to me, they are still not true women.

Not to say that I'm against this or anything, or the process, or people changing their gender, but to me a transwoman still doesn't classify as a real woman. If at some point they are able to have the ability to have children themselves and the gain the proper chromosomes, then I may reclassify, but until then I can not call them a real woman.

And don't take this as transophobic or whatever it was you were calling it. To me, this is just fact. They may no longer be a man, but they have not really become a woman. Because of this, I would personally not seek to have a relationship with the individual.

So they ability to have children and DNA are more important to you than how a person identifies and looks, and in fact all of the other qualities that a human being may possess? Honestly I pity you because that is incredibly stupid and immature.

Other than that you used the word gender incorrectly, gender of course referring to the entirely internal identity one sustains, whereas sex would have been appropriate (sex being the external identity that everyone can see).

You also said that you weren't transphobic, except, get this, you are quite literally the definition of transphobic as you are in fact demonstrating prejudice against trans people by not treating them exactly the same as people of the sex that they identify as.

Now, not at once did I say that "DNA is more important than how a person identifies", I said that's how I define it. To me, a transwoman is not the same as a real woman because of the biological differences that still exist. No matter how much you want, on a biological level, it is impossible to currently make that change. And as I said, if that changes, so may my view on the issue, but until it does, they will stay set.

Also, my rationality does not come from a hatred or fear of the subject. It comes from a scientific perspective on it. No matter how much kicking and screaming is done on it, there is no denying that the biological differences still remain, and because of that, it is a different classification to me.

Say you took two lizards, a red and a green, each with different sets of genes that make them what they are. No matter what you do to the red lizard to make it green, change the pigment of its skin, make its tail match the other, whatever, to me, it's still a red lizard that has been made to look green unless it is able to be changed from the core. (I know this may not be the best example, but I'm sleepy and have an exam tomorrow that I've been fried studying for)

My view boils down to only that.

Now, why I wouldn't date an individual such as this boils down as well to the part on children. If and when I want to have kids, I want them naturally with my partner. I would not like to have to jump through hoops or go through a variety of alternative methods to have them. Also, it's based on the fact that honestly, I don't think I could even see myself hook up with one regardless if your reaction to this situation is anything to go by. If someone were to jump down my throat like that based only for a view I held, they would not be the type of person I believe I would want to spent large amounts of my time with.

And also, yes, I may have mistaken the terms, sorry, this isn't an area that I'm completely familiar with.

And fine, go ahead and call me a transphobic or whatever if you want. Go ahead and slander me more for the views I have and the arguments I make. You know what I hope?

I hope you're happy with your lifestyle choices and the decisions you make. I that wherever you identify, it is where you feel you belong and where you feel like you should be. I will not stand in your way, or call you a freak or anything because of them.

Just know that if you ask me out, I'll turn you down. Same as I would for a guy, or even a girl that for example, had tattoos on her faces or something. I'll let you make your choices without comment, now let me make mine.

 

[Chicago Ted]

This entire post is pure ignorance in text form. You've never seen an attractive transwoman? You clearly just haven't looked. And artificial vaginas look and function exactly like real ones, if you'd taken two seconds to look that up before spurting misinformation you'd know that.

First off, even though I state that I supposedly have low standards, you really have no idea what I do or do not find attractive, nor how many transgender people I have met. I will give you that this city is not exactly a haven for transgender people, so my selection is quite low (and mostly FtM).

Second, my use of the word "vagina" may have been the wrong word, if you insist on being precise, I am referring to the entire female reproductive system in general. Including ovaries, uterus, etc. Can a transwoman reproduce? No. Do they menstruate? No. Different? Yes. And I stick to my belief that medical science has not yet progressed enough for convincing surgical enhancements/modifications. I've seen some plastic surgery nightmares, I'd be amazed if an internalized penis could look convincing enough for me to get it up.

Again, I'll state that I have no disrespect for transgender people, I just don't want to screw them. You can respect that or continue being an ass, I don't really care either way.

And I have to agree with most of what this guy is saying as well.

Metanar, I know you'll read this post as well, so I'll also add on the fact that in over 95% of these cases, something looks 'off' to me about the transwoman. The main thing I'm seeing is a nose that looks too big, and a jaw that seems too wide. But those are broad observations.

*Don't take this as absolute though. My field of knowledge other than one individual I know personally, comes mostly from some time spent surfing through Google Images and a couple websites.

On top of that as well though, I do understand how you could go through several surgeries to make it as close to possible, but then a different issue would be raised with me. I'd be turned off by the fact that they went through all the surgeries to look that way.

 

[Doctor Glocktor]

I'm simply not mature enough for a relationship of that level.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

Honestly, I have nothing against transgenders, but I am attracted to natural born women. Aside from the fact that I want kids someday, and I am attract to women because I have been for my entire life, I'm comfortable and confident in being straight, and I have never questioned my sexuality or found it necessary to experiment with other sexual preferences.

I know what I want and it's a woman born a woman and nothing more. Some people might be comfortable dating anyone that they feel a strong connection to or if they fulfill their pleasures and expectations in one way or another, and all I can say is that I hope for the best for them and that they find happiness.

 

[isometry]

And I have to agree with most of what this guy is saying as well.

Metanar, I know you'll read this post as well, so I'll also add on the fact that in over 95% of these cases, something looks 'off' to me about the transwoman. The main thing I'm seeing is a nose that looks too big, and a jaw that seems too wide. But those are broad observations.

*Don't take this as absolute though. My field of knowledge other than one individual I know personally, comes mostly from some time spent surfing through Google Images and a couple websites.

On top of that as well though, I do understand how you could go through several surgeries to make it as close to possible, but then a different issue would be raised with me. I'd be turned off by the fact that they went through all the surgeries to look that way.

That's a reasonable opinion based on the information you've seen, and there's nothing wrong with choosing a mate based physical appearance.

Your figure of "95%" made me want to raise a point, which is that for obvious reasons many transwomen who pass completely choose to live in "stealth", breaking ties with contacts that knew their old identity and not telling people about that part of themselves.

Estimates that include these women (based on medical statistics) put the prevalence of post-op TS women in the US at 1:500 - 1:2500, and transition without SRS at 1:200 - 1:1000. Since you can't see genitals in public, this means at least as many as 1 in 1000 "females" is a TG transitioner, and as many as 1 in 200 have that status. Reference.

 

[Terminal Blue]

2) The lack of XX chromosomes.

You've already said your piece, but just for the sake of everyone else.

Chromosome configuration is not what makes you male or female. It's perfectly possible to be born as a completely "perfect" (albeit infertile) female with an Y chromosome, or as "perfect" (albeit infertile) male with an XX chromosome configuration. What makes you male or female at birth is your external genital morphology, which is generally recorded by a medical professional at your birth and on your birth certificate.

Another thing worth bearing in mind is that in an estimated 1 in every 100 births there is some degree of visible intersexuality (inspecific genitalia) and in extreme cases its relatively common to surgically alter someone's genitals to conform more closely with a female (or more rarely, a male) appearance. Accidents in infancy and early childhood can also result in reassignment, particularly for boys who lose a significant length of their penises somehow.

People put far more weight on that decision than is necessary, it's really not as clear or discreet or easy as popular opinion would have you believe. At the end of the day, it comes down entirely to what you look like, and whether your genitals are regarded as a "good enough" replica of a male and female ideal than some kind of innate essence which comes out of the womb with you.

I think my health teacher put it in good terms, you can change your gender, but you cant change your sex (Or was it the other way around?).

Your health teacher was wrong.

You can change your gender easily. You could do it right now if you wanted and had the right clothes.

Also, the only genuine measure of your sex is the box on your birth certificate. That can be legally changed (and in some cases has to be legally changed). Since it's only decided by a doctor looking at your genitals anyway, it's really no big deal to change it.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

I don't think I could be attracted to someone who was so insecure, displeased or succeptible to the gender roles of society that they felt compelled to undergo surgery to their private parts, take hormone supplements, and just do a lot of things I consider extreme in order to change who they once were. I can't really understand it and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I just can't empathise with the desire to perform body modifications in general. Tattoos, facial piercings, tongue splitting- I don't really like any of those things. Not to say there aren't times when I think it looks really cool. They might be attractive, but they're not the kinds of people I would want to enter a relationship with because I can't help but feel their risk assessment and decision making skills are impaired.

I get your dislike in body alterations (I personally wouldn't date a woman who has too many piercings or tattoos), but the concept of changing genders is much deeper than self-esteem issues and a nose job. It's an internal dilemma that one faces in the sense that they know and feel one way while their body tells them otherwise. Essentially the whole "a woman trapped in a man's body" dilemma.

Many of these individuals live their whole lives as people they don't want to be and rather live out the roles that they were dealt with. Sometimes people go as far as to label them as homosexuals when their attraction to men is completely natural were they born in a woman's body.

The process of changing genders is not an easy one, and many people run into complications. Some even come to a conclusion that their 'body' could not handle the dramatic changes and are therefore 'stuck' in a body they dislike. So I applaud those who take the risk of reaching their ideal self and becoming the person that they know will make themselves happy.

 

[skullduggery]

I find it interesting that a number of anti-trans comment on how insecure trans people are. They aren't a man who turns into a woman. They're a woman initially trapped in a man's body who then turns into a woman. When someone says "Being a woman (in the case of transwomen) is more than skin deep, thus trans =/= woman" ARE saying gender is only skin deep, or at least genitals-deep. It seems few want to take into account the feelings of someone who underwent that surgery and all it's other processes.

OP: Yeah, it probably does have a bit to do with homophobia and "manliness." I would say more so it has to do with enforcement of gender roles though.

A more interesting question would be: if you were a male, dating a female, and you were in a great relationship; then suddenly about a year into it she says a few years ago she got the surgery, would you break the relationship off?

 

[omicron1]

I define people's gender by their genes, thank you very much. For the same reason I would not consider a person in a fox suit to be remotely canine, no matter how enthusiastic they are, or how convinced they are that they really are a fox, no really, it's what we are inside that counts, I will not consider a person in many thousands of dollars' worth of plastic surgery to be remotely female/male when their genes say otherwise.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I get your dislike in body alterations (I personally wouldn't date a woman who has too many piercings or tattoos), but the concept of changing genders is much deeper than self-esteem issues and a nose job. It's an internal dilemma that one faces in the sense that they know and feel one way while their body tells them otherwise. Essentially the whole "a woman trapped in a man's body" dilemma.

Many of these individuals live their whole lives as people they don't want to be and rather live out the roles that they were dealt with. Sometimes people go as far as to label them as homosexuals when their attraction to men is completely natural were they born in a woman's body.

The process of changing genders is not an easy one, and many people run into complications. Some even come to a conclusion that their 'body' could not handle the dramatic changes and are therefore 'stuck' in a body they dislike. So I applaud those who take the risk of reaching their ideal self and becoming the person that they know will make themselves happy.

Yeah, but I think that modifying your body instead of simply fighting to change society's perception of gender is sort of insane, and the wrong way to go about it. If they are men who are attracted to other men then they are indeed homosexual, and they would be better off embracing that than validating societies pereption that two men being together is wrong, therefore they should become women. We need to erase society's perception of what is "feminine" or "masculine", not conform to it by having risky surgery performed.

Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding the notions and reasons of transgender people, but that's exactly the point. Love is born from understanding, and I just don't understand it. I am open to the idea of a relationship with either sex, so it's not that I'm repulsed by some idea that "in reality they are still a man/woman". They just confuse me in the same way people who feel compelled to get cosmetic surgery to make their breasts or penis larger confuse me.