Transgender Q & A

[an annoyed writer]

, if i can accept them and let them have their view on the matter, why can't i get the same courtesy?

Because somehow you got it into your head that not accepting a trans person as the gender and sex they transitioned to is somehow accepting them.

Pretty much this. That's more along the lines of tolerance, and tolerance is bullshit. When you tolerate someone you're basically saying "I think what you are is wrong, but I'm not going to outright antagonize you about it". That's passive-aggressive bullshit, and it's exactly what we don't want. We want acceptance.

 

[Kathinka]

, if i can accept them and let them have their view on the matter, why can't i get the same courtesy?

Because somehow you got it into your head that not accepting a trans person as the gender and sex they transitioned to is somehow accepting them.

i accept their choices and that they live as the gender they identify as. but biological gender still matters to me. is that really so despicable?

 

[Kathinka]

, if i can accept them and let them have their view on the matter, why can't i get the same courtesy?

Because somehow you got it into your head that not accepting a trans person as the gender and sex they transitioned to is somehow accepting them.

Pretty much this. That's more along the lines of tolerance, and tolerance is bullshit. When you tolerate someone you're basically saying "I think what you are is wrong, but I'm not going to outright antagonize you about it". That's passive-aggressive bullshit, and it's exactly what we don't want. We want acceptance.

i don't think what they do is wrong, quiet the opposite actually. i think they should pursue this goal and should be able to live their lives in a way that makes them happy and feel comfortable with themselves without discrimination.
so i don't get why some transgender people are so intolerant of my view of the biological sex being the decisive factor in as what gender i myself identify people as.

just as a mtf transgender has the right to see himself as a girl, i have the right to seem him as a guy.

 

[VoEC]

, if i can accept them and let them have their view on the matter, why can't i get the same courtesy?

Because somehow you got it into your head that not accepting a trans person as the gender and sex they transitioned to is somehow accepting them.

i accept their choices and that they live as the gender they identify as. but biological gender still matters to me. is that really so despicable?

As an annoyed writer said, that's not really accepting but rather tolerating trans people.
But that's your own decision and doesn't bother me.

But I want to adress one thing. This is not really adressed at you personally but I read it a lot and just want to give my thoughts about it.
Being transgender (and to an extend starting transitioning) is not a choice!
Just as being born with a sort of birht defect (for example) is not a choice, as a trans person you don't really decide if you want to be male or female.
Speaking from personal experience the only real choice I had was either living as a woman or killing myself, which is not much of a choice.

 

[an annoyed writer]

i don't think what they do is wrong, quiet the opposite actually. i think they should pursue this goal and should be able to live their lives in a way that makes them happy and feel comfortable with themselves without discrimination.
so i don't get why some transgender people are so intolerant of my view of the biological sex being the decisive factor in as what gender i myself identify people as.

just as a mtf transgender has the right to see himself as a girl, i have the right to seem him as a guy.

That is a powerful display of cognitive dissonance right here. You say that that you accept someone and support what they do, yet you still refer to them as their birth sex? That spits on the entire point of the transitional process. The entire point is to not only accept yourself for what you are, but be seen and accepted as who you really are.

Let's take this into a hypothetical future here: let's say that everything has finally been ironed out, and in this future we have gotten down to the genetic level and can recode people into fully functional members of the other sex. A transwoman would be virtually identical to a ciswoman: they look, behave, and sound like members of their desired sex. The transwoman in this scenario can give birth, menstruate, and do everything, for better or worse, that a natural-born ciswoman can. Is it right to call her a man, due to her transgendered background? At this point she doesn't even share a genetic code with her birth sex, let alone any other characteristics. I don't think it's anywhere near right.

The point being here that my generation is one of prototypes and trailblazers. By calling us by our birth sex you are impeding social progress: I am not a man. I don't look, act, smell, feel, think, or work like one, and while I may have a chromosome in common with them, that's where the relationship ends. By calling me a man, and treating me like one, you are discriminating against me, impeding the social progress you claim to support, and in the process making the future that much harder for our successors. Think about the long-term repercussions of your actions.

 

[Kathinka]

i don't think what they do is wrong, quiet the opposite actually. i think they should pursue this goal and should be able to live their lives in a way that makes them happy and feel comfortable with themselves without discrimination.
so i don't get why some transgender people are so intolerant of my view of the biological sex being the decisive factor in as what gender i myself identify people as.

just as a mtf transgender has the right to see himself as a girl, i have the right to seem him as a guy.

That is a powerful display of cognitive dissonance right here. You say that that you accept someone and support what they do, yet you still refer to them as their birth sex? That spits on the entire point of the transitional process. The entire point is to not only accept yourself for what you are, but be seen and accepted as who you really are.

Let's take this into a hypothetical future here: let's say that everything has finally been ironed out, and in this future we have gotten down to the genetic level and can recode people into fully functional members of the other sex. A transwoman would be virtually identical to a ciswoman: they look, behave, and sound like members of their desired sex. The transwoman in this scenario can give birth, menstruate, and do everything, for better or worse, that a natural-born ciswoman can. Is it right to call her a man, due to her transgendered background? At this point she doesn't even share a genetic code with her birth sex, let alone any other characteristics. I don't think it's anywhere near right.

The point being here that my generation is one of prototypes and trailblazers. By calling us by our birth sex you are impeding social progress: I am not a man. I don't look, act, smell, feel, think, or work like one, and while I may have a chromosome in common with them, that's where the relationship ends. By calling me a man, and treating me like one, you are discriminating against me, impeding the social progress you claim to support, and in the process making the future that much harder for our successors. Think about the long-term repercussions of your actions.

if we would ever get to that point where we could do that, i would certainly have to revalue that viewpoint, i'll admit that. we aren't there yet though.
the main reason i think that way is actually a point you adressed in your post:
you say you think like a woman. so, that raises the question: how do you know how a (biological) woman thinks?
i'm not a neurologist or any other sort of professional on the matter. however, i have talked to one once about the subject. men and woman think and experience things in a pretty different way, right down to an observable level in electric signals in the brain. and the way we think and experience things are largely determined by chromosomes, genetics and the hormons we are exposed to prior to birth, or in short: our biological gender. so any transgender person still thinks and functions to some level as their biological gender.

if we would really get to the point where we could change all that down to the last bits of changing the thought processes and brain functions, i could see it. but as long as transpersons still experience and process in the way of their biological gender, i somehow can't see transgender persons to be identical to cis-gender persons. (thanks for that term by the way, as i mentioned before i'm not totally familiar with the correct terminology)

 

[Kathinka]

that being said: for me, any transgender man, for example, is still a man, and a transgender woman still a woman, and vice versa. or in short: for me, the biological gender is decisive in the identification of an individual, not the self-determined gender. it's just a biological fact for me. (that is also the reason why i, although bisexual, don't find transsexuals attractive. mtf don't fit what i find attractive in a man, and mtf are just unattractive females to me).

a) We don't treat people differently based on circumstances of their birth. Or at least, we shouldn't.

b) I don't mean to sound pretentious, but you don't really know how much the male and female have in common, do you?

c) How do you know you haven't had sexual relations with a transgender perosn already? If there's a such a biological difference, there's absolutely no circumstance in which somebody could bed a post-op Male-to-Female transsexual and not know it, right? Yet it happens anyways.

now i understand that it matters to many transgender people what others think (even if it shouldn't, in my opinion, they should just do what makes them happy and don't give a toss about other peoples opinions) but i've sometimes encountered the mindset that my opinion would be wrong and intolerant. i find that a bit dickish to be honest, if i can accept them and let them have their view on the matter, why can't i get the same courtesy?

I don't think its intolerant, I think its just uninformed.

now, to the actual question i'm doing a terrible job at asking: why is this viewpoint of mine such a big deal and large problem for many members of the transgender / transsexual community (sorry, i'm not 100% familiar with the PC terminology of the subject. if i accidentally used a wrong term at any point, i meant nothing by it)

a) People who don't think critically and have knee-jerk reactions think you're a bigot

b) See reasons posted above.

c) If by now you don't understand any of the first three points, I'll ask you to refrain from citing chromosomes or internal organs. Just, no. Unless you actually screen every potential partner's chromosomes and internal organs before beginning a relationship with them, it doesn't float.

P.S. Terminology can get really tricky. Transgender is generally the most understood, and transperson is generally the most universally accepted among, well, transpeople. No matter which one you use, think of it as an umbrella term describing multiple conditions.

so i don't get why some transgender people are so intolerant of my view of the biological sex being the decisive factor in as what gender i myself identify people as.

You just used gender and sex properly, so you should understand why some people find it offensive without having anybody explain it to you.

just as a mtf transgender has the right to see himself as a girl, i have the right to seem him as a guy.

Yes, but for almost all practical intents and purposes, as well as medical science, you'd be wrong. The only practical thing you could be sacrificing that you might not have to sacrifice with a cisgender partner is quality of your sex, and quite frankly, sex toys will fix that right up for you.

sorry, i somehow overlooked that post. much of what you asked is covered in my post above directed at annoyed writer.

a few things: i've been sexually intimate with very few people, some of which i've known since we've been two years old, the one i've got to know latest in my life was when we were both 14 years old. so i'm fairly confident they are all living as their biological gender. if i would find out that i'd slept with a transgender person, it wouldn't be a tragedy for me. it would just be something that would instantly all apparent attractiveness of that person for me (just my taste i guess).

about the sex/gender thing you will have to elaborate. i was using sex and gender synonymous. apparently, that isn't correct and i've caused a misunderstanding by my accidental correct use of the terms. can you re-imagine the sentence as saying "gender" instead of "sex" please? that would have been what i actually meant.

 

[an annoyed writer]

if we would ever get to that point where we could do that, i would certainly have to revalue that viewpoint, i'll admit that. we aren't there yet though.
the main reason i think that way is actually a point you adressed in your post:
you say you think like a woman. so, that raises the question: how do you know how a (biological) woman thinks?
i'm not a neurologist or any other sort of professional on the matter. however, i have talked to one once about the subject. men and woman think and experience things in a pretty different way, right down to an observable level in electric signals in the brain. and the way we think and experience things are largely determined by chromosomes, genetics and the hormons we are exposed to prior to birth, or in short: our biological gender. so any transgender person still thinks and functions to some level as their biological gender.

if we would really get to the point where we could change all that down to the last bits of changing the thought processes and brain functions, i could see it. but as long as transpersons still experience and process in the way of their biological gender, i somehow can't see transgender persons to be identical to cis-gender persons. (thanks for that term by the way, as i mentioned before i'm not totally familiar with the correct terminology)

You would be correct in that men and women think and respond differently to different stimuli: however, what you have ignored are the studies, which time and time again have shown that transgendered people, even before treatment, actually do have the neural network setup of their desired sex, rather than their biological birth sex. This is why the hormone wash theory holds as much water as it does. In the development of the fetus, the genetic code of the child tells the mother's body to do a wash of the corresponding hormone, and when that wash goes awry, people like me happen. The default state of the fetus is female, as is the default neural map: in order to create a male, A full testosterone wash is performed. In my case, this step was incomplete, leaving my brain's neural map in the default female state. If you want the studies, I will find them and post them. Again.

So let me reiterate: the point of the transition is to bring the body into congruence with how the mind works. The mind in my case is female: the point of my transition is to make the body match that blueprint as much as possible. I did not choose to be transsexual: it chose me. The genetic code is not the sole determining factor: it is merely a set of instructions, and in my case they weren't followed. Nature fucked up. We're correcting its mistakes with the tools we have so far. Simple as that.

 

[Kathinka]

if we would ever get to that point where we could do that, i would certainly have to revalue that viewpoint, i'll admit that. we aren't there yet though.
the main reason i think that way is actually a point you adressed in your post:
you say you think like a woman. so, that raises the question: how do you know how a (biological) woman thinks?
i'm not a neurologist or any other sort of professional on the matter. however, i have talked to one once about the subject. men and woman think and experience things in a pretty different way, right down to an observable level in electric signals in the brain. and the way we think and experience things are largely determined by chromosomes, genetics and the hormons we are exposed to prior to birth, or in short: our biological gender. so any transgender person still thinks and functions to some level as their biological gender.

if we would really get to the point where we could change all that down to the last bits of changing the thought processes and brain functions, i could see it. but as long as transpersons still experience and process in the way of their biological gender, i somehow can't see transgender persons to be identical to cis-gender persons. (thanks for that term by the way, as i mentioned before i'm not totally familiar with the correct terminology)

You would be correct in that men and women think and respond differently to different stimuli: however, what you have ignored are the studies, which time and time again have shown that transgendered people, even before treatment, actually do have the neural network setup of their desired sex, rather than their biological birth sex. This is why the hormone wash theory holds as much water as it does. In the development of the fetus, the genetic code of the child tells the mother's body to do a wash of the corresponding hormone, and when that wash goes awry, people like me happen. The default state of the fetus is female, as is the default neural map: in order to create a male, A full testosterone wash is performed. In my case, this step was incomplete, leaving my brain's neural map in the default female state. If you want the studies, I will find them and post them. Again.

So let me reiterate: the point of the transition is to bring the body into congruence with how the mind works. The mind in my case is female: the point of my transition is to make the body match that blueprint as much as possible. I did not choose to be transsexual: it chose me. The genetic code is not the sole determining factor: it is merely a set of instructions, and in my case they weren't followed. Nature fucked up. We're correcting its mistakes with the tools we have so far. Simple as that.

interesting. in my talk to that specialist (one of my close friends is a mtf transgender and currently in the transition process) i was lead to believe the opposite, that, although different in transgender people, the basic functions remain similar to that of the biological gender. i'll have to do more research on the matter then i guess and come back. not today though, way too sick. thanks for that standpoint though.

 

[The Lunatic]

just as a mtf transgender has the right to see himself as a girl, i have the right to seem him as a guy.

For what it's worth. I think you're completely entitled to your opinion.

I'm willing to say, I agree with you, you're allowed to identify anyone as any gender you like, vocalising these thoughts if something different, but, it's entirely harmless in my books.


I have some difficulty regarding people who proclaim to be female as such.

I'm perfectly willing to change my mind, and I won't outwardly vocalise this upon meeting somebody who is as such, but, a few are so paranoid and touchy about the issue it's hard to take them seriously.

Maybe I'm just so jaded from all the crazy I've encountered over my visitation to the internet.

I'm fully away it's a real disorder, I'm completely understanding that it is something some people are suffering with. I get it entirely.

Regrettably, however, some of those I've encountered that make this claim have really tarnished it for me.

 

[Kathinka]

just as a mtf transgender has the right to see himself as a girl, i have the right to seem him as a guy.

For what it's worth. I think you're completely entitled to your opinion.

I'm willing to say, I agree with you, you're allowed to identify anyone as any gender you like, vocalising these thoughts if something different, but, it's entirely harmless in my books.


I have some difficulty regarding people who proclaim to be female as such.

I'm perfectly willing to change my mind, and I won't outwardly vocalise this upon meeting somebody who is as such, but, a few are so paranoid and touchy about the issue it's hard to take them seriously.

Maybe I'm just so jaded from all the crazy I've encountered over my visitation to the internet.

I'm fully away it's a real disorder, I'm completely understanding that it is something some people are suffering with. I get it entirely.

Regrettably, however, some of those I've encountered that make this claim have really tarnished it for me.

i'll fully agree with that post, it very much reflects my personal experiences, internet and real life.

one exeption to my agreement though: i wouldn't call it a disorder. sure, it can be problematic for the individual and it's not what is considered "normal" by society (as if that mattered), but something about calling it a disorder rubs me the wrong way..like if people were to call homosexuality a disorder.

 

[Angelowl]

if we would ever get to that point where we could do that, i would certainly have to revalue that viewpoint, i'll admit that. we aren't there yet though.
the main reason i think that way is actually a point you adressed in your post:
you say you think like a woman. so, that raises the question: how do you know how a (biological) woman thinks?
i'm not a neurologist or any other sort of professional on the matter. however, i have talked to one once about the subject. men and woman think and experience things in a pretty different way, right down to an observable level in electric signals in the brain. and the way we think and experience things are largely determined by chromosomes, genetics and the hormons we are exposed to prior to birth, or in short: our biological gender. so any transgender person still thinks and functions to some level as their biological gender.

if we would really get to the point where we could change all that down to the last bits of changing the thought processes and brain functions, i could see it. but as long as transpersons still experience and process in the way of their biological gender, i somehow can't see transgender persons to be identical to cis-gender persons. (thanks for that term by the way, as i mentioned before i'm not totally familiar with the correct terminology)

I do not want to get into a heated debate regarding semantics. But I give you some food for thought. Please note what you wrote yourself, more specifically "the way we think and experience things are largely determined by chromosomes, genetics and the hormons we are exposed to prior to birth". There are malfunctions and such that suppresses the effects of the chromosomes, that have already been brought up in the thread (I think?). Seemingly "normal" people with the wrong set of sex-chromosomes exists. "Androgen insensitivity syndrome" I believe it's called with XY women, should have been a man but grows up as a healthy woman.
The latest research I've read about and discussed with my doctor regarding a cause to gender dysphoria concerns the last part that is important for sexual characteristics. Pre-birth hormones, we pretty much know when and how the brain diverges into a gendered form. I believe it was the second hormonal wash that was important, too little or too much testoterone affects the brains developement. So it's less that we have "female brains" as much as "feminized brains".

I admit that this is far from 100%, but the latest and most probably theory. Personally I think it's only a matter of time before we qualify as intersexual, which makes sense. Let's note what we actually know, it's an identity disorder that can't be cured and can manifest at an early age. It's been concluded for decades that it's inborn. It's in our brains from birth, and doesn't that suggest that something went wrong in the process of forming the brain?

 

[Kathinka]

snip

let me answer with a hypothetical example: a guy that is, for whatever reason, completely turned off by tattoos of any kind, sleeps with a girl that he finds very attractive, that, for whatever reason, keeps her shirt/dress on during the act. he later discovers that she has a large tattoo on her back.

does that analogy make sense? sorry i'm doing my best here, but i'm running a pretty high fever right now and can't perfectly verbalize my thoughts..

 

[The Lunatic]

one exeption to my agreement though: i wouldn't call it a disorder. sure, it can be problematic for the individual and it's not what is considered "normal" by society (as if that mattered), but something about calling it a disorder rubs me the wrong way..like if people were to call homosexuality a disorder.

Ah, lack of clarity.


Gender Dysphoria is what I regard as the disorder, not transsexualism itself.

 

[Angelowl]

just as a mtf transgender has the right to see himself as a girl, i have the right to seem him as a guy.

For what it's worth. I think you're completely entitled to your opinion.

I'm willing to say, I agree with you, you're allowed to identify anyone as any gender you like, vocalising these thoughts if something different, but, it's entirely harmless in my books.


I have some difficulty regarding people who proclaim to be female as such.

I'm perfectly willing to change my mind, and I won't outwardly vocalise this upon meeting somebody who is as such, but, a few are so paranoid and touchy about the issue it's hard to take them seriously.

Maybe I'm just so jaded from all the crazy I've encountered over my visitation to the internet.

I'm fully away it's a real disorder, I'm completely understanding that it is something some people are suffering with. I get it entirely.

Regrettably, however, some of those I've encountered that make this claim have really tarnished it for me.

i'll fully agree with that post, it very much reflects my personal experiences, internet and real life.

one exeption to my agreement though: i wouldn't call it a disorder. sure, it can be problematic for the individual and it's not what is considered "normal" by society (as if that mattered), but something about calling it a disorder rubs me the wrong way..like if people were to call homosexuality a disorder.

Ah yes, this. The thing is that most of us are desperate and get through a lot of shit. Some get... over-zealous, defensive? Honestly, other transgenders get treated the same way if not worse. There is ironically a whole bunch of transphobic transsexuals (and other categories). The kind that talks about "true transsexuals" and the like.

An example, a blog by a FtM I've read from time to time. There was a rabid MtF constanntly complaining that he was fake because he called himself gay (likes only guys so...), because that undermines his female identity. Completely missing the point of "female to MALE", fully diagnosed and post-hormones.

A lot of young TGs have complicated emotions and the moment they show some signs of doubt a trans some idiot rips them apart for "faking it" and not being properly kosher. One of the two organisations that lobby for our rights is like that, their estimated numbers of transsexuals in sweden are fewer that those that have had their juridical gender changed. And they state that "Transsexuals find it highly insulting to be called transgender", and my reaction is "Do I? Since when?!"
The other organisation is a traditional LGBTQ-rights type, not my subculture but at least they respect us and don't resort to harrasment. >.<

 

[omicron1]

, if i can accept them and let them have their view on the matter, why can't i get the same courtesy?

Because somehow you got it into your head that not accepting a trans person as the gender and sex they transitioned to is somehow accepting them.

Pretty much this. That's more along the lines of tolerance, and tolerance is bullshit. When you tolerate someone you're basically saying "I think what you are is wrong, but I'm not going to outright antagonize you about it". That's passive-aggressive bullshit, and it's exactly what we don't want. We want acceptance.

Which is precisely the problem.

You (in a general sense, the activist members of the trans* community) seem want to make other people think (or at least act) a certain way on what is in no uncertain sense a matter of opinion.

None of us have any right to change others' minds on this issue, any more than I have a right to force Christianity on others just because I believe it. Further, as we are seeking respect from others, the least we can do is respect them and their beliefs as well.

I don't particularly care if someone considers me a woman or a man with a lot of odd modifications. Sure, if insults or deliberate callouts are involved, I am unlikely to be friends with them - but that is because they are deliberately rude, not because they don't accept my choices. Feel free to think of me as a man in a dress until the day you die. I'm doing this for me, not you.

 

[Cheeseman Muncher]

The only real question I have is what do you see as being the difference between transsexual and transgender, or are the two effectively interchangable?

EDIT: I think this has already been answered in the time it took me to read to this point. Feel free to ignore me.