Transgenders, Transsexuals, and the Whole Gamut

[gazumped]

I especially don't understand how anyone can have a serious problem with transvestitism. For example, it's not like wearing make-up or dresses is directly linked to having a vagina, it's just something that our society has decided that women do and men don't, so how can someone be disgusted when a man says "actually, I like to do that, too."
And it seems a shame that they feel they have to then identify as a sex that doesn't fit with their genetalia even if they have no desire to change said genetalia, just because the way they dress doesn't fit with people's perceptions of that genetalia.

As for sex changes, people get facial reconstruction surgery on the National Health Service here in the UK if they have burns or other disfigurements, their faces may still work fine in a practical sense but their self esteem and general psychological health may be destroyed by looking that way. If you hate physically being a certain sex and it's destroying you psychologically I don't see why getting genital reconstruction should be much different.

 

[Woodsey]

You'll find that, despite the average age on this site (probably 17/18) and the political alignment typical of that age group, a lot of people will turn into raging conservatives at the mention of certain things.

This topic is one of them.

Anyway, I don't care. Put it like this: if a great war breaks out where all the transsexual midgets fight the anti-everything-not-heterosexual midgets, I'll stand with the transsexuals.

I may have watched In Bruges again recently.

EDIT: To an extent. They'll go batshit insane the moment piracy is mentioned, yet sexuality based discussions are usually full of people with no qualms at all when it comes to homo/bi etc. Amazing, really.

That's just because they've been trained what they're allowed to snap at and what to leave alone by the mods.

Calling someone who downloaded a piece of music an A-moral sack of shit who's leaching off of society and the one and only reason that it's crumbling, perfectly acceptable.

Voicing disapproval of someone's lifestyle choices, you goin-a hell son!

The difference being of course that one is a matter in which the act involved is damaging someone else.

 

[SouthpawFencer]

... what do you, you wonderful Escapist lot, think about transgenders, transsexuals, genderqueers or other? Do you harbour any sort of prejudice? Do you feel appalled? Do you support their individual decisions to find their own way? What are your thoughts?

Well, I'm afraid that I'm not up-to-date on a lot of these terms, and I've found that differences in definitions can cause unnecessary arguments. Therefore...

What's the difference between transgenders, transsexuals, and genderqueers? Is there any difference at all, or is those three different ways of saying the same thing?

Personally, I find that transgenders creep me out slightly. That's a personal failing, though, and they have every right to live their own life and lifestyle, provided that I don't have to subsidize it (note: this attitude tends to apply towards every lifestyle choice people tend to make, including self-destructive behaviors such as recreational drug use, having children or watching golf on TV).

I don't know what I'd do if I discovered that a woman that I was in an intimate relationship with had once been a man. I'd like to think that my attitude would be "well if she was woman enough for me ten minutes ago, why not now?". Hard to say until it actually happens, though.

A good line (and I'm jealous of the person who came up with it) for transgenders to remember when dealing with some jerk demanding to know if they're a man or a woman: "I'm more man than you'll ever BE, and more woman than you'll ever HAVE!"

 

[Thaa'ir]

I am completely in favor of it, in the sense that I leave it to choice. I don't see how it has anything to do with morality whatsoever.

 

[DevilWolf47]

I work in neurology and am intimately familiar with disconnect between mentality and physical biology. Mentally being a different gender than you are physically is relatively tame compared to the shit i see on a daily basis.

I tell you what, i can see some logic to counterarguments towards some measures made to appeal to transgenders. Plastic surgery and hormone treatment can't correct for much of anything, in the end changing physical appearance is all we can do, depending on the context you can accuse some of self-mutilating.
On the other hand though, they're people who were pretty much betrayed by biology. I can understand the pain being victimized because of elements beyond your control, and if it eases the pain slightly without causing serious damage, i'm not about to spend time making disingenuous claims based on a morality that is fractured at best.


Or to dumb it all down, there is some gray area, but in general i think transgenders put up with enough shit as is, they don't need extra grief coming from ignorant bastards who speak as if they know what is best for total strangers in regards to something they will never try to comprehend.

 

[Woodsey]

EDIT: To an extent. They'll go batshit insane the moment piracy is mentioned, yet sexuality based discussions are usually full of people with no qualms at all when it comes to homo/bi etc. Amazing, really.

That's just because they've been trained what they're allowed to snap at and what to leave alone by the mods.

Calling someone who downloaded a piece of music an A-moral sack of shit who's leaching off of society and the one and only reason that it's crumbling, perfectly acceptable.

Voicing disapproval of someone's lifestyle choices, you goin-a hell son!

The difference being of course that one is a matter in which the act involved is damaging someone else.

I'm just curious... did you miss this part? Or just ignore it?

hyperbole somewhere in there

Regardless, that shouldn't effect someone's ability to be open minded.

Yeah, I assumed the hyperbole was in reference to "A-moral sack of shit" stuff in the example.

And now I can't tell if we agree or not xD

That they have such an open mind for some things, and yet an air tight one for others. Infact, a reply explained it perfectly to me.

Sorry to tell you this, but having a basic respect for other people doesn't require an exceptional degree of open mindedness.

Homophobes and transphobes are a dying breed of exceptionally narrow minded people. You're certainly not the good wholesome normal folk fighting a tide of moral degeneracy. You never were. Get over it.

Did it ever occur to you that people who are against these choices might have reason for it? And that their stance on the matter should be equally respected?

Such as?

 

[DanDanikov]

I'd like to think the Escapist community is a font of learned and enlightened individuals who are quite accepting of people who happen to belong to one minority of another that is typically abused by more narrow-minded and bigoted people. There does exist certain subcultures for which such attitudes are the norm (take large chunks of the US that are still fundamentally Christian and manage to be legislatively homophobic), but I don't think many of them find their way here.

I find there's a fair amount of discomfort and misinformation (or just plain ignorance) that can make trans issues worse. I'm not quite sure how anyone can justify someone who's born ambiguously gendered is being 'wrong, selfish and immoral'. Next thing you know, tomboys will be 'wrong, selfish and immoral' (talk about a double-standard, eh?). Sure, people have a right to believe it's wrong from a religious perspective, and some countries more than others suffer from a lack of secularism, but even if it were 'wrong, selfish and immoral' well, what's new?

EDIT: To an extent. They'll go batshit insane the moment piracy is mentioned, yet sexuality based discussions are usually full of people with no qualms at all when it comes to homo/bi etc. Amazing, really.

To be honest, the piracy backlash is somewhat due to moderator guidelines and is inherent in the system. It does strike me as odd that we can have adult descriptions about trans-sexualism, but not about piracy; to even joke about piracy will earn you a warning at least. Therefore the community selects for strong, vocal anti-piracy views and harshly silences the rest, which leads to the appearance of the bias you see.

 

[Vilcus]

This falls into the life choice category for me. It's their life, everyone else can go jump off a cliff if they can't handle others living their lives as they wish. Accept it, and move on. Unless, you know... someone is trying to murder people, and do horrible things to others. In that case fucking stop them from living their life.

 

[Sandytimeman]

I have a kind of admiration for transgenders. To go through all those drugs, surgery, to know yourself so well that you can go through all that.

I find alot of transgenders fairly attractive, and I've got no problem with any of them.

 

[Hitman Dread]

Do we really need to debate a real psychological disorder?
I suppose autistic people are selfish too.

 

[deathandtaxes]

That they have such an open mind for some things, and yet an air tight one for others. Infact, a reply explained it perfectly to me.

Sorry to tell you this, but having a basic respect for other people doesn't require an exceptional degree of open mindedness.

Homophobes and transphobes are a dying breed of exceptionally narrow minded people. You're certainly not the good wholesome normal folk fighting a tide of moral degeneracy. You never were. Get over it.

Whatever. You're clearly trying to instigate a fight, something i really can't be arsed with. Your replies jump from conclusion to conclusion and have nothing to do with my own posts from what i can gather. If you want people to respect your views, stop being a prick about it. How's that?
Did it ever occur to you that people who are against these choices might have reason for it? And that their stance on the matter should be equally respected?

Now if you'll excuse me, i'll be bashing my skull against my desk.

Yes actually and it's exactly because their reasoning is mostly based in (A)Ignorance or (B)Religious Ignorance and vary rarely (C)plain stupidity. Hence I am disinclined to appreciate their views on the subject.

Interestingly enough this is also why I don't listen to people who watch FOX News I find it saves time and money as I don't have time to cast pearls before swine.

 

[i7omahawki]

I remember a month or so ago, I was involved in a controversial argument about whether or not transsexualism, or indeed, any non-normal gender identification, was "wrong, selfish and immoral." I argued against that assertion. I have many friends who are genderqueer, transgendered and pre-op. One of my closest friends, a "girl" I consider family, is undergoing the procedure. Naturally, I felt a sense of duty in defending the underdog. I found I was outnumbered. Most were staunch in their convictions, and I saw the whole gamut of insults directed towards the alt-gender community.

"They're pretenders," "They're fakes," "They're self-deluding morons who pay for permanent cosmetic boob-jobs they'll regret for the rest of their lives," "It's economically impractical and contributes nothing to society," etc. Yeah, this coming from the straight heterosexual crowd who waste God knows how much money on pointless junk they don't need.

Hopefully, under more civil terms, I can ask the question... what do you, you wonderful Escapist lot, think about transgenders, transsexuals, genderqueers or other? Do you harbour any sort of prejudice? Do you feel appalled? Do you support their individual decisions to find their own way? What are your thoughts?

I think that it's incredibly interesting, actually. Particularly the hate against it, is something I find interesting, although unpleasant.

It just defies the whole binary thought behind male/female, to me at least, and kind of just dumps us with roles for 'men' and 'women', which can be picked up by either, strictly biological, gender.

I would think that those against it are typically afraid of losing that duality of male and female, though I think that it was always meaningless and absurd, we're just getting further evidence.

I'd ask them if they found the perfect woman for them, were blissfully happy, enjoyed amazing sex, yadda yadda yadda, whether they would care at all if that person's chromosones read XY, or XX, which as far as I can see is the only solid evidence of a human being either male or female. To me, it wouldn't matter at all, though I can sort of understand why it unsettles some.

I have quite a lot of respect for transgendered folks, just the will behind 'choosing' (I know that few would call it a choice as such) their desired gender, essentially acting out, and becoming, who they are, whether or not it is what is assigned to them, is a very solid of people forging their own identities, and I think that perhaps that community is the strongest example of that.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Hopefully, under more civil terms, I can ask the question... what do you, you wonderful Escapist lot, think about transgenders, transsexuals, genderqueers or other? Do you harbour any sort of prejudice? Do you feel appalled? Do you support their individual decisions to find their own way? What are your thoughts?

My cousin is going through the process of a female-to-male trangender. Honestly, I'm find with this. By his request, I call him Kris rather than Krista and refer to them as "one of the guys". That so much dosn't bother me.

However, I would never enter a romantic relationship with someone who was born a man. I just don't think I could do that.

 

[Manthraxx]

I'm sick of people trying to tell other people what to do, this especially applies to religion, politics and sexuality... however people want to live their lives is fine, so go nuts and be who you want to be.. no judgement from my little corner of the universe.

I do see the irony though.. If you want to be a dictator, a crusader or an axemurderer it would be a bit problematic for the rest of us, but the golden rule is:
Stop interfering with other peoples lives!

 

[Pandaman1911]

Their bodies, their choice. If I call somebody sir, and he says "Actually, I prefer ma'am", well then, I'll call him ma'am. If I call somebody ma'am, and they say "Actually, I prefer Duke Wellington the Third", I'll call them that! It's their choice, and they're only helping or harming themselves, so... I really don't see what the problem is.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Theres only male and female. Theres no inbetween. The "Transgenders" are just crossdressers with money for fake breasts.

A basic understanding of human biology disagrees.

 

[Daveman]

Spoiler: Yeah, well, you can prove anything with facts.