Transgenders, Transsexuals, and the Whole Gamut

[cynicalsaint1]

I think a big part of the problem is its a very hard situation to wrap your mind around if you aren't currently experiencing it. Gender makes up a HUGE part of your identity, and for the vast majority of people Gender = Sex. Because of this I literally CANNOT IMAGINE what it would be like for my Gender Identity to not match my Physical Sex - the two things are two tightly interwoven for me to even begin to try to think what it would be like for them not to be.

Sure I can think about it on an intellectual level, but that's a far cry from being able to actually understand the issue and how it would affect me. Contrast this to say homosexuality. That I can get - I understand sexual attraction, and while I don't personally experience it I can wrap my brain around the idea of being attracted to one's own sex. Meanwhile Transgenderism is something completely alien to me - and I think this can be said to be true of most people who aren't Transsexual/Transgenders/whatever. The tie between sex and gender is just to strong for most of us to really be able understand that connection not being there.

This I think is the root of the problem. Fear and unease is a common reaction to things we don't understand. The whole transgender issue goes against something that most of us take for granted as a fundamental part of our identity - its only natural to feel uncomfortable when confronted with something that completely goes against that. It also makes it very easy for the rest of us to dismiss it as something that doesn't exist and chalk it up to the Transgender individual just lying about it.

Now let me be clear - I'm not saying that its ok to hate transgenders, or we shouldn't try to understand the problem. Just that the 'hatred' for it comes from a very human place, and a place that is very difficult for a person to control.

I'll be honest if I were in the room with a Transgendered person it would make me quite uncomfortable. Now despite that I would do my best to swallow the discomfort and treat them with the respect I believe any human deserves to be treated with, but I wouldn't be able to completely stop myself from feeling uncomfortable around them, and chances are they'd notice. Now given time and the chance to get to know the person better that may go away, but the problem is most of us never get that chance. Combine this with the fact that society at large takes an ill view of Trangenders and if they ever show up in any form of media its usually as the butt of some joke; there really isn't a lot of motivation for a given individual to change their viewpoints on the issue. You can hate them because almost no one is going to call you on it.

Sadly, its going to take a lot of time for this to change - I mean homosexuality is only barely and just recently beginning to be widely accepted socially. And I think the attitude of "This is the way I am, just deal with it" is the wrong one to take. After all, the place where the negative reactions are coming from isn't a place a person can consciously control - we're wired to be weirded out by it, and it takes conscious effort for us to hold back those reactions. Understanding and acceptance never comes from simply demanding it.

I think its going to take a scientific understanding of the issue, and for that understanding to be taught to the general public. Without objective evidence that the condition exists as more than "That person is just lying about who they are" its hard to accept that there even can be a disconnect between sex and gender, and without a general understand of the issue people are just going to keep falling back on their gut reaction when confronted with it.

 

[Rex Fallout]

All of that said, you do realize that this thread is just going to solicit trasphobic comments from people, right? You are going to get people posting all sorts of hurtful stuff and it will all be covered by "this is just how I feel"--and it will all be tolerated, though no one would tolerate it if they were saying similarly racist stuff. Threads like this invariably end being really hurtful and toxic for trans people. As an ally, you might want to think about that in the future.

Transgender is a race now is it? Nice generalisation.
Actually, a lot of people on this site are ridiculously open minded[footnote]EDIT: To an extent. They'll go batshit insane the moment piracy is mentioned, yet sexuality based discussions are usually full of people with no qualms at all when it comes to homo/bi etc. Amazing, really.[/footnote]. Most people with such an opposing view, such as myself, won't even post, which is why threads like these usually have a poll (though obviously you can't just say i'm with it/against it).

Yeah most of the people on this forum are extremely open minded when it comes to sexual things... And this procedure hardly gives you your own race. Your still human- albeit changing the way you were born... but still human. Imho you dont deserve any special treatment.

 

[GraveeKing]

Yeah, this coming from the straight heterosexual crowd who waste God knows how much money on pointless junk they don't need.

Hate to be off topic but erm - trust me on this, it's pretty much EVERYONE wastes money of pointless stuff they don't need, not just the heterosexual crowd!


Anyways back on topic, I think the decision itself is important - they should give it A LOT of thought, I mean it's one thing feeling you want to be another gender, and another actually being it!
Morality wise and so on there is nothing wrong with it - if they honestly feel like they want to be the other way then they should but they just have to remember that their decision stays with them for life and it'll probably be different to what they imagine.

So basically yes - but don't come back to me crying if it goes wrong because I won't be hearing it.

 

[nekoali]

What the hell? Okay, I'll tell you right now the only thing I hate/have a problem with is all these fucking confusing classifications! DX

Look, to me, there's pre/post-op individuals- wait a tick
*googles*
Oh! Oh that's what transsexual is! Okay then.

I think that transsexual porn is as gross as gay porn. And...um... Yeah, that's pretty much it. Nothing gross about transsexualism aside from the blatant laziness of the patients' psychiatric treatment and the easy buck the gender-transforming docs make off them.
_I believe that every pre/post-op transsexual needs psychiatric care. They are men and women trapped in the "wrong" body? You tell me that's not something that deserves serious care and I can tell you that, well, I disagree. I don't mean this in an ignorant "they're crazy fuckin' tards, MAN" way. I'm very serious about this. This type of surgery is just like the kind of surgery done on patients who have a severe psychiatric disorder where they hate their limb so much they demand to have it lopped off!
I don't have it out for transsexuals. I have it out for the doctors that don't give a shit to help those people find another way before they go changing themselves.

Actually I don't care about transsexuals themselves. Again, not in a mean way. I don't care if homosexuals get married and I don't care if transsexuals do the same. Doesn't matter to me since it's not hurting anyone really.
_And I thought transgender was the term used for people who are born with both sets of genitalia. I have nothing against them either and I'm sure the porn is gross to me too. See the pattern here?

Now what in the blazing blue fuck is genderqueer, cisgender people, and-no. Unless you're possessed or part of an old Native American tribe the words "two-spirit" should not be used to define you. That's stupid to me.
Anyway, I'm done posting my thoughts! Do I get a cookie?

Actually, every transsexual person does have to go through psychiatric care, before, during and after transition and/or surgery. Part of the transition process involves seeing a therapist or a psychiatrist for evaluation, both before and during transition. They have to sign off that the trans person knows what they are doing and understands what will be happening. And anyone who they feel is confused or may not know what they are doing they can deny the necessary reference letters for hormones or surgery. And many of them DO recommend other steps a person can take if they seem unsure. It's not like you go in and they just rubberstamp you based on a self diagnosis.

As for definition confusion: Transgender is an umbrella term for anyone who doesn't fit within traditional binary gender roles. Transsexual is a person who wishes to physically change their body to some degree, or live socially in a different gender than the sex they were born to. Cisgender people are those who are not transgender. Those who are happy with their mental gender and physical sex matching up. Genderqueer are those who feel that they don't fit into either traditional gender role. It's also somewhat of an umbrella term encompassing bigender (feeling of being part of both male and female genders), agender (not feeling part of any gender at all) and anyone else who is gender variant, but not necessarily transsexual. IE they don't usually want hormones or surgery to change their body.

Two-Spirits is a term the Native Americans used to describe gender variant people, the way we use transgender. They felt they had both male and female parts to their spirit, and were often honored as being touched by the greater Spirits.

 

[Baradiel]

A few people in this thread are getting confused between "sex" and "gender". Your "sex" is biological, male or female. Your "gender" is societal, or in the case of language. Gender has replaced sex as the word to use, because sex is a dirty word (apparently).

Anyway, I have no problem with transsexuals etc. I admit, I know very little about the whole thing, but I'd never dream of holding it against people. If anything, I'd love to know more.

Oh, and if my first paragraph is inaccurate in relation to transsexuals and transgenders, my mistake.

 

[TheOtter]

I'm transgendered and have found most people are just ignorant (at least in my city). I've found a lot of people think it is funny until they meet me and realize it is actually a very tough life. I don't hide myself if someone asks, as I prefer to educate people rather than let porn or some bigot on the news shape their conceptions.

 

[orangeban]

Do we really need to debate a real psychological disorder?
I suppose autistic people are selfish too.

Interestingly there is a lot of debate over wether it should be a psychological disorder. Here's the reasoning, you treat a psychological disorder by changing the mind but you "treat" (perhaps not the best word) transexualism by changing the body to suit the mind. Really just a techinicality (if an important one) though, your point still stands.

 

[nekoali]

Well Gender Identity Disorder is currently listed as a psychological disorder, so it does apply. I am really not terribly fond of it being called that, but it is what it is. I tend to think of it more as a birth defect, messed up hormones when I was in the womb and all giving me the wrong set of chromosomes. But that is a personal thing, and it's nothing more than a possible theory to explain how transsexual people come about.

I can say though that psychology does not directly have a fix for it. I tried for most of my life to force my mind to match my body.. it just doesn't work that way and it made me more and more miserable. Now that I am altering my body to match my mind though I am much better off. Certainly happier and not miserable all the time.

 

[orangeban]

Well Gender Identity Disorder is currently listed as a psychological disorder, so it does apply. I am really not terribly fond of it being called that, but it is what it is. I tend to think of it more as a birth defect, messed up hormones when I was in the womb and all giving me the wrong set of chromosomes. But that is a personal thing, and it's nothing more than a possible theory to explain how transsexual people come about.

I can say though that psychology does not directly have a fix for it. I tried for most of my life to force my mind to match my body.. it just doesn't work that way and it made me more and more miserable. Now that I am altering my body to match my mind though I am much better off. Certainly happier and not miserable all the time.

Yeah, birth defect sounds about right to me, I was scrabbling for a better word for it than "psychological disorder" and that one seems to fit best.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

None

 

[Phoenixlight]

I personally think that they're disgusting and feel really creeped out by them but I would never say anything bad to them.

 

[TheOtter]

I'm transgendered and have found most people are just ignorant (at least in my city). I've found a lot of people think it is funny until they meet me and realize it is actually a very tough life. I don't hide myself if someone asks, as I prefer to educate people rather than let porn or some bigot on the news shape their conceptions.

I hate to quote you on this but I'd hardly call it 'ignorance'. Ignorance implies it's their responsibility to know about transgender conditions and lifestyles when they're actually only affecting a tiny percentage of the population (transexualism is reckoned at...eh, about 0.2% but that's a ballpark, it's well below 1% though) and it's basically useless info to most people.

To put it in perspective that's roughly the percentage of people in the US that have Crohn's disease. How much do you know about Crohn's disease? Or about epilepsy or Tourette's or any of the other far more prevalent conditions that are commonly misunderstood?

Are you ignorant for not knowing about it? Course not, ignorance is too strong and accusatory a word, it's specialist knowledge you have no need to ever use. Well for most people your situation is exactly that.

Ignorance is simply not knowing about something. Yes I am ignorant of the particulars of Chron's disease because I have not researched it. I am also ignorant on the culture of central African nations, simply because I do not have detailed knowledge of it. People know transgendered individuals exist and many have not chosen to research the matter (just as I have chosen to not learn about Chron's disease or African cultures). Regardless of whether a topic affects everyone or not the person still has the option to learn about a topic (see Wikipedia and the like). Perhaps ignorance was not the perfect word to choose (though I find it fitting) however I will still expect people who know a particular subject exists to either take some time to learn basics of the matter or be willing to be educated by someone who is knowledgeable in that field.

 

[nekoali]

I would never fault anyone for lacking knowledge. I know that I am ignorant about far more subjects than ones I have knowledge of. And I know that for most people, transgender issues just never come up, so they have no reason to look into them. Anymore than I need to have knowledge of brain surgery or the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow. And there is a lot of misinformation out there, either through lack of knowledge, poor media stereotypes of malicious lies. So if someone just doesn't know about transgender issues, or has the wrong idea about them, that's fine. If asked, I'll gladly share what I know.

I do have issue though with people who are willfully ignorant. Those who have been exposed to knowledge about the subject, but just refuse to accept it or change any incorrect or harmful viewpoints. Those who would rather wallow in their own ignorance, misinformation or fear/hatred just because they can. However, I do accept that they have the right to be that way and think that way. And so long as they are not bashing me or trying to take away/keep me from my rights or anything like that, I believe in live and let live.

 

[randomrob]

I feel that they can do as they wish as long as they aren't hurting anyone. However, personally in my mind, I will always consider them to be their genetic gender, regardless of what they change. Not saying I'm gonna be a dick or anything, I just want to keep their original gender clear in my own mind.

Note: That means that in interactions I will use their preffered pronoun, however, in my mind I will still consider them to be their genetic gender.

 

[superbatranger]

I treat them the way they deserve to be treated. As normal people. If they are friendly, I'll treat them in a similar manner. If they show me no respect, well I most certainly will not show them any back.

 

[Philip Petrunak]

Many studies show that the "probem" with them isn't psychological, it's neurological. They don't just think they are a person of the opposite sex, they are. You see, while parts of our biology are different based on genetic blueprints, much of our physical and sexual development is shaped by the hormones we're exposed to in utero. The sexual development brain is, to my knowledge, shaped by the hormones were exposed to. So while a body can, for example, physically grow into a male, increased estrogen levels can cause the brain to development into a effeminate, queer, or even female brain.

To this end, I do not believe sex reassignment procedures should be considered elective any more then any other surgery to correct a birth defect.

Also, a key to understanding the science of queer issues to understand that sex and sexuality are not dualities, but spectrums, and that we all land somewhere on the line.

 

[feycreature]

I have my opinions on the matter, and I honestly think that anyone who says they wouldn't be just a little bit creeped out at first is full of shit. I know everyone loves to put their liberal hat on when internet time rolls around, but picture this -

Your son comes home and introduces you to his new 'girlfriend' - A post-op tranny. When we speak about equality and rights and all that stuff, we rarely put the situation at hand into our own gardens. Think on that.

That said, I'd never be so rude as to publicly belittle or demean anyone, and I think it no business of mine what someone wishes to do with their own body. But not in my house.

My biological dad is transgendered. People ask me whether I have a problem with it, to which I respond "I'm not sleeping with her." Our relationship hasn't changed. Also, one of my exes was in the process of transitioning when we were going out. I met her as a boy. I had no issue with it, and in the end she broke up with me. At a dance a little while ago I met the most blindingly gorgeous FtM transgendered fella and happily planned to go out on a real date sometime later.

Is that in my own garden enough?

There are exceptions to every rule.

Someone else quoted me who I'm yet to get back to, but they are transgender, your dad is a transgender, so yeah, its very fair to say you guys are accustomed to it. But surely you understand that puts you in very small minorities and while that obviously doesn't effect you as a person, most people aren't in your shoes.

Most people have extremely little to no contact with those communities, and people get confused and perhaps unnerved by the idea of a man who changes his body to look like a woman or vice versa. Just because you call a man who looks like a woman 'she', you went out with what amounts to a very pretty man. I couldn't give a shit and I'd pity anyone who did, just saying.

What you're "just saying" is that regardless of all of the experiences and research on gender dysphoria, the genitals one is born with (and in cases of indeterminate gender in infants, the genitals the doctors decide to let you keep) determine one's only possible correct gender and sex, which I cannot accept.

A phobia is actually exactly the right word for being creeped out by someone because of their gender presentation. A phobia is an irrational fear, often based on cultural conditioning. I have irrational fears of spiders, heights, I used to have an irrational fear, or phobia, of devout Christians. I behaved respectfully, but they unnerved me.

I learned better.

I do give a shit about respecting the hard choices people have to make in their lives. I give a shit about not insulting people when I have no good reason to do so. I give a shit about the emotional wellbeing of others. I pity those who don't.

 

[DeepComet5581]

Transgenderism must be much less prevalent in the UK, as I don't know a single one.

However, while it's not my prerogative to condemn someone for a personal choice, I do feel that many transgenders do take the opportunity for granted. It doesn't empower them in any way and most people would be able to tell that they were transgender, which leaves them open to more abuse.

I have no prejudice towards them (i.e. I wouldn't treat them differently) and being a Liberal I support personal choice, but I would just feel uncomfortable around them knowing that their... peripherals were surgically placed there and that their voice doesn't fit them.

Civilised enough?

Oh come on their voice doesn't fit them? I find that assertion patently false.

Unless they get vocal cord surgery or a good spell (i.e. more than 12 months) of hormone replacement therapy, then their voice doesn't change much, which tends to be fairly noticeable.