Tropes vs Women SECOND VIDEO - "Damsel in Distress: Part 2"

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

I did roll my eyes a bit when she mentioned Borderlands 2, since to mention her as such and point out what happens to her ignores the entire context of her character and her role in the plot, especially as a thematic contrast to both Lilith and Maya, particularly the former as an NPC in the second.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Except you can make a list where half of her list is basically her taking out all context or completely not getting the point to where you honestly have to question if she really did play all those games as her "primary sources" instead of you know actually doing real research and actually traveling across the country or even just skype calls to the developers of the game.

Yet, I elected to single out Borderlands 2 because it's particularly egregious in the field of cherry-picking.

The sirens are the most powerful characters in the game, mechanically and in-universe. Angel was the single most powerful character in the entire series. She knew what she was doing, of her own volition and in full control of her own faculties, and yet was not in a position to simply do herself in and single-handedly end Jack's ambitions. She even went to the lengths to urge Lilith herself -- whose presence alone could monkey wrench the entire thing -- to not participate, meaning it wasn't even a male, or patriarchal, character telling the woman to stay out of it.

It's not even necessarily a male character -- or a male player, for that matter -- to do her in. To wit, the PC never acts directly, violently, against Angel -- they destroy the Iridium injectors. To characterize that as "murder" is a bit sensationalist itself. It is, and it's framed as in the game, an act of voluntary sacrifice in defiance of her own victimization, an act that is logically one of empowerment.

And, to wrap this up, the last bit of context is that Jack is a raging misogynist, and his misogyny is the core motivator of the plot of the entire series to date. He murdered his grandmother, he's implied to have killed his wife, and he keeps Angel as a possession rather than a person. Not to mention how he treats and speaks of Moxxi, and later Lilith, and the thing with Helena Pierce. In direct relation to that, for Lilith's and Angel's roles in the game -- and Maya -- the underlying theme is defiance of, and empowerment from, patriarchal power structure.

 

[Auron]

So basically only men can be brutalized in games because when women die or get hurt it's a way for would-be wife beaters to realize they want to violate all women? That sounds like the default retarded politician who wants to ban games M.O. I think even Jack Thompson wouldn't be that stupid, not to mention that's not promoting equality at all just rambling about violent games influencing real world actions which no research can even suggest is a possibility to begin with.

I really don't know how someone can still defend this and the other utter stupidity the woman constantly repeats at this point... This is beginning to turn into gaming's college marx worshipers.

 

[faefrost]

Her videos aren't that bad. They do raise some interesting points and serve as a starting point for discussions that go both ways. I can't understand why nitwits would even be bothered by her, or certainly seek to harass her the way some do. OMG she is a girl and has opinions about how women are treated in video games?

Now her points are far from perfect. They are frequently overly simplified. and are specifically skewed to support a particular agenda or worldview. But there is some room to come to a worthwhile discussion from them. The first thing we have to except is that not everything about the tropes that she names is in fact bad. These are simply storytelling structures and elements for games. Ultimately the problem comes from how they are used and how they are written. Not that they even exist. If you take them from a gender neutral perspective, these are simply a way to immerse the player, and seek to give him something to fight for etc within the game world. The trope could work either way, be it male or female protagonist. Loss of mate/lover, fear or desire to rescue child. desire to rescue partner or loved one from danger. The core trope is fine. The problem is that they are used in ham handed ways and almost always revolving around male protagonists.

Honestly much of her presentation could be made in a much shorter way. And she would be hard pressed to find anyone except for a small portion of contrary nitwits who push back just to be jackasses, who disagree with her. and I can't escape the feeling that rather than have the short intelligent discussion with the majority of those who mainly agree with her, she is kinda seeking to bait out the raving misogynistic idiots for yet another confrontation. She seems to do it a lot. And I grow more and more suspicious that she is not a victim of their misogyny, than she is looking for a fight for her own purposes.

My one other criticism of her. I notice that she seems to have a lot of complaints. Many wrongs. But no answers. No fixes. Beyond the underlying feeling that things MUST be different and everyone must jump up and make it so. This is feminist sociology. Not engineering or game design. It's kinda the core of why nobody takes Sociology or many other "soft sciences" seriously anymore. They present problems. Science is supposed to present answers. In this case the solutions are simple. The audience you are seeking are gamers. You attract and correct gamers by creating good gameplay. good stories. Give the gamers the stories you wish and if they are well written and exciting, they will come to you and ask for more. we don't want to read your womens studies undergraduate thesis. We want to see what you think is the type of story we should be playing through. And we want it to be good. good gameplay. good story. good charcters regardless of sex.

 

[WitherVoice]

This one was much better than the previous one.

 

[feauxx]

hahah i lold. in the description of the video she wrote a list of spoilers for the games she discusses including: Kane & Lunch: Dead Men (2007)

OT: it think she nailed it this time, great video, looking forward to the last one on the topic so i can criticize it as a whole

also thought the one time she tried to be snarky was cute, cause girl you fail, that is not how a snark is done. oh well..

 

[generals3]

The problem is that the companies assume that the demand is low, when it actually isn't. The companies are so afraid of trying new things to appeal to the other demographics that they prefer to stick to the tried and true ways.

That's only a problem if the assumption is wrong. Which has yet to be proven.

And it also has nothing to do with how niche the game is. The game ends up costing more than it makes back, so it ends up failing. Jim Sterling has said it in an episode quite succinctly, a game that is focused to a niche audience can be a commercial success without needing to debase itself by appealing to the biggest audience. So long as it knows its niche audience and delivers what the audience wants, it will be a success.

That's not true. Niche markets get saturated much more quickly. There is a reason why you have much more WoW-clones than EVE-clones. To make a game that won't make people wanna puke you need a minimum investment (and let's not forget you also need a minimum marketing budget for your target to be convinced your game is good). As such there is a limit to how little your target market can be. And if there are already big players in the niche it gets even worse. Tapping into a niche market is riskier and more difficult than mass markets.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

I think you misunderstood me. I was asking for statistics regarding the player base of Bioware. The demographics of the entire gaming industry is of no interest and of little relevance to this discussion. (just like the demographics of the whole costumer base of the clothing industry is of little relevance to a discussion about the potential costumer base of skirts)

And I see that as her expressing her opinion, not a fact. I think she does genuinely believe what she's saying, and that's why she speaks so factually, but I wouldn't consider her statements as factual when the term "harmful" is so ill-defined and difficult to find proof for.

Well, she should be more careful with her words. When someone presents things as fact i'll see it as them presenting things as facts.

 

[Westaway]

Relax, bro. I never said I was outraged- I'm more amused by the whole situation. All I asked was why people thought giving money to a lady to read a TVTropes page was worthwhile.

Sis, not bro, but not to worry. Anyway, I misinterpreted your reaction. Apologies. Part of the reason I saw you as being annoyed is that she's not just reading examples from a TV Tropes page, she's identifying and discussing them. It would be more akin to writing a TV Tropes page. However, given that she has plenty more videos still to come, it would again be more akin to writing a series of pages... but with the added expense of video, audio, post-processing, etc.

Why pay her to do it? Honestly, I had never heard of her until I saw people trolling about her on this site while the Kickstarter was running. While I did watch a few of her videos on YouTube subsequently and reckoned that work was worth supporting at a higher level, my main motivation was standing with someone who was being persecuted and showing the people who were abusing her that such actions would only make her cause stronger in the end.

It's worth pointing out that she didn't ask for that much money. She only asked for a few thousand quid to make her videos. And no one had to give her even that. It's not like she felt entitled to even the sum she asked for. She just gave it a try and this is what happened.

Regardless of whether she's reading one or writing a whole book of them, TVTropes pages are all around awful sources of information, and shouldn't be taken seriously, at all. But really, that's all besides the point that she didn't even truly discuss anything; she said what the problem was, offered far too many examples, then brought up a mutation of the original problem and offered even more examples. Problem is, no one would have possible imagined denying the presence of "the Damsel in Distress" trope. Everyone knows it exists.

Giving persecuted people does nothing but giving them money. I think it's worth pointing out that "internet trolling" is also easily the most insignificant form of persecution, and is easily ignored by turning off your computer. I don't think there is a need to expound further than that.

At the end of the day, although what this lady may be doing is in theory for a good cause, her execution seems laughable at best.

 

[Angelblaze]

Her main argument appears to be that any portrayal of females getting hurt is "brutalization fantasy", where I simply don't see it that way.

I know what you mean: I'm personally responsible for interplantery genocide, on the basis of how many rank and file male mooks i've slaughtered over the years... But a woman gets hit once & OH MY FUCKING GOD, SEXISM, MYSOGYNI! (yeah i know thats not how that is spelt, but women is not spelled with a "Y," because as Linkara keeps on telling us; "poor literacy is cool")

But honestly, i can sum up Anitas entire 25:41 video in a single paragraph.

*ahem*

Anita: HOW dare any product ever made, not be made specifically for my personal preferences. I'm going to now refer to anything i dislike as Misogyny... Misogyny, Misogyny, Misogyny, Misogyny, Misogyny, Misogyny, aren't i inciteful.


Bu really what got me was at 18:20 when Anita refers to killing a love interest who is becoming a monster as "domestic violence": No hun, thats not domestic violence, its a mercy. If i'm turning into a flesh hungry zombie, with no chance of a cure, yes, yes, i want you to shoot me in the head & put me out of my misery... Because thats a mercy.

But you are automatically insisting that by your OWN OPINION, that that is a mercy and that the women actually always want to be killed. Personally and speaking as a woman if I was becoming a monster with awesome powers and got to keep part of what makes me 'myself' mentally, I would actually not care and not want to get killed. Even if I lost my memories and sanity I'd love to be a rampaging monster, kicking ass and taking names if only for the sheer fact that I was previously victimized, brutalized and beaten.

THAT would be a character/game I would like to play. Male protagonist goes in to save girl (beginning cutscene), she gets turned into a monster, kills the hero and becomes the real hero (or playable super villain main character story focus) using her awesome monster powers.

But likewise, you also completely ignoring when she said that women in fighting games are basically not counted in this trope because they are on equal footing with the other characters - IE, not all women getting hit in video games is domestic abuse/sexism.

Also: To anyone getting upset that she disabled comments, did you see the comments on her first videos concerning this topic?

Rape and murder threats, harassment, yells to get back in the kitchen and tons of insults such as 'slut', 'whore' and 'attention whore' were thrown around; she has the justified right to turn the comments off as it is her own video but also its double justified because Youtube and certain members of the escapist fail to actually try to advance the conversation but rather turn everything into an argument doing everything within their power to not use any form of logic and/or do anything about said issue (Example, the consistent use of the words 'This is not an issue' or 'I don't care' to try and not talk about something that is clearly an issue that people that may or may not be you care about. In per-emptive response to those who are undoubtedly going to try and defend saying one of the two: Just because you don't care, does NOT make it not an issue. If just makes it an issue you refuse to take a stand on/get involved in, as caring implies that you are indeed making an opinion known/caring about the subject matter.)

To be honest, I thought these videos would be much, MUCH worse from what I was hearing. Thank you for opening my eyes and personally, my heart goes out to her - she seems to be getting much unjustified hatred and threats.

And sure, her points my be far from perfect but that doesn't change the fact that she is right on some parts - no one can logically deny the amount of female brutalization/over-usage of the DiD trope especially when compared to the amount of times you play a female character rescuing her attractive male model boyfriend with the closest thing (and probably the only real usage of trope reversal) currently coming to my mind being Lollipop Chainsaw which is a game built upon it's own hysterical wackiness and obvious over-troping that is joked about and pointed out numerous times both in game and out.

So basically only men can be brutalized in games because when women die or get hurt it's a way for would-be wife beaters to realize they want to violate all women? That sounds like the default retarded politician who wants to ban games M.O. I think even Jack Thompson wouldn't be that stupid, not to mention that's not promoting equality at all just rambling about violent games influencing real world actions which no research can even suggest is a possibility to begin with.

I really don't know how someone can still defend this and the other utter stupidity the woman constantly repeats at this point... This is beginning to turn into gaming's college marx worshipers.

Once again, she specifically states that women who are one equal footing, not being kidnapped/victimized by another man before being stolen like an item from the main character, are exempt from this trope.

And although numerous studies don't point to video games themselves causing negative behavior, Anita says it herself that these games are only part of media and how media affects us on a psychological level is very complex. It is indeed proven fact that media can affect a human being's thinking patterns and behavior. If it did not then we would not need a rating system to separate games/tv/movies into levels of violence/sexualization.

In addition she also says that this doesn't make all male gamers raging sexists. Please actually watch it from beginning to end before commenting.

I really don't know how guys like yourself can repeatedly ignore the parts that debase your argument and spout out nothing but un-educational insults without supporting your own points with unbiased fact or doing anything to push the conversation forward.

 

[wearesoneutralthatithurts]

I want to link to a text about tropes and WHY its so important to have a good representation.

Women fought always-often 25-30% of fighting people are and WERE women-but in history, its about males. If you read revolutionary army-what do you imagine? Men fighting. Not women.
But thats wrong. Media shapes us- but if almost every known scientists which gets a nobel is male this ignores the women-Watson& crick relayed on the data, searched and found out by a woman-but they got the prize. Axe makes shitty sexist adverising for a challenge were you cat win a flight into space-bit the advertisement shows every time-the astronaut-male wins the female cuz of his awesomeness. Most people didnt even realize that yhe challenge was open for both sexes-exept in some country( eg Russia-the first female astronaut was russian) its men only..
(and the one female astronaut which developed a new thing for space traveling which is now standard was introduced with "her boef stroganoff is the best, she followed her husband shes the best mother-instead of "she invented a revolutionary thing fo space travelling, is astronaut and rocks.."

Miss representation is a problem because we take this in, have it subconciously sitting there. If there is a math test and the peope have to write down their gender, women were significantly worse. Because of the notion that science is a logical-therefor manly thing and seeing much more male scientists and stuff shows that these arent for women-because we are equal now and they arent there- so it must have to do with their sex. Ist shown that children whoich grow up in traditional families with rel. rigid genderroles. 1. are more likely to live that way and 2. and more important-they dont believe as much in the competence and abilities of their mother as children which were raised in more liberal, emancipated homes where the mother works and is more independent. And if a girl learns this-that her mom is not as competent as her dad and other males and might even get pressed into rigid roles, she wont be as secure as other girls which learned that women cat do the same things and works linke men.( often feminist and independet clever women i know tell me that their mother worked and that the familie valued them and supported them like their bothers. And i know other people where thats not the case abd most of them married young, got children and shit education-and a not so little part of them is now bound at home with more children but got left-and will face a big big problem later if they got old and get only a small pension.
But thi are subjective things-but i fear that these arent so uncommon...

Here the link- its interesting especially for the people who deny that media-missrepresentation has a real impact on us.
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-article/2013/05/we-have-always-fought-challenging-the-women-cattle-and-slaves-narrative-by-kameron-hurley/

 

[l3o2828]

You know, i WANT to like Anita, i WANT videogames to have better representations of women, i WANT games to be more varied and all...But all her points are presented in such an extremist way and even without pointing all the factual errors and lack of research i am still left with a bad taste in the mouth.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Welp. I am late to the party again.

So, who took the video down? i only see people saying that it was male gamers (and i quote): "CLEARLY AND ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT EVEN IF WE DONT HAVE ANY REAL PROOF"

Anyone that isn't insanely stupid (and knows some common sense) can tell me who was who took it? because for all we know anyone could have done it, not just gamers OR males.

 

[Edl01]

Well she had more good points than last time. But even then she said some ridiculously stupid things in this video that just stopped me form taking it as seriously as I should have.
A good example of something that just made me facepalm was when she claimed that male protagonists have a:
"socially prescribed patriarchal duty to protect his wife and children"

That's right people, if your wife and/or children are kidnapped and you attempt to save them then you are a patriarchal, mysoginistic scumbag! How dare you care for and try to rescue your loved ones! If you don't want to be sexist and live in a equal couple then the right thing to do is to just ignore them being kidnapped, as the idea ofd rescuing them is just wrong!

Better than the first episode, but still had a lot of problems. Lets hope it gets better.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

You know, i WANT to like Anita, i WANT videogames to have better representations of women, i WANT games to be more varied and all...But all her points are presented in such an extremist way and even without pointing all the factual errors and lack of research i am still left with a bad taste in the mouth.

Convince this person who made this blog (about Metroid Other M sexism) to make a Kickstarter. THEN, tell him/her to make it with the same awesome quality writting he/she did for the blog, but for ALL gaming.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13373815860B43920100&i_id=13384263550I62094100&p=17