Tropes vs Women SECOND VIDEO - "Damsel in Distress: Part 2"

[tyriless]

Not perfect, but a lot of interesting ideas. It's a shame she didn't mention the moral choice aspects of Dishonored when talking about using violence as a means of revenge, since I thought that game was really progressive in the various ways it encouraged you to hold back from killing by showing the ongoing negative effects of it. I also felt like she used the word "misogynist" a little too liberally with certain examples, but it's good that she clarified exactly what she meant by "violence against women".

And with that, I am outta here, because I have a feeling that this thread is going to be painful to my mental health. ;-)

I agree with your statements that there are a lot of interesting ideas presented. I also wish she mentioned that Dishonored's different endings depend on how violent your play-through is.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with her criticizing this medium. I still enjoyed Zelda and Dishonored, but after playing them I would enjoy a game that doesn't rely on these tropes, or turns them around in unexpected ways. For example, the last two hours of Bioshock Infinite are so interesting because Booker's quest to rescue Elizabeth takes so many bizarre turns that it not only deviates from the Damsel trope, but also, outright mocks it at the same time. I would explain how, but I would rather not spoil the game.

 

[tyriless]

That's actually one the best counterarguments to Anita's criticism of Ico, I've seen. You deserve your awesome Monarch avatar. Wear it with pride.

 

[Westaway]

Why was this lady given $150,000 to read a TVTropes pages?

 

[Eremiel]

One final point I really think it does the this series great harm that Anita's tone strongly suggest she hs already made up her mind up on the subject matter at the start of the video. It conveys that she is just there passing judgement on an entire collection of media/art and its audience rather than trying to facilitate discussion on where this media falls short and how it can be improved.

That has been my main problem with her in general. She does not offer a non-biased view or an objective discussion of anything. She pretty much gives the impression that her way is the right way (hence the frequent use of 'clearly') and that there're no shades of grey, no nothing. She's passing judgement because she's completely infallible.

Same thing with her non-"tropes vs women" videos.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

does she not have the budget to switch outfits ?
enjoyed the summary in the last 3 mins.
should be renames "Tropes vs Women; the Industry is out of Ideas!"

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I think I would take a lot more away from these videos if I agreed with her, but I fundamentally disagree that there's anything wrong with the Damsel in Distress trope. I do agree that violence against women serves little real purpose, but saving a woman, or a child of either gender, is a perfectly valid motivation for a male character. In the real world there are some very few things that men would go to the ends of the Earth for. Among them are likely wealth, power, family/friends or a woman.

 

[The Great JT]

Okay. I don't disagree with her, but I can't say I'm seeing eye-to-eye either. The Damsel In Distress and its ilk have been storytelling devices since there have been stories. Video games aren't the first to use them, sure as salt aren't going to be the last, but they are the first to actively include the player/interactor/whatever you want to call the person who plays the character that drives the story forward, which I think is where the issue is coming from. I do somewhat wish the "Damsel/Dude In Distress" would just flat-out die, but I think we've got a better chance to see an open, level-headed debate on the topic show up on the internet first, and we all know that the internet will never, ever let that happen.

I do think Sarkeesian is doing the right thing here, making a video series that doesn't out-and-out demonize mediums for using tropes like this but going after the tropes themselves, but I do sort of wish that she'd go after more mediums than just video games. Again, games aren't the only perpetrators.

 

[Marik2]

Really thought she was gonna put The Boss in this video or put that B&B corps from MGS4. Would have gotten mad if she put The Boss there as a bad example.

Some points were good but at the end she like dropped the ball

 

[TAGM]

Oh look, the trolls inundated the new episode with inappropriate contents/copyright claims and managed to get the video taken down.

Who is it who's trying to stifle discussion again?

I know the answer, teacher! Or, at least, the answer to who's stifling discussion the most. (Because, newsflash, more then one person can do that at a time!)
It's not the trolls, actually. They're doing all right (as in, they're managing to stifle it, not that I support them doing the same thing other people complain about in Anita), but they're not the worst.
Anita? Nah. Comment blocking, sure, but hey, that's not the worst.

It's people like You. People who see one bad thing happening to Anita, or her videos, and assuming - for some bizarre reason - that this somehow proves that all her detractors are just trolls and fuck wits. If you're going to use her video being taken down by a few rogue trolls (And it can be a few rogue trolls, or hell, just one dedicated rogue troll, the way youtube's DMCA claims work!) to make a sarcastic comment that basically implies that the claim that she stifles discussion is disproved by this is not only a logical fallacy, it's poisoning the discussion by discrediting one side because of the actions of a few individuals. It'd be like me taking Anita's actions and using them to criticize every feminist in the world. And before you say it, yes I realize that some people have done basically that, but if you're going to bring that point up as an attempt to prove that I'm wrong, then you're doing the same thing you did last comment.

Spoiler: Here's where it goes less to you, and more to everyone.

And ya know, I'm realizing, at last, it's not Anita I'm getting angry with, it's all the people who do this sort of illogical shit. Watching Anita's videos are a bit like slamming my head against a brick wall, in my personal and honest opinion. Why? It's basically what she doesn't say rather then what she does, and the way she got her videos up. (Which, beyond reasonable doubt, was through troll baiting and funneling the resulting hatred into just the right place to play the victim and rake in the moolah) But all that pain pales in comparison to trying to get my points across to reading the comments (Where you can, anyway) which feels more like smacking my head against a fucking LANDMINE. Trying to talk to people who think a few trolls are all that are standing up against her, to make valid points even while their minds rush to the idea that I'm just a female hating bigot who can't imagine playing Call of Duty or LoZ as a FEMALE, that I'm some sort of misogamist troglodyte that doesn't want to see progression in video gaming, talking to people who are under the impression that because Anita can give some "concrete facts" (with a few bits missing, but still, right?) that she should be defended to the death or something, is outright fucking depressing.

Here's what I think: If you're supporting females in games, that's fine. Personally, right now, I think the industry is in a sorry state in terms of that. What with that stuff revealed recently about it being hard as shit to get a female in a game with that most disgusting and unprofitable things as a stable relationship, it's clear the industry - or at least the big PR departments that OK games based on profit potential alone - need to seriously change their attitudes before the entire thing falls in on their heads. But supporting Anita, a woman who, never mind offering solutions, has not even addressed these issues, (And I don't see how she really could, short of just chucking the current format away or doing this as a side video) isn't helping. It isn't forward movement, and hell, It may not even be 100% standing still, because what with all the criticisms that have to be leveled, some people in PR might just get the idea that no, we really DO hate women and hope they go away!

And if you don't read this, declare it TLR? Fine. Whatever. I'm not even sure you deserve to be made to read it anyway, because really, this wasn't directed at you alone - Your comment is a tiny little thing, it doesn't really require or even deserve this kind of mass breakdown of everything wrong with the idea. this comment is, in essence, a culmination of 8 or 9 months of watching people jump into this thing and say some of the most illogical things, directed in one direction, I.E. You. Is that petty? Sure. That's why I say you probably don't deserve or need it.
And if you agree with her? Fine. I have my issues, but at the same time, I can understand how people would agree with her. Even if you're doing it to make gaming look better, that's OK! I don't mind that, either, 'cause honestly I would like it if gaming in general got a bit more respect by, ya know, anyone besides us. But if you're going to get illogical about it, if you're going to stiffen discussion by discrediting a side with logical fallacies, that needs to be addressed, and it's doing no favors to anyone.

 

[Erttheking]

Hey, if anyone wants to have a clam and rational discussion on the issue, I'll be willing to talk to you. Just reply to me or send me a PM.

 

[Estelindis]

Why was this lady given $150,000 to read a TVTropes pages?

Because we wanted to. Frankly, it was our money and we were entitled to fund her cause if we wanted. If you want to be outraged by what people do with *your* money, feel free, but there is absolutely no need to take Anita to task on our behalf. If we feel she's not doing what she said she would, we can tell her ourselves.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

In fact, a lot of it is really sexist in stating that because it happens to women it is somehow worse.

Congratulations, sir. You've managed to hit the nail directly on the head.

Modern "feminists" like miss Anita aren't interested in equality. *shrug*

 

[Darken12]

However the two way street has a lot more traffic going the way of society influencing the media. And you can't reasonably expect companies to make losses and go bankrupt in an attempt to reshape society. Maybe if we lived in a communist society that would work. But in our world that would just lead to bankruptcies.

What you're saying is not how things actually happen. A company will not go bankrupt if it tries to appeal to niche audiences. Otherwise, no company would ever produce games for genres that aren't FPS. Companies still make horror, simulation, fighting, sports and RPG games. So long as there is a need that a company can fill, it will not go bankrupt. If it goes bankrupt, it's due to poor business practices, not due to what need it chooses to fill. Look at the recent gaming news, you have companies who declare titles who've sold millions and millions of copies as "failures". That's not a problem of the title itself, that's a problem with the company's expectations and business practices.

Sure i can blame women. There are plenty of triple A games who don't use said tropes. If women were interested in triple A games they would buy those games and that would send a strong signal. However it's obvious they are not interested in the typical triple A game genre discussed here. So the state of the industry is very much shaped by that. And i've yet to see any tangible evidence that the industry is part of the problem. Still waiting on market researches proving that.

Actually, they're already doing that. Bioware has a significant female demographic precisely because it tries to do its best to appeal to women. There is most certainly a place in the industry for women, and women have shown that when invited in, they will take that step. But I don't think the game industry is smart enough to realise this. I genuinely believe that most of the gaming industry thinks women in general just don't like video games, and they never stop to challenge those assumptions.

However her way of education can be compared to that of a preacher "educating" people about creationism. She makes a lot of unfounded assumptions. Sure she is right about the use of tropes, but so what? Tropes are used... ok... whatever? And than whenever she's trying to explain why that overuse is bad it goes in the world of wild speculations. That's not education.

While I agree that there are things she could improve upon, the message she is trying to impart is most certainly educational in nature. She's trying to explain why she feels that the overuse of a trope is harmful. Whether you agree with her or not is a completely different matter.

You assume diversity is a universally desired trait. You may consider it better, but that doesn't apply to everyone. As such it is merely an opinion.

Of course it's an opinion. That's why I keep repeating it's perfectly fine if you disagree. She's trying to sell you an idea. If you buy into it, good. If not, oh well. You don't have to care.

It has gravity though.

Not really, no. The gravity, when it exists at all, is always on the feelings of the male hero.

That's what people have been saying about GTA and the only thing it seems that fictional violence can desensitize you to is more fictional violence.

You misunderstand. I didn't mean to imply that if you overuse a trope, you are desensitised to its real life occurrences. I meant that you become desensitised to further uses of the trope. If we brutalise women in games over and over, we will become quite used to seeing women brutalised in video games. You can see why this might make gaming an unappealing place for women.

If someone commits suicide right in front of you that would also be shocking, and it wouldn't be vulgar would it?

If it's solely intended to shock me, then yes, it would be vulgar. However, I'm sure that very few suicidal people kill themselves solely to shock others, so the example does not apply.

What games do this? What games don't portray it as a horrible thing period? I didn't watch the video because people said there were spoilers (that and other reasons)

Then I would have to spoil you. She has the examples in the video. There is a difference between "a horrible thing for the hero" and "a horrible thing for the victim". Games emphasise the former and let you feel the latter if your empathy so desires. The kidnapped/murdered women are not allowed long monologues to detail what they're feeling, we rarely see them at all throughout the game, and we barely get an idea of what their personalities are. They become disposable tools meant to flesh out the male hero. It's very hard to trust that the game industry has respect for the issue when they don't care enough about the woman they're kidnapping/murdering to give her a personality or have her share the spotlight along with the male hero. It calls into question the "terribleness" of the act when they haven't cared about the woman at all throughout the game.

In other words they have but you want to downplay it.

No, not really. A woman screaming "Help me!" while the male hero gets a five-minute monologue on how sad he feels that he has failed to protect his loved one is not egalitarian. Some women get less than that! Some of them are found dead, and we don't even get the token reaction at all.

Wouldn't trivialization be the game portraying it as not a big deal?

You don't understand the point she's making. She's not saying that the issue is trivialised in-game. She's saying that the overuse of the trope trivialises a real-world issue. When it's used so thoughtlessly and often, without care, respect or gravity, developers get across the feeling that they think violence against women is no big deal. "Oh, we need a motivation for the hero? Meh, just kill his wife." "We have a sequel? Meh, kill the mother." "Another sequel? Meh, kill the daughter." And so on. That's where the trivialisation lies, in the way the game industry gives off the impression that it thinks women are not only almost never protagonists, but also thinks they're good only as prizes and/or victims.

 

[Beretta]

I wonder why Heavenly Sword never seems to get a mention for Strong Female Protagonist.
Nariko's not dressed to impress women, but the rest fits. Gets Damseled, rescues herself, passes the Bechdel Test, and even transcends her own motivation.
Not common, right?

 

[Flames66]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. She is not saying these tropes shouldn't happen, she just wants women to be better represented in games. Her videos so far seem to be fairly well researched and make a lot of sense.

 

[EyeReaper]

So... according to her, women should never die in a video game, because that's disempowering and sexist.

And here's a person that didn't watch the whole video. Because she said and explains, repeatedly, at the end that that's not what she trying to say.

Well done! How far in did you actually get?

Of course i didn't finish watching the video. i wasted ten minutes, I'm not gonna waste a half an hour on this drivel