Turn Based Combat

[Continuity]

in many RPG's you generally see a turn based combat system
some take place in turns
some (most) final fantasy games have that arbitary recharge time system (unsure what the name is)
now consider the gameplay of say Oblivion, as it is an action system it creates a sort of realtime feeling and in general ends up becoming a very immersive expierience, however turn based combat is so broken up so arbitary so slow so....well its not AS good as an real time system.

the basic question is: How can a turn based combat system be immersive or work in sync with story?

Maybe it cant be as immersive but it allows for tremendous detail and options, the VATS system in FO3 is just an ugly hack that gives a tiny glimpse into what TBC offers. Plus TBC adds forethought and strategy where with FPS you have mostly action and tactics.

TBC has its value and its place, I don't want to see it in every game but I don't want to see it disappear all together either.

Edit: having read some of the other replies I agree with many that realism =/= immersion, you can get immersed in rogue FFS and that has ASCII graphics.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

You use it in a game that works well with that system? Sorry, I kinda don't see what you're getting at here.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

ah woops you are correct, i haven't played them in a long time so forgot the numbering.

and fair enough, i've played kotor 50+ times and it still isn't old to me to this day (just got done with another kotor II playthrough about a week ago.) while the JK games i played only a handful of times all together. so guess we are in agreement just on polar opposites of the spectrum.

Well my favourite genre is FPS, so turn-based combat is a no-go for me. VATS in the new Fallouts is an exception, as it's optional and often comes really handy.
It comes down to what people prefer. Turn-based is no combat for me. I like it fast and tense.
I think I should play some of those older games again....including KotOR and the JK-Series...

i will agree VATS is super handy, i just got done doing my first full run through of all the new DLC for new vegas, and if you don't use vats, you are easily screwed.

and don't mention that...it's going to make me want to re-install, and then there goes my whole weekend =\

 

[Firstmark_Bannor]

in many RPG's you generally see a turn based combat system
some take place in turns
some (most) final fantasy games have that arbitary recharge time system (unsure what the name is)
now consider the gameplay of say Oblivion, as it is an action system it creates a sort of realtime feeling and in general ends up becoming a very immersive expierience, however turn based combat is so broken up so arbitary so slow so....well its not AS good as an real time system.

the basic question is: How can a turn based combat system be immersive or work in sync with story?

I have to disagree with some of the assumptions made in your post. Why do you assume turn based battle system are not immersive? Honestly Haveing grown up with ATB (active time battles) and turn based combat in general i find Games like Oblivion not only unimmersive but a little on the hard to get into side. It has always been my opinion that immersion pretty much relies solely on the Quality of writing and has very little to do with the game play. I prefer turn based combat in rpgs.

ok Oblivion is a bad example try sometihng like Fable of the Witcher, in combat you dont just stand there thinking of the best strategy to defeat a monster, because by the time you have thoguht of one they have probably killed you. Immersion requires more player involvement, in these BETTER examples, you need to respond quikly, either dodge block counter attack, whatever you can do, not waiting and deciding.

i personally haven't seen an extremeley immersive turn based system, and even though most of these games have some of the best stories ive rarely seen one work in sync with the story as things such as random encounters comletley break any sense of flow and coherent connection to the characters, take FFXIII's Hope. In the cutscenes he is a complete wimp even afraid of his own teamates but in combat he is suddenly courageos and willing to fight. Im not saying that they are completley unimmersive i say it because alot of these ssystems are designed out of sync with the story they often fall flat, maybe they could of made Hope like reluctant to attack or when he did he would oftne miss or his attacks would be the weakest, although this might cause some balance issues, it could of made the battle system more immersive.

Two things, 1) FF13 had alot more problems than just immersion and shouldn't be used as any sort of example, except as a horrible warning of how not to make a game.
2) The examples you've given DO NOT CREATE IMMERSION FOR ME. Having to react quickly all the time to everything that happens is one of the fastest ways to break immersion for me.
Taking your time and thinking things through is one of the best ways to create immersion. You were right Oblivion was a bad example of immersion but so are Fable and The Witcher. How honestly can you become immersed in your characters world if you don't stop to contemplate their plight?
You mentioned you've never played and immersive turn based rpg. I have one for you, It's called Legend of legaia. It combines the best aspect of fighting games and rpgs to create a truly unique system that sucks you in. Combined with a deep and touching story, Its the best example i can come up with.

 

[pablogonzalez]

the basic question is: How can a turn based combat system be immersive or work in sync with story?

Do you mean "immersive" as in "enthralling, keeping you glued to your seat, or the more widely used definition, "brown heavy first person shooter?"

Because with the former, turn-based combat kept me glued to my seat in many of the pre-X final Fantasy games.

im insulted )
jesys me with everyone else are tired with the fps standard today
lets get something more like HL2 or Bioshock
immersive i meant as mentally involving the player to a more realistic degree
in real time combat you have to respond quickly, in turn based it is so slow and systematic not that it is totally bad, i enjoyed FFX but
take ffXIII
how the story is totally disconected with gameplay

say: the "hope" guy is a total wimp
he cant even stand up to his assosciates
then combat starts and he is willing to fight these monstorous creatures no worries.

that's what im asking how turn based combat could not break up the game's flow and story
and with these suggestions
perhaps we could improve TBC games like the final fantasy series

 

[Something Amyss]

90% of that post was unreadable. However:

immersive i meant as mentally involving the player to a more realistic degree

Again, setting up false standards. That implies that real-time is needed to immerse someone. To which I say, bull.

Use your bloody imagination. People were "immsersed" in media well before realtime games were developed. People get immersed in tabletop RPGs, though a full turn can take anywhere form minutes to hours.

"Realism" is not immersion. That's just ridiculous, and it's the same logic that sets up brown FPSes as "immersive."

to be immersive, one needs merely to be engaging. This is easily done with good storytelling, moreso than with simply making somethign "realtime" or "first person."

Is my generation REALLY so imagination starved that they can no longer be engaged in any but the most direct sense?

 

[pablogonzalez]

90% of that post was unreadable. However:

immersive i meant as mentally involving the player to a more realistic degree

Again, setting up false standards. That implies that real-time is needed to immerse someone. To which I say, bull.

Use your bloody imagination. People were "immsersed" in media well before realtime games were developed. People get immersed in tabletop RPGs, though a full turn can take anywhere form minutes to hours.

"Realism" is not immersion. That's just ridiculous, and it's the same logic that sets up brown FPSes as "immersive."

to be immersive, one needs merely to be engaging. This is easily done with good storytelling, moreso than with simply making somethign "realtime" or "first person."

Is my generation REALLY so imagination starved that they can no longer be engaged in any but the most direct sense?

and how is turn based engaging?
story is great
gameplay could be taking place in disneyland
its just broken up

use my imgaination?
isnt that what the story is for? why they design the characters so extravagently?why they make a unique fantasy world?
i personally do not find how the systematic gameplay could be engaging
sure there is good storytelling
but look at real time combat
it is obvious how it is engaging the reaction needed to survive a monster attack
of course realism is not the same as immersion but instead of a having to make a series of different selections you genuinley have to react (fuck off about fpses ok? you dont like the brown ones neither do i)
thats how these games engage you

the characters as an themselves need the player

final fantasy is on the verge of playing itself

 

[Baralak]

Final Fantasy XIII has the best turn based combat system that I've ever experienced. The features and design keep it fast paced and strategic enough that it gives it a sense of real time combat as well. Turn based combat with real time elements. I think it's quite an excellent system, possibly the best that turn based combat can ever get.

If we swapped it around, real time combat with turn based elements? I'm not so sure that would work out as well, off the top of my head at least.

I agree entirely, and I hope they keep the same system in XIII-2

 

[kayisking]

There's no problem with turn based combat. Plenty of games do it very well. I actually prefer it in certain games. But it really comes down to a case by case scenario. It wouldn't work in Call of Duty, but for games like Final Fantasy X, Legend of Legaia, or Suikoden II it works perfectly.

Incidentally, I think that was the biggest complaint about FFXIII's combat. It was too fast paced. Combat was moving at such a hectic rate that you couldn't select your actions fast enough. Especially when you had 6 or so slots and 20 different spells. As a result, you largely end up just selecting "auto-attack" to let the game select the most effective attacks itself. And at that point, you're not really playing your own game anymore. If you think turn based combat is boring, letting the game play itself is even more boring.

I thought it worked well in KotOR..

That wasn't really turn-based, though.

You just had the option to pause the game. It didn't really force you to.

OT: Yeah, I don't like turn-based games. I just don't enjoy them.

Um. I hate to break it to you, but KOTOR was a turn based combat system. I believe it works out that 2 seconds is one turn. If you're in combat and you don't select an action, your character just automatically chooses to use a basic attack. You could que up to three actions ahead of time. It was fast paced, yes. But it was fast paced turn based combat. And nothing you or anyone else say will change that. I think Bioware even described it as turn based combat.

Oh, and it actually plays like Dungeons and Dragons, you just don't see the "dice rolls" unless you check your combat log.

The combat abilities may have time delays, but all units can MOVE at the same time, which disqualifies KOTOR from boing turn-based = 1 move at a time.

I don't agree, why can't a turn-based game have everyones turn at the same time. Frozen Synapse is a great example of this.

 

[MagnetoHydroDynamics]

People who remorselessly bash turnbased combat are forgetting huge successes like, say... Chess.

I agree that some turn based combat is pretty out of place, and yes, sometimes the pause-the-action is much more fluid.
But still, turn based combat has its place, especially in more metaphoric(?) games where tactics are more important than level grind.

Preferably I would like to see more of Inuyasha Demon Tournament [http://games.adultswim.com/demon-tournament-action-online-game.html]'s style of turnbased combat.
Free browser flash game. Go give it a play for a few minutes.

 

[John the Gamer]

Try Silent Storm/Silent Storm Sentinels. Those two games do it really well.

 

[x-machina]

A week ago I probably would have agreed that turn based combat sucks. But, I just discovered Persona 3 Portable, and have been playing almost endlessly. Turn based combat, can have depth and be very fun.

 

[veloper]

There's no problem with turn based combat. Plenty of games do it very well. I actually prefer it in certain games. But it really comes down to a case by case scenario. It wouldn't work in Call of Duty, but for games like Final Fantasy X, Legend of Legaia, or Suikoden II it works perfectly.

Incidentally, I think that was the biggest complaint about FFXIII's combat. It was too fast paced. Combat was moving at such a hectic rate that you couldn't select your actions fast enough. Especially when you had 6 or so slots and 20 different spells. As a result, you largely end up just selecting "auto-attack" to let the game select the most effective attacks itself. And at that point, you're not really playing your own game anymore. If you think turn based combat is boring, letting the game play itself is even more boring.

I thought it worked well in KotOR..

That wasn't really turn-based, though.

You just had the option to pause the game. It didn't really force you to.

OT: Yeah, I don't like turn-based games. I just don't enjoy them.

Um. I hate to break it to you, but KOTOR was a turn based combat system. I believe it works out that 2 seconds is one turn. If you're in combat and you don't select an action, your character just automatically chooses to use a basic attack. You could que up to three actions ahead of time. It was fast paced, yes. But it was fast paced turn based combat. And nothing you or anyone else say will change that. I think Bioware even described it as turn based combat.

Oh, and it actually plays like Dungeons and Dragons, you just don't see the "dice rolls" unless you check your combat log.

The combat abilities may have time delays, but all units can MOVE at the same time, which disqualifies KOTOR from boing turn-based = 1 move at a time.

I don't agree, why can't a turn-based game have everyones turn at the same time. Frozen Synapse is a great example of this.

To differentiate it from the original turn-based mechanic that plays very differently.
No point in mixing up STB, RTWP and TB.

 

[Johnny Impact]

Turn based combat allows many things that real time cannot even dream of.
First and foremost, it promotes tactical thinking and gives a player some breathing space.
Second, it makes the game much more based on your intellectual ability rather than your physical ability
Third, the turn based combat in final fantasy series is shit and a joke. If you would like to see some real turn based combat then play Frozen Synapse, Jagged Alliance or X-Com.
Calling some mechanic broken after only seeing the most horrible implementation of it is what ignorant people do.
What if I call the FPS genre shitty as whole after playing Daikatana?

Oh and turn based combat also makes it easier to manage units, cumbersome but easier

Listen to what sane person says.

I personally do not have the absurd reflexes needed to be really good at a game like CoD. I also find such games to be less enjoyable due to the complete lack of thought or strategy (please don't tell me there is strategy or complex thinking in CoD. If you think there is, you don't know what strategy is). It's not that I hate FPS, far from it. I own Crysis, Doom 3, two CoD games, and many others. I just recognize video games can be something more than a twitch reflex test.

I greatly enjoy Civilization and the older turn-based games: XCOM, Fallout, stuff like that. I think it's about time. FPS is about this moment, this instant. Turn-based is about the future. Understanding not just where you are, but where you're going to be on your next move, or three or four or even ten turns ahead, creates a challenge FPS can't offer.

I didn't realize people had such a hate on for turn-based. Is it that you FPS types haven't tried the right games, I wonder, or is it that you don't enjoy strategy or thinking at all? That sounds insulting, I know, but it's not meant to be. As I said, I own FPS games. Sometimes I don't want to think. Sometimes I just want to double tap dudes in the head. It's only that I like chocolate AND peanut butter and don't understand why everyone else doesn't.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Every style of play has its place. And realism != immersion. I found my self much more immersed in Late night 2E Ravenloft PnP sessions than in Oblivion. Meanwhile I felt like I had more control over my party in The Temple of Elemental Evil (post fan bugfixes) than in World of Warcraft. That said, I still enjoy Oblivion and at one point in time I could say the same for WoW, I just don't find them nearly as immersive.

 

[Something Amyss]

final fantasy is on the verge of playing itself

The last couple games, maybe. But if you're going to argue that prior, I'm just going to roll my eyes.

And for the love of God, make your posts legible.