Twighlight readers I have a question (Flamers stay away)

[Cheesus333]

I'm a writer myself, OP, but I stay clear of Twilight for a reason.

Obviously Twilight is successful, as you've observed, but look at how it's held in literary circles: despised as some sort of ink-and-paper antichrist and cruelly mocked by those who know better.

I don't know about you, but I want my writing to be respected and praised, so Twilight isn't what I look to for inspiration. But that's just me, there is a lot to learn from Ms. Meyer if you have the time and the desire. Especially if you're after tips on what not to do.

 

[Riding on Thermals]

I can't describe what was good about the plot in any detail because it is the plot. Premise, is the little 1-2 line description of the overall conflict in the story. Something like: "teenage girl falls in love with vampire." This sucks. The premise for harry potter is no better. Plot, is the way the story unfolds from start to finish, the story, all the twists and small conflicts and questions that aren't answered until the end ect... Both harry potter and twilight have good plots. Admittedly, the plot of twilight was predictable, but it was still well executed, and interesting, and even managed to have at least one minor twist per book that you didn't expect, occasionally even a big one. Twilight has merit because it is interesting, and it keeps you reading, which is the end goal of any modern piece of fiction. Read the link in my earlier post if you still don't get it.

Thanks for the ENGL 100 definition of a plot, that was helpful.

What specific revelations of twists and small conflicts made the book outstanding? In Ender's Game it's revealed

Spoiler

he's commanding actual pilots at the bugger homeworld via ansible and the subsequent destruction of an entire sentient speies

, that was an excellent revelation of the plot. Can you remember a single plot point that was ideally revealed in Twilight, because being able to cite OP a time where Meyer manipulated the plot expertly will let them study that and find something for their own writing.

I'm also curious how you found the plot predictable and yet still defend it as well-executed? The very nature of a predictable plot means that it is derivative and formulaic unless you're some kind of undiscovered literary genius. I'm degenerating into flaming... I digress. I would like to know what you specifically enjoyed about the plot, as someone who read the stories. As I thought almost the exact opposite about the quality of the plot.

Though, to be fair, I found it quite predictable as well. So we don't entirely disagree

 

[the rye]

To all those who read Twilight and enjoyed it
I'd like to ask what was enjoyable about it.
I'm asking as a a young writer who knows there is something to learn from a series that has sold over 89 million copies.
so please tell me what was so enjoyable there has to be something that kept you going.
and all those who want to take this a an opportunity to flame the series, look somewhere else.

If you want to be a writer you should attend a creative writing class, read and write alot and find what some actual writers have said about how they write.

Oh and you shouldn't be concerned with how many books you sell rather write a story in the genre you enjoy writing in.

 

[endisforever]

Really piss easy reading!

And to your doesn't it freak you out about him being 100 - We like older guys

 

[Shoggoth2588]

It's a story about young love being able to survive and thrive I think. Reading it from Bella's point of view, who is deeply in love with Edward in a love-at-first-sight kind of thing. The idea that someone else who is so extremely different and yet loves you just as much is something that a lot of the readers (that is to say, the target audience) want to lose themselves in.

 

[MasterChief892039]

I think you could aspire to better, OP.
Example - Harry Potter is similar to Twilight in that it started out as a book, then became a popular book series, which then became a ridiculously popular movie series. And considering that the Harry Potter franchise is worth way more than Twilight (in terms of money, not quality, though you could argue that too), I'd say you should be asking what makes that franchise popular.

Stephenie Meyer grabbed a couple million off the Twilight series. JK Rowling is a goddamn billionaire.

 

[gmergurl]

To be honest, I don't really know, if I had to make a guess, it's because I started reading after my first boyfriend dumped me. :/ Seriously. I somehow found the book and started reading the day after I got dumped from my first boyfriend and I fell completely in love with it. Probably had something to do with my broken heart and the whole "true love" thing.... probably. Because looking back I really only like Jacob (TEAM JACOB FTW!!!), I find both Bella and Edward flippin' annoying (of course I have a new boyfriend now sooooo....)

I've ALWAYS loved vampires and werewolves.given both were EXTREMELY wimpified in this book... so that probably had nothing to do with it..... >>


but other than that... not really anything special... it's a total girl drama-love trip, I completely understand why people don't like it and find it annoying.


Edit: After reading some of the other posts regarding the "parallelism to Wuthering Heights." No, just no. Wutheirng Heights is an AMAZING story, if you have not already, please, please do so in the near future. Even though I am a fan, every time Bella/Edward was compared to Catherine and Heathcliff I wanted to puke. It honestly made me question whether or not Meyer actually read the book herself, but she might've been high on ego-trips too. The only parallelism is the stuff Meyer forced in their "Oh I'm like Catherine and he's like Heathcliff." I call bull. Bella/Edward is not even close to Catherine/Heathcliff. Romeo and Juliet is much more adequate because those were two teenagers who were too stupid to think things through.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

Okay so I hated it but at least I read it, also as a writer looking to see what made it popular.

The best answer I can come up with is that all of the characters are utterly one dimensional. Now normally that would be an insult but in Twilight's case it allows for a complete projection of yourself into the characters. Think the same way that Master Chief or DoomGuy have no faces or distinguishing personalities beyond what the player gives them, and apply it in a literary sense.

But if you are aspiring to be a writer I wouldn't follow Twilight's lead for several reasons. Firstly, Twilight is not good writing, sure it sells but there are other forms of bad writing that also sell, without you having to plumb the depths quite as Twilight has done.

Secondly Twilight has already cornered that market. The most similar would be the teenage boy market that James Bond used to appeal to, but even then the plot will have to be a little more complex than 'girl obsesses between beastiality and necrophilia for five books.'

Third, related to above there are lots of writers now for the 'Dark Romance' section, as Waterstones calls it. You'd be competing not only against the industry leader for bland romance novels for teenage girls, but against the hundreds of imitators, some better than Twilight, some worse, who crowd the shelves. In the same way that a writer of generic 'fiction' will get lost in the massive ranges of shelves, your book would be lost amongst the sea of Dark Romances.

Fourth, there are other books that sell brilliantly without the Twilight model. Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief, defined characters, simple but archetypal stories, recently got a movie deal. Harry Potter, defined characters, simple but archetypal stories, biggest selling books ever. Artemis Fowl, defined characters, very complex and detailed stories, well regarded and winners of several awards. Skulduggery Pleasant, defined characters, cimple and complex stories with archetypal and new elements, well regarded winners of awards.

Twilight is really the odd one out, the only book series in a long time that has done so much with hundreds of pages of pulp mush and no characterisation beyond 'I wuv Edward so huggy muggy much.'

Aspire to better. Twilight is not good writing, it just touched on a market at the right moment. That market and that style of writing are now gone, in the same way that jumping on the Harry Potter bandwagon became pointless nearly twelve years ago. Just write and try and find the new market if you can.

 

[PunkRex]

I never read the books but I watched some of the movies and altough I hated them im glad to see someone not just drolling on about how they thought it was the WORST FING EVAR!!!

I dont know if you care what I think as im not in the demograpth you asked but from what I could make out, fan service can take you a long way, even if done in a way I would consider bad.

 

[RA92]

I'm asking as a a young writer who knows there is something to learn from a series that has sold over 89 million copies.
so please tell me what was so enjoyable there has to be something that kept you going.

Well, if you want a formula, here it is: a girl needs to be saved by a strong, dominant, impassive man, who in return is emotionally saved by her psychological strength. Also throw in lots of aspects of 'undying love'.

Also, <url=http://www.cracked.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/noseriouslywhy.jpg>hot sexy vampires!

Basically, as the greatest writer of the 21st century puts it:

Twilight is not a vampire book, it is Hello Kitty caliber softcore pornography for First Level Goths. -Robert Brockway

Wiser words never uttered...

.
And all those who want to take this a an opportunity to flame the series, look somewhere else.

Whoops.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Relatable characters.

Oka, no seriously, it was the perfect characters. The whole thing is generic (no I'm not hating, I dont hate the subject, I hate the fans and sometimes the author) but that works for it, cause its a book that targets its niche group, knows it, and plays itself out.

Its basically a female harry potter book (Oh yeah, I did just go there). THere's something in it for everyone, and you either bought one of the books to see what its about, as a gift for someone else, or cause oyu genuinely enjoy it.

 

[DemonicVixen]

To all those who read Twilight and enjoyed it
I'd like to ask what was enjoyable about it.
I'm asking as a a young writer who knows there is something to learn from a series that has sold over 89 million copies.
so please tell me what was so enjoyable there has to be something that kept you going.
and all those who want to take this a an opportunity to flame the series, look somewhere else.

Sexily portrayed characters, the soppy relationship story is something I personally would love to have (a guy who tries his best to protect me). Plus I love vampires and wolves.
Something about Bella and Edward's relationship appeals to me and makes me jealous to read it.
The book is captivating, always making you wonder what will happen next. The story flows, you always know who's who and what's what.

I've found, being a young writer myself, that people need the story to be simple yet enjoyable. You dont want it too complicated or else they will lose interest or not understand it. You also need to make sure that the story line is something "unusual". There are thousands of vampire books out there, thousands of murder mysteries, so why should your's be different? Characters should be clear and concise, true readers and/fans will pick up on the slightest little flaw such as saying her hair was blond when earlier you said it was brown.
You need lots of description to make sure the reader can "be in the story". They need to see what the characters can see, and yet, be able to leave enough for imagination.

Good luck in story writing

 

[HellsingerAngel]

-Quoted so you can see my response more easily-

It appeals to its demographic, plain and simple. It's a love story aimed at tweens and near-sexual peak women who are both looking for that "perfect guy" to be with, with the slight bias being towards the tweens. It's a story that caters to the blooming sexuality of young girls who are insecure and want that perfect guy to notice them, protect them and be with them forever without wanting them to change too quickly. This is shown through Edward's watchfulness, his willingness to put himself in front of any danger, to even seperate himself from the one he loves so that she will not be hurt and his abstenance despite Bella being fairly forward. This is the image of the perfect guy for a teen girl. As we grow older, we realise that this image changes slightly: a woman will want a sexual relationship but not one where the guy twists her arm to have it all the time, a woman will expect a man to protect her fiercely but that there are some times where she will need to stand up for herself and even times where she will need to protect him, a woman will know that her man accepts her imperfections but that it's not a bad thing to want to strive to better herself for his sake. (If you don't realise these things and you're in your twenties, please re-evalute your life right now!) But, on the whole, it focuses on that little guilty pleasure on the inside that all women have.

As for how she achieved said infamy, it's not hard. You can write a novel two ways, really:

1. Appeal to a specific audience and make loads of cash

2. Write something close to your heart and soul and make next to nothing

Rarely do those two coincide. If they do for you, I congradulate you and am very happy for your success. If they don't, it's not the end of the world. You just need to choose which you want to pursue with your career and do it. Just remember, if you pursue mone first, it may be hard to switch to the second point later because fans will be expecting sequels and such. If you pursue the later, it may be too late for you to switch to the former when you do decide you want the fame and money. Choose wisely. =)

-The plot is good-

The plot isn't good. The characters are not good. The premise is pretty classic. The reason Twilight is good is because all of these are constructed to be aimed towards a specific demographic: I.E. tween girls and women in and around their sexual peak. It's a softcore harlequin novel, simple as that. The plot can really be summed up in:

"Girl is a loser(too normal). Perfect guy likes loser girl. Perfect guy risks everything he is to keep girl safe, reassured and happy. Second, slightly less perfect guy acts like whipped dog to girl, awaiting the moment when perfect guy messes up (which will never happen) so girl has more reassurance in her awesomeness. Trio get involved in bat-shit crazy stuff but in the end everything remains unchanged from when it started. Girl learns that she mattered all along because she made Perfect Guy not a douche. Girl lives happily ever after."

That is a terrible plot. But it works. I think what you meant was that the atmosphere is great, because Myers never seems to stray too far from her intent in everything that the world is, as well as how things are written and what she focuses on.

-points about the immortal love story not being present-

First off, I just need to comment on your mistake in Wuthering Heights. Catherine didn't marry Heathcliff because she had a chance to obtain the power and wealth needed to live comfortably with him. Her justification was that marriage meant nothing if you didn't love the person you married and in the end it's just a bunch of words that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. She planned to use the marriage to raise Healthcliff to a more reputable status. The reaosn for her not marrying Healthcliff was two-fold, the emphasis being put on her plan to raise Healthcliff into high society and less on their differing status prohibiting them being together.

More to the original point, how is Twilight any different from Wuthering Heights and Romeo and Juliet in the basic plot? The only difference I can make out is that, in the end, everything works out for Bella and Edward, where as the trial and tribulations for both of the other couples end up leading them to unsatisfactory ends. All three guys still prove their unwillingness to give into the social preasures presented before them and that they would go to great lengths to keep their chosen love safe. Conversely, it's also proven that the females of the pairings lead to the betterment of the males through emotional stability and focus while also proving in their own ways that they nhave an undying love for their suitors. All in all, they're all pretty much identical plots with varriences in only the twists and turns they take. As much as it pains me to admit it, Bella and Edward are definately a shining example of "undying love" in literature and it's done fairly well for the audience that's expected to read it.

 

[zombiestrangler]

Meh, it was all right. I tried not to think about it too much when going through it. My favorite part though was the birthing process in book 4. I laughed my ass off.

 

[Sovvolf]

: After reading some of the other posts regarding the "parallelism to Wuthering Heights." No, just no. Wutheirng Heights is an AMAZING story, if you have not already, please, please do so in the near future.

Ho don't worry, I've read Wuthering Heights. I had to study the book in high school (Given that I live in Yorkshire and thats where the book is set, I think its a required reading at school... Not too sure though, most of the kids from the other schools were studying it). Its not a story I'm a big fan of, just not my cup'o-tea (I'm probably not the target audience) however it was well written and Twilight doesn't even compare to it nor does the relationship between Edward and Bella compare to Heathcliff and Catherine.

Even though I am a fan, every time Bella/Edward was compared to Catherine and Heathcliff I wanted to puke. It honestly made me question whether or not Meyer actually read the book herself, but she might've been high on ego-trips too. The only parallelism is the stuff Meyer forced in their "Oh I'm like Catherine and he's like Heathcliff." I call bull.

When I read that shit in the book, I just laughed and said "No, no your not". I think Meyer probably read the books and missed the point completely or she'd only read the blurb of Wuthering Height and knew that it was popular.

Bella/Edward is not even close to Catherine/Heathcliff. Romeo and Juliet is much more adequate because those were two teenagers who were too stupid to think things through.

Its much more adequate but still no dice. While Romeo and Juliet were two teens who didn't stop to think things through.... Edward and Bella aren't. You could make the arguement for Bella who is a teen, however Edwards as been living for more than 100 years, he shouldn't be just some dumb teen, he should be pretty wise, mature and intelligent given how long he's lived and how often he's put himself through school with that guise of his (which I still don't get how that works out in his mind but I guess thats another discussion for another time).

Also, nothing seems to be keeping them away from each other that isn't there own decision. In Romeo and Juliet they were of rival clans, their love was forbidden and there was little they could do. Here in Twilight, there isn't, I mean they both spend quite a lot of time together in plain sight with no secrecy. Most of Edwards friends are completely aware of the fact that he's dating Bella so I don't really see whats stopping them. Admittedly I've only read the first book so maybe it turns into that later on in the series. Though my mother is a big fan and she has all the films (I bought them for her as a Christmas gift) so I've caught glimpses here and there of the movies story which are apparently close to the books, and she seems to again freely hang around Edward in plane sight.

I mean, the books are enjoyable to some and so are the movies, to those you know... More power to you, got no problems with people liking them. I just find the writer to have either missed the point or not read the books and play if she really, honestly thinks there is much of a comparison between Bella and Edward and Romeo and Juliet/ Healthcliff and Catherine.

 

[Knusper]

I'm not a fan of that series, neither have I read any of the books or seen any of the films. However, I reckon it's just that the author just knows what her target audience wants - that's what most successful children's/ teenagers' writers know.

 

[Sovvolf]

First off, I just need to comment on your mistake in Wuthering Heights. Catherine didn't marry Heathcliff because she had a chance to obtain the power and wealth needed to live comfortably with him. Her justification was that marriage meant nothing if you didn't love the person you married and in the end it's just a bunch of words that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. She planned to use the marriage to raise Healthcliff to a more reputable status. The reaosn for her not marrying Healthcliff was two-fold, the emphasis being put on her plan to raise Healthcliff into high society and less on their differing status prohibiting them being together.

You mean Catherine didn't marry Edgar? She never married Heathcliff, she died before that. However the point still stands, they were separated because of there social class. She couldn't marry him as he was at that point.

"I've no more business to marry Edgar Linton than I have to be in heaven; and if the wicked man in there, had not brought Heathcliff so low I shouldn't have thought of it. It would degrade me to marry Heathcliff now; so he shall never know how I love him; and that, not because he's handsome, Nelly, but because he's more myself than I am."

When he came back more educated and in a higher social class... He was a bitter and vengeful soul who had no interest in Catherine other than wanting to spite Edgar.

Maybe I'm making an oversimplification however when you get down to it... Thats pretty much the reason.

More to the original point, how is Twilight any different from Wuthering Heights and Romeo and Juliet in the basic plot?
The only difference I can make out is that, in the end, everything works out for Bella and Edward, where as the trial and tribulations for both of the other couples end up leading them to unsatisfactory ends. All three guys still prove their unwillingness to give into the social preasures presented before them and that they would go to great lengths to keep their chosen love safe. Conversely, it's also proven that the females of the pairings lead to the betterment of the males through emotional stability and focus while also proving in their own ways that they nhave an undying love for their suitors. All in all, they're all pretty much identical plots with varriences in only the twists and turns they take. As much as it pains me to admit it, Bella and Edward are definately a shining example of "undying love" in literature and it's done fairly well for the audience that's expected to read it.

I already explained my reasons above. I could go into much more detail as to why but I'm tired at the moment and I can't really be bothered to write it at this time. I will however happily do that some time tomorrow if the above reason is inadequate.

 

[SeriousIssues]

Abs. Abs is the reason.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

-snip-

You basically said above that the two were forced to be seperated, no? Well, I'm not sure if you read the book very closely or not, but we'll go over some key points here:

1. Heathcliff and Catherine wee never physically seperated in their teen to adult years. The only instances of the two being seperated were in their early childhood when Heathcliff was to be punished/moulded into a hoodlum and when Catherine was forced to go be taught to be a lady. They found plenty of reason to be together and found planety of ways to do it. The only thing keeping them apart was social taboo, much like the disapproving remarks Bella's family and friends give her because they think Edward is a manipulative dick. Even in the case of Romeo and Juliet, the entire reason they were apart was social taboo, though under pain of death due to treason towards their families was a bit steeper than anything Heathcliff/Catherine and Edward/Bella ever faced.

2. I've always taken to context of Catherine's quote that you put to be a double meaning. Really, their social status was neither higher nor lower within lineage (as Heathcliff was an adopted son and thus gained lineage through the Earnshaws) and more to do with their acceptance through social taboos. Heathcliff was true to himself, being what he wanted to be while Catherine was forced to become something that she had realised she was not. "It would degrade me to marry Heathcliff now; so he shall never know how I love him; and that, not because he's handsome, Nelly, but because he's more myself than I am." is a statement towards her social status being destroyed, yes, but more so that she was not her true self and she could not bear that upon herself and Heathcliff because she could not truly love him as a shell of what they were togethern back when she realised her love for him. Take that for what you will and I'm sure many a scholar would say I'm wrong, but then again, many a scholar would say it's an oversight that Heathcliff was rightful heir to what Catherine was born into because he was adopted, yet he was somehow still considered beneath everyone in lineage despite that being an excuse to make Catherine the rightful heir of the Earnshaws because of Heathcliff's reduced status. It just never flew with me and I felt there was more to it because of that inconsistancy.

 

[Ohhi]

To me it wasn't that I just enjoyed it I became immersed in the story and the characters and thus I had to keep reading until the end simple as that.