Two gay men kicked out of a pub for kissing in public
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Depends on how ugly the girlfriend is. No, i'm not just making a casual joke here, there is a double-standard and i think that the bartender would have allowed it if it were two relatively attractive heterosexual people but would have tossed out a gay couple or an ugly couple because he didn't get his jollies that way.Griffstar said:
...i wonder if he would've thrown out a lesbian couple though...
I'm surprised this would happen in London, I've visited there several times, every time seen gay-couples making out every time. Outside London I have NEVER seen gay men openly affectionate with each other.
So I think the story here is not:
"Gays kissing kicked out of pub"
but
"Gays kissing kicked out of LONDON pub"
London is a very progressive town, I think outside London very similar things have happened but it has just never amounted to anything but in London such intolerance is not tolerated.
My opinion: pub has right to refuse service but they WILL reap the whirlwind and they need to balance all the shit they will get with their own personal objection. Ultimately they need to realise they are a service industry and they will have to be more tolerant of how diverse their clientèle are.
A customer complaining is NOT reason enough as humouring the objecting customer will cost far more customers than you will keep. Homophobes are not going to travel across London for a pub that "hey, I won't see no gay in here" but many gay AND straight customers will AVOID a pub with a that reputation of: "oh, that's the fascist gay-bashing pub, not going in there"
So I think the story here is not:
"Gays kissing kicked out of pub"
but
"Gays kissing kicked out of LONDON pub"
London is a very progressive town, I think outside London very similar things have happened but it has just never amounted to anything but in London such intolerance is not tolerated.
My opinion: pub has right to refuse service but they WILL reap the whirlwind and they need to balance all the shit they will get with their own personal objection. Ultimately they need to realise they are a service industry and they will have to be more tolerant of how diverse their clientèle are.
A customer complaining is NOT reason enough as humouring the objecting customer will cost far more customers than you will keep. Homophobes are not going to travel across London for a pub that "hey, I won't see no gay in here" but many gay AND straight customers will AVOID a pub with a that reputation of: "oh, that's the fascist gay-bashing pub, not going in there"
I guess the bartender had the right to throw them out, it's a private building. That doesn't change that what he did, in my opinion, is fucking absurd. But that's why I probably wouldn't go to such a bar, you know? I would go to a place that I enjoy going to, not one that would throw me or other people out for stupid, pointless reasons.
Yes, and no. People make too big of deal about these things and need to get over their random intolerances of other people doing things in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things that annoy me about people, but I've realized that I probably annoy plenty of people with my personality and behavior in public. As long as they tolerate me, I'll gladly tolerate them so we can both do what we want to do as long as it doesn't cause physical harm to others. But then again, this is coming from someone who wouldn't care if people walked around nude in public.
Whoa whoa WHOA! There is a huge difference between intolerance and disgust.V TheSystem V said:
Simple example: you TOLERATE a baby crying (say on a plane) but the crying still distresses you. Same with poop, and other things we don't like but must tolerate.
You cannot change your feelings but you can change your thought processes, your reasoning, your actions.
Intolerance is that Asshole on the plane who snaps and starts yelling at the baby's mother unable to accept the fact that nothing the mother can do will stop the baby crying if it doesn't like being in a plane.
Tolerance is a hotelier still being disturbed/grossed-out by a gay couple but RECOGNISING that they have a right to pursue a relationship and giving them the hotel room. This depends on a deeper level of empathy, beyond the mere superficial of being physically in their position but considering their fundamental emotions. Very few people do this and could prevent so much trouble in society.
The tolerance that benefits society is tolerating what you DO NOT like, like religious folk, or conservative old people, or weird foreign cultures WITHOUT rationalising and deluding yourself that you like it.
The toughest part I've come to learn is tolerating homophobes even when you utterly disagree with them. You are never going to get people to change their destructive practices if you do not respect them, they over-react and get worse, look at Fox news.
Ok, first, sorry if this kind of response has been said, but there's 13 pages of them and I really don't have the time to go over all them.
First, I don't care what others in a bar/pub/restaurant... whatever I'm in, so as long as there staying out of my food and drink, kiss away.
Now for this I'd have to say it's the store that make's it's policies and that it needs to be something that works for most of there customers. There's never going to be a policy that's going to make everyone happy.
In this instance they likely did get a lot of complaints about what was going on and well, this one couple's comfort or many others in the place. If that's the case, I'd have had to go with the what they did as well.
Funny how they never bring up in these sort of reports if they where simply asked to stop kissing... the most logical answer to the problem and if they where asked and just didn't, I'm with the Pub 100%.
Do I think that the pub had the right to do this, yes.
Do I think the pub should be criticized for it, Yes.
Would I stop going they did this at one of the places I frequent? Most likely no. Hell. I'd probably be more mad it's been closed over this then anything.
First, I don't care what others in a bar/pub/restaurant... whatever I'm in, so as long as there staying out of my food and drink, kiss away.
Now for this I'd have to say it's the store that make's it's policies and that it needs to be something that works for most of there customers. There's never going to be a policy that's going to make everyone happy.
In this instance they likely did get a lot of complaints about what was going on and well, this one couple's comfort or many others in the place. If that's the case, I'd have had to go with the what they did as well.
Funny how they never bring up in these sort of reports if they where simply asked to stop kissing... the most logical answer to the problem and if they where asked and just didn't, I'm with the Pub 100%.
Do I think that the pub had the right to do this, yes.
Do I think the pub should be criticized for it, Yes.
Would I stop going they did this at one of the places I frequent? Most likely no. Hell. I'd probably be more mad it's been closed over this then anything.
There is no solid evidence that what they were doing was wrong or right, obviously those who didn't like what was going on would bloat up the situation to seem worse than it was and there will be those that downplayed it.
This is why I had no real opinion on the matter and left it up to interpretation.
The acion taken by the pub landlord did spark controversy and several gay men turned up to kiss outside the building in protest. So if the landlord thought that the two men was turning away customers, I don't know what he made of several men outside his business kissing. They can't be arrested, for they havn't done anything against the law.
This is why I had no real opinion on the matter and left it up to interpretation.
The acion taken by the pub landlord did spark controversy and several gay men turned up to kiss outside the building in protest. So if the landlord thought that the two men was turning away customers, I don't know what he made of several men outside his business kissing. They can't be arrested, for they havn't done anything against the law.
I think it should be the landowner's choice what's allowed on his/her premises (as do my two gay friends whom I spoke to about this incident). Unfortunately that's not the case in UK law thanks to arbitrary restriction of liberty. You will get along damnit, even if we have to remove all of your rights to make it happen!
The_root_of_all_evil said:
Well really an alien could sort this one out:
Beating event: Gay couple + thugs = obscure
Pub ejection event: gay couple + pub = big news story
Hmm, the common factor seem to be irrelevant, what has changed here is the venue:
[HEADING=2]The gay couple are NOT the story here, the story is the pub[/HEADING]
It's simple in it's brilliance, the pub story gets coverage because:
(1) it is a popular establishment, presumably of high standing acting brutish, classic "Man bites dog" fall from grace tabloid media. Unfortunately this means that violent gay-bashing is so routine it isn't a "story".
(2) People don't really care about these gay couples, they care about their liberal reputation of their society and establishments which includes tolerance of homosexuality. Homosexuality is more important overall than the people who actually are practising it.
See street thugs are "outsiders", the type of people who read the papers can happily dismiss such violent assaults as nothing to do with them. But a pub, a pub that moi might visit, oh now this is close to home, it's the hegemony of homosexual tolerance that is the story here NOT, the individuals' rights are tangential.
That's the only explanation for this glaring unbalance in media attention.
I think a lot of people are being considerate actually. The general response on this thread seems to be "well as long as they'd kick out a heterosexual couple for the same behaviour then it's ok".John Marcone said:
The thing is with it being a homosexual couple being thrown out there's a chance that they were being discriminated against. I'd really like to know more about the situation before rage happens, but there is the slight chance that the gay couple did nothing out of order.
I'm not homophoebic but homosexual couples kissing in public could be offensive to people because they may believe, for example like Roman catholics, that you should fight your urges and not commit homosexual acts.
Although being Muslim I probably won't be in a pub so I don't care.
(IF any couple, homosexual or not, kisses in a pub etc, I would want them to leave.)
+ Aren't there gay bars anyway? (I don't know)
Although being Muslim I probably won't be in a pub so I don't care.
(IF any couple, homosexual or not, kisses in a pub etc, I would want them to leave.)
+ Aren't there gay bars anyway? (I don't know)
If you go to a pub to get drunk, and you are sober enough to notice two blokes kissing, you are doing it wrong.
If you go to a pub to hang out with your mates, and you are bored enough to care about two blokes kissing, you are doing it wrong.
If you go to a pub to pick up chicks, and you are bitter enough to get annoyed over two blokes kissing, you are doing it wrong.
If you go to a pub to pick a fight, and you are enough of a cliche to to pick on two blokes kissing, you are doing it wrong.
There is no reason for any reasonable customer to get annoyed just because two blokes are kissing, so that "house rule" is completely illogical.
If you go to a pub to hang out with your mates, and you are bored enough to care about two blokes kissing, you are doing it wrong.
If you go to a pub to pick up chicks, and you are bitter enough to get annoyed over two blokes kissing, you are doing it wrong.
If you go to a pub to pick a fight, and you are enough of a cliche to to pick on two blokes kissing, you are doing it wrong.
There is no reason for any reasonable customer to get annoyed just because two blokes are kissing, so that "house rule" is completely illogical.
I never said anything was impossible or even simply difficult to believe, or that 'lesbians have it ok' <my ex-wife and I have both been physically assaulted on multiple occasions, but NEVER in a bar for 'making out' inappropriately or not> only stated the facts of the case as known in my my life experience and in my country, not yours. Which are a bit different from what I've been told by my friends in Cornwall, and Yorkshire, but *shrugs* whatever, duder.Generic Gamer said:
You sure do like to infer alot from what you read... "pious lives"? victimized"? You'd think I said gay people could turn lead into gold from the way you try to retort with so much inflated sense of morality in deconstruction. Lighten up, Shecky.
Facts of life are this, while we were together Jenn (or any lover pre/post-ex) and I had never been given a 'cease and desist' by anyone any bar, US, Canada or Mexico. But I've had multiple male gay friends get everything from 'asked to leave' to outright beat down in bars for doing much less than the 'straight' couples in the same place, same time.
Now I'm not agreeing with the pub owner but what is wrong with ALL discrimination?Dexiro said:
Racial Discrimination is wrong because race indicates nothing about character or association, anyone of any race can join the pub have a drink and meet friends and socialise normally regardless if black, asian or even irish. Racial discrimination is prejudiced discrimination.
There are many kinds of bad discrimination but if a load of KKK members walk into a pub dressed in full White-hoods and carrying racist placards, if the land-lord ejects them THAT IS DISCRIMINATION! It's not racial discrimination, but it is idealistic discrimination. There is no prejudice on people's perception of the KKK, their views are clear and reasonably unacceptable but it is still discrimination to kick them out.
The word "discrimination" just seems to be used as a catch-all pejorative for when people are treated different but don't want them treated different.
Not too long ago "discriminating" was a compliment: "Mr Jones was a highly proficient and discriminating landlord", as someone who was a good judge of character, wouldn't let a group of violent thugs into his pub to cause trouble and abuse other patrons.
But when people campaigned against "Sex discrimination" and "Race discrimination" the public got the message but failed on grammar. They didn't really know what discrimination meant, after "age discrimination" and "religious discrimination" they just assumed all discrimination was inherently bad and immoral.
It's a classic case of pejoration [http://www.langmaker.com/ml0104.htm#2c3b]. It hasn't gone all the way there, and I hope it doesn't because discriminate is far too useful a word to end up as a vague slander.
I also cannot agree it is "exactly the same" as racial discrimination because it is what they DO not what they ARE. Remember, they were not kicked out simple because it was discovered they were gay, but because they were explicit about it. Please, I appreciate your sentiment but it is hyperbole to say it is "exactly the same" and cheapens the cause, both against racial discrimination and sexuality discrimination.
The issue here is LACK of discrimination. This gay couple did the same thing as a straight couple (that would be tolerated) but that they were gay (also in itself tolerated).
What is here is hypocrisy. These pubs tolerate straight couples tongue wrestling - or at the very least are more considerate - but this reveals it is only because they are in the same sexual-orientation as the owners.
They COULD have a rule of "No heavy petting" and enforce it universally and with tact, but that would make this a VERY posh pub. Really they need to just run their business more fairly. It is the injustice that makes this such a story.
The big problem is how the far right will view it.Treblaine said:
(Pardon my interpretation)
"Couple of poofdahs allowed to kiss and cuddle in my pub? Not fucking likely mate, let's teach these gays a lesson."
Which leads to the event.
We're giving precedence to a news story which is, at best, a lapse of judgement. And ignoring a brutal attack.
When Glen Beck, or others say, "I'm not saying that homosexuals shouldn't be married but..." isn't that more strewn with hatred than "Get out if you're gonna continue kissing."
London has changed a lot in a relatively short time.Generic Gamer said:
I talked with a guy who used to live in London in the late 60's and early 70's and he commented on how many pubs would have signs outside saying something like:
"No blacks
No dogs
And No Irish!"
That's just racism, fairly separate from gays and stuff.
It's very likely the London changed AROUND this pub and the owners/landlords just kept their own views to themselves. A lot have left London for more "traditional" locales in rural areas but not all have the financial security to do that.
Remember right up until the mid 90's homosexuality was very much taboo and only comparatively recently has it been generally (but not totally) accepted. The slave trade was banned in 1833, homosexuality was not legal in England till 1967, Scotland not till 1980. Till 2003 it was ILLEGAL to teach in schools "the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship". That's 2003, not 1973.