Ubisoft engineer: "Console manufacturers" decide whitch parts of games to keep, pressure 30fps limit

[Strazdas]

How are the posters in that little topic carrying themselves? They being all very calm or jumping at absurd notions due to their hate towards pieces of plastic.

i havent read all of the responses, so i could not tell you. What few i read was people discussing whether it could be real and if so why Ubisoft is the only one.

Since when Ubisoft became "pieces of plastic"?

What else they define, PC? That is a lot of stock you're putting in them.

you want me to write a dictionary or something? PC definition is quite loose depending on how you look at it. it defines any personal computer, including consoles, however in public knowledge the deinition is associated with Windows/linux machines only. They use the second one there most of the time.

And thank you for proving my point and delivering the killing blow to yourself, you'd danced around it enough so I thought you weren't going to do it, but you did. Superiority of PC? Not in doubt to you. Superiority of multiplatform over PC..."well you see *excuses*".

ah right, lets ignore everything said and claim bullshit, a tactic that never fails you! oh, sorry, this time you changed the word to "excuses".

Logically I don't see why anyone would ever go for a cut corners

wait what? i thought you claimed there are reasons to own a console.

Thanks for adding in, but once again I never mentioned they should include a monitor in the bloody thing...merely what you've just said.

You said that people are more likely to have a TV than a monitor and thus adding monitor price to the build price is more understandable, however that is false as you can yse that "TV you are more likely to have" as a monitor so the ability to view the output is the same in both cases.

If you're going to compare PC to something that has a Blu Ray drive than the PC better have a Blu Drive also, simple as that. You can quote the 92% article that I've already spent a session discrediting if you like, it'll mean nothing.

It seems you do not comprehend. the reason PCs dont have blueray drives is because PCs dont need them. Everything that needs to come on discs can easily come on DVDs and everything else is much easier in download form. Since PCs dont need to stream games from disc, the purpose of high speed drive reader is none.

The fact they'll be less money if the holder companies weren't involved is an assumption? Okay than.

Of course it is. You are assuming that no other investor would fill in to invest into making games and instead we would just have less games. this is not economically sound, as such games manufacturing vacuum will likely be filled by investors trying to earn money. whether their investment would result in same type of games is debatable, obviuosly.

If you don't see it worth it to buy them to play those exclusives...than you never really wanted them anyway. Simple as.

There is a difference between buying a 400 euros Xbox One for a single game and buying a 30 euros steam key.

You want something bad enough and you get it...if you merely want it but don't really want to strain yourself to make it possible for you to have it than meh, it doesn't really matter to you.

ah, yes, the "Were not robbing you, you just dont want it bad enough" excuse.

Just a multiplatform guy who knows good change isn't as simple as making something disappear in a snap.

maybe you just dont want the change bad enough. wink wink.

 

[Rozalia1]

i havent read all of the responses, so i could not tell you. What few i read was people discussing whether it could be real and if so why Ubisoft is the only one.

Since when Ubisoft became "pieces of plastic"?

Clear as day what that means.

you want me to write a dictionary or something? PC definition is quite loose depending on how you look at it. it defines any personal computer, including consoles, however in public knowledge the deinition is associated with Windows/linux machines only. They use the second one there most of the time.

What is this? I didn't actually ask for a PC definition.

ah right, lets ignore everything said and claim bullshit, a tactic that never fails you! oh, sorry, this time you changed the word to "excuses".

I don't hear any convincing argument from you that PC alone is better than PC and more...oh wait, there is none. I'm unsure if I should be surprised you're the only one who has tried, or that it took this long.
I've been straight enough about it. Here is the situation, if someone were to say PC is superior you'd come in, agree, and play support. I've seen you do it enough times for the most irrelevant and minor of things in regards to PC, I'm sure you know what I'm alluding to.
Someone says something is superior to PC...oh boy we're going to hear it. The difference here is when I'm saying it I'm talking about something you shouldn't even try to argue against...but that..."passion" lets call it drives you to tell me that PC by itself is better than PC + other things.

No insults there, as I've told you everyone is like that to varying degrees, though I don't think you're carrying yourself too nicely in this situation.

wait what? i thought you claimed there are reasons to own a console.

Exclusives don't exist I suppose right. No if logically we've got someone going "Hey PCmasterace I've now seen the light, hate consoles, hate the cabal, yadda yadda. Tell me what to put in a PC". Than logically they should be recommended something that isn't cut corners.

I'm sure cut corners is easier to make people buy into what is being sold on there, but that doesn't change its absurd.

You said that people are more likely to have a TV than a monitor and thus adding monitor price to the build price is more understandable, however that is false as you can yse that "TV you are more likely to have" as a monitor so the ability to view the output is the same in both cases.

Yes TVs can be used as monitors never said they didn't. However I talked about the better monitors which you'll need if you, and hey we hear it enough care about the frames and all that shrubbery.
In regards to consoles however that isn't needed for already well documented reasons.

It seems you do not comprehend. the reason PCs dont have blueray drives is because PCs dont need them. Everything that needs to come on discs can easily come on DVDs and everything else is much easier in download form. Since PCs dont need to stream games from disc, the purpose of high speed drive reader is none.

Blu Ray drives (PCs) do exist, and I can only hope you weren't claiming that (I assume not). No the reason they aren't included is to reduce price and put it more in the favour of what the writer wants to push.
You cannot sit down and claim one box is superior than another in everyway when the box you're pushing can't even play blu rays.

Fun fact, some people like using discs. Easier to download is variable in regards to downloading. I for example could easily say that regarding myself as my connection is a good one, a lot of people wouldn't be able to.

There is a difference between buying a 400 euros Xbox One for a single game and buying a 30 euros steam key.

Clearly the enjoyment in those exclusives was not seen as enough to justify the extra needed price to have it for yourself. So they didn't want it enough.

ah, yes, the "Were not robbing you, you just dont want it bad enough" excuse.

Oh here we go, they are robbing people. Well they are the shadow cabal I suppose, they control the Mafia, Yakuza, and the like too and all that.

maybe you just dont want the change bad enough. wink wink.

What for the worse? Yeah no I don't.

 

[Strazdas]

I don't hear any convincing argument from you that PC alone is better than PC and more...oh wait, there is none. I'm unsure if I should be surprised you're the only one who has tried, or that it took this long.
I've been straight enough about it. Here is the situation, if someone were to say PC is superior you'd come in, agree, and play support. I've seen you do it enough times for the most irrelevant and minor of things in regards to PC, I'm sure you know what I'm alluding to.
Someone says something is superior to PC...oh boy we're going to hear it. The difference here is when I'm saying it I'm talking about something you shouldn't even try to argue against...but that..."passion" lets call it drives you to tell me that PC by itself is better than PC + other things.

No insults there, as I've told you everyone is like that to varying degrees, though I don't think you're carrying yourself too nicely in this situation.

see, now this is what you should have posted instead of "lol excuses".

Like i said, the argument is quite simple. PC can do everything a console can and more. Console can only do part of what PC does. Thus, console is inferior experience. now, you have two choices, to have constant superior experience or to have some superior experience and some inferior experience. Second one would obviuosly be worse choice, thus multiplayforming is a worse choice.

Exclusives don't exist I suppose right. No if logically we've got someone going "Hey PCmasterace I've now seen the light, hate consoles, hate the cabal, yadda yadda. Tell me what to put in a PC". Than logically they should be recommended something that isn't cut corners.

I'm sure cut corners is easier to make people buy into what is being sold on there, but that doesn't change its absurd.

i already explained why excsluves are poor arguments.

in the example you are giving they are not told to cut corners. the cut corners approach is used only whem comparing to other cut corner devices, namely consoles. Noone says that you should use cut corners computer, merely that if you want to beat cut corners your going to have to cut some yourself.

Yes TVs can be used as monitors never said they didn't. However I talked about the better monitors which you'll need if you, and hey we hear it enough care about the frames and all that shrubbery.
In regards to consoles however that isn't needed for already well documented reasons.

Fair enough, i will agree that there is no need for getting a monitor better than standard TV for consoles as they cannot produce better quality image than that anyway, whereas PC is capable of producing such image and people who want to use this capability will want better TV/monitor.

Blu Ray drives (PCs) do exist, and I can only hope you weren't claiming that (I assume not). No the reason they aren't included is to reduce price and put it more in the favour of what the writer wants to push.
You cannot sit down and claim one box is superior than another in everyway when the box you're pushing can't even play blu rays.

Fun fact, some people like using discs. Easier to download is variable in regards to downloading. I for example could easily say that regarding myself as my connection is a good one, a lot of people wouldn't be able to.

No, what i was claiming is that almost no PCs, even the 3000 dollar beast builds use blue ray drives because they are not needed for almost any user. Many new computers come without a disc drive at all for high budget variants because for most people they just sit there without being used.
The reason consoles need blue ray drives is because they require high speed disc reading to play games from discs. for that they use more expensive reader drives and much more expensive blue ray discs compared to DVD counterpart that PC users that still use discs use. DVDs are multiple times cheapet for data delivery and there is no problem with having smaller size per disc due to only having to install the game once and not needing to constantly use the disc.

I like using discs. come to my house and ill show you my cupboard of DVDs, all 660 of them. I dont have a single BlueRay discs though. they are a waste of money for data storage.

Internet infrastructure is better than most people make out to be. If only US and Australia ISPs would stop being dicks were not allowed to be monopolies, that can take subsidies from government and NOT do what they promised, we would have a vastly different song here. and even then average internet speed in US is over 12mbps. that is enough to watch a 1080p netflix video stream (they use ~10000kbps bitrates for their HD streams, personally i think thats horrible quality but apparently its enough for most).

Oh here we go, they are robbing people. Well they are the shadow cabal I suppose, they control the Mafia, Yakuza, and the like too and all that.

Well Yakuza [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza_%28video_game%29] is a console exclusive, altrough Mafia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia:_The_City_of_Lost_Heaven] is a multiplatform.

 

[Rozalia1]

see, now this is what you should have posted instead of "lol excuses".

Like i said, the argument is quite simple. PC can do everything a console can and more. Console can only do part of what PC does. Thus, console is inferior experience. now, you have two choices, to have constant superior experience or to have some superior experience and some inferior experience. Second one would obviuosly be worse choice, thus multiplayforming is a worse choice.

... ... ... What can be said that hasn't already. I really don't want to be rude here but that is...absolute nonsense.
I didn't think anyone would actually try but you actually are... not a good thing to be doing.

Play The Last of Us on PS4? I can. Play Yakuza 4 on PS3? I can. Play Bayonetta 2 on Wii U? I can. Play SMT: Strange Journey on 3/DS? I can. Play Gravity Rush on Vita? I can. Play Crusader Kings 2 on PC? I can.
You can merely do one of those things. Its a simple case of anything you can do I can do, and more.

Your "constant better experience" is not only nonsense as game quality matters more than simple shrubbery detail, but how do you quantify PC being a better experience than a handheld?

i already explained why excsluves are poor arguments.

in the example you are giving they are not told to cut corners. the cut corners approach is used only whem comparing to other cut corner devices, namely consoles. Noone says that you should use cut corners computer, merely that if you want to beat cut corners your going to have to cut some yourself.

Exclusives are a reason to own a console, in fact they are the overarching main reason. Pricetag, friends having them, and whatever else can be important but ultimately its sold on games.

You don't build a console so your connection doesn't work. You have stated before that seemingly anything below £1000 pound of hardware on a console is crap which is bunkum pure and simple as I told you last time. This isn't the age of Jaguar.

No, what i was claiming is that almost no PCs, even the 3000 dollar beast builds use blue ray drives because they are not needed for almost any user. Many new computers come without a disc drive at all for high budget variants because for most people they just sit there without being used.
The reason consoles need blue ray drives is because they require high speed disc reading to play games from discs. for that they use more expensive reader drives and much more expensive blue ray discs compared to DVD counterpart that PC users that still use discs use. DVDs are multiple times cheapet for data delivery and there is no problem with having smaller size per disc due to only having to install the game once and not needing to constantly use the disc.

I like using discs. come to my house and ill show you my cupboard of DVDs, all 660 of them. I dont have a single BlueRay discs though. they are a waste of money for data storage.

Internet infrastructure is better than most people make out to be. If only US and Australia ISPs would stop being dicks were not allowed to be monopolies, that can take subsidies from government and NOT do what they promised, we would have a vastly different song here. and even then average internet speed in US is over 12mbps. that is enough to watch a 1080p netflix video stream (they use ~10000kbps bitrates for their HD streams, personally i think thats horrible quality but apparently its enough for most).

Than it isn't better in every way like you claim than is it now. If you're comparing two things with the sole goal of proving that B is than A...than it stands to reason you make B do everything A can do.
As I said the Blu Ray drive isn't included because the article makers need the clicks on their cut corners, and those that do it on places like Pcmasterace? I suppose they need to manufacture ammo for their war I suppose...even if its old generic ammo that can be deflected with ease.

I have loads of Blu Rays, as do others...so your point?

I remember when I had 30mbps and was worried it'd not be all that good...I now have 4 times that and everything runs as smooth as possible (problems won't be on my end that is for sure).
I don't see why the government wouldn't just force the issue, their president doesn't have another term so it hardly matters who gets ticked off...but than again I'm sure the American system has something in it that prevents all that, or improving internet speeds just isn't considered all that important for productivity, happiness, and all that.

Well Yakuza is a console exclusive, altrough Mafia is a multiplatform.

Yakuza is a fine damn series. When I hit that point where I just didn't care to game anymore years back due to prolonged exposure to White Knight Chronicles, and than some lackluster games like Dead Rising 2 that did me no good (I think Cross Edge was also involved to which I really hated at the time) Yakuza 3 "rescued" me and I've been a Yakuza (the games not the actual Yakuza) mark ever since.
Gaming has been going strong for me ever since.
I'd like to note that White Knight Chronicles I kind of got numb (as in I stopped hating it) to as time went on at the cost of my enjoyment of life basically, Cross Edge was merely a bad game that when I sat down 2 years later to 100% I actually enjoyed as I started dropping those post game bosses with my team of York, Lazarus, Felicia, and Cece (says something how they messed up with the characters when a game about cross overs has me using 3 original characters for the game in my party instead).

Anyway... Yakuza actually led me to try Sleeping Dogs as I was told it was like a cross between GTA and Yakuza. If it was merely like GTA than I'd not have tried it (and enjoyed it).
Mafia...well I'm sure you can guess my thoughts on it.

 

[Strazdas]

Exclusives are a reason to own a console, in fact they are the overarching main reason. Pricetag, friends having them, and whatever else can be important but ultimately its sold on games.

You don't build a console so your connection doesn't work. You have stated before that seemingly anything below £1000 pound of hardware on a console is crap which is bunkum pure and simple as I told you last time. This isn't the age of Jaguar.

I agree that exclusives is the main factor left for people buying console.

For the third time, i have never said that we have to use expensive console hardware. i said we have to use good hardware for consoles. the harware they have now is clearly not worth the money paid for them considering the alternative hardware for same price.

But, if course, you can only make a counterargument when you invent a strawman here. so you keep doing it.

Than it isn't better in every way like you claim than is it now. If you're comparing two things with the sole goal of proving that B is than A...than it stands to reason you make B do everything A can do.

Incorrect. B can be better than A even if it does not do everything that A does because it may also do many things that A cannot.

I remember when I had 30mbps and was worried it'd not be all that good...I now have 4 times that and everything runs as smooth as possible (problems won't be on my end that is for sure).
I don't see why the government wouldn't just force the issue, their president doesn't have another term so it hardly matters who gets ticked off...but than again I'm sure the American system has something in it that prevents all that, or improving internet speeds just isn't considered all that important for productivity, happiness, and all that.

The government wont force the issue because they are too busy swimming in money the issue creates. when you got a monopoly that manages to privide 10 times worse service for 3 times more the price and use that money to lobby government to the point where they own the very institution that is made to regulate them (FCC in US) the government isnt going to do anything.

 

[Rozalia1]

I agree that exclusives is the main factor left for people buying console.

For the third time, i have never said that we have to use expensive console hardware. i said we have to use good hardware for consoles. the harware they have now is clearly not worth the money paid for them considering the alternative hardware for same price.

But, if course, you can only make a counterargument when you invent a strawman here. so you keep doing it.

1000, 800, 600 whatever the price its simply not a good price for a console to have. The jobbing Sony had to do with the PS3 is recent evidence you're wrong. History is littered with such examples.

The prices of the current gen consoles is fine, even in the most rigged circumstances its still cheaper than the cutcorners due to the obvious exclusions such article writers make to get their clicks (and forum goers do to further their war effort).

Incorrect. B can be better than A even if it does not do everything that A does because it may also do many things that A cannot.

Seems I didn't repeat myself fully that time, it does get grating. I meant to say if you're trying to prove that B is better in every single way than A, than it better be able be able to do everything A does.

The government wont force the issue because they are too busy swimming in money the issue creates. when you got a monopoly that manages to privide 10 times worse service for 3 times more the price and use that money to lobby government to the point where they own the very institution that is made to regulate them (FCC in US) the government isnt going to do anything.

Well it is America so conservatism will prevail. I'm just glad that while I live in a country also dominated by conservatism, at least they aren't as full hog as American ones as most people have the good sense to be hostile to American "ideas" shall we say (Not culture or anything, talking simply politics).

 

[Strazdas]

1000, 800, 600 whatever the price its simply not a good price for a console to have. The jobbing Sony had to do with the PS3 is recent evidence you're wrong. History is littered with such examples.

Well, 400 seems to do it, right? Also do i really need to remind you that average wage have increased since 2006 and hence the same amount of money is lesser part of somones income as well as lower value due to inflation? Sorry, 8 years is not "Recent" example.

Also in all previuos generations consoles sold at a loss, meaning the hardware manufacturing actually cost more than they were selling them for and they wanted to make up for that with games. If, say, a console were to have components worth 600 and sell for 500 it would be standard practice anyway. As it is right now, it does not have components worth 400 though. and thats really the problem here. the price is inadequate for the hardware given.

Seems I didn't repeat myself fully that time, it does get grating. I meant to say if you're trying to prove that B is better in every single way than A, than it better be able be able to do everything A does.

Except im not. i only need to prove that it is better overall.

Edit: Formatting

 

[Rozalia1]

Well, 400 seems to do it, right? Also do i really need to remind you that average wage have increased since 2006 and hence the same amount of money is lesser part of somones income as well as lower value due to inflation? Sorry, 8 years is not "Recent" example.

Also in all previuos generations consoles sold at a loss, meaning the hardware manufacturing actually cost more than they were selling them for and they wanted to make up for that with games. If, say, a console were to have components worth 600 and sell for 500 it would be standard practice anyway. As it is right now, it does not have components worth 400 though. and thats really the problem here. the price is inadequate for the hardware given.

Trying to make $599 sound better isn't going to work, I can say with certainty that if the PS4 was that price on release it wouldn't have sold as much as it has. Oh and yes there is evidence to support that (PS3 - 360).
Its as recent as it gets actually, not that it needs to be recent. It merely needs to show/prove something which it does just fine.

Nobody cares to put it bluntly, not even you care (this is consoles after all). The sales speak for themselves, you're wrong simple as. Nobody wants a super expensive console, nor do they care if the manufacturers make a tiny profit, or if they sell at sickening losses (here is a stumper for you. Did another pat Sony on the back and buy the PS3 in huge amounts?).

Except im not. i only need to prove that it is better overall.

Their claims are its better in every single way, they are wrong. Its annoying when you support something, I say something that refers to that, and than you use your own opinion to defend theirs. Doesn't work.

They are wrong in initial purchase price, and they are wrong in functionality. Better exclusives is subjective, prices aren't as absurd as they make it (how many times on this forum alone have I had to state that console games aren't full price forever?), and some of those builds can be iffy.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

So i ran out of characters for subject title. didnt expect that to happen.

I read a recount of a Ubisoft engineers coming to a school to do a presentation. It can be found here [http://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/2j7r9j/delivering_ubisoft_came_to_my_school_for_a/].

Since this was announced earlier some users asked the OP to ask some questions and he tries his best to answer them. there are many answers, but few that stood out were these:

"So what the hell happened with watch dogs?" u/Egg_Slicer

During the presentation, the Online Programmer said that just before they release a game, they have to send a copy to console manufacturers, which then tell them what to keep and what to throw away (sooo yeah Watch Dogs maybe ?).

Apperently console manufacturers now can dictate game developers whitch parts of the games they are allowed to keep in the game and whitch they should remove. they are literally able to cut content they dont want. I find this infuriating, because it means that neither developers nor publishers dont even have control of what their game is going to be like and instead a platform owner can control that.

The Game Architect said that they aim for 60 fps but due to "limitations", they have to settle for 30 fps in recent games. He then implied that console makers are pressuring them into doing the same thing on PC.

This seems to imply that console manufacturers are trying to intentionally gimp PC versions so console versions would look better in comparison. this is inexcusable in my opinion.

The rest of asnwers can be found in timois post [http://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/2j7r9j/delivering_ubisoft_came_to_my_school_for_a/], but those two stood out the most.

Now if we are to assume that the engineers or the OP isnt lieing, which we cannot prove either way at the moment, this would be pretty big shit. however its worth mentioning that neither EA nor Activision (the other two publishing giants) dont seem to either have such problems or allow themselves to be pressured, so i still would say that the blame is significantly on Ubisoft for agreeing to such ridiculous demands.

What do Escapists think?

well thats a buncha bullcrap, thankfully ubisoft is the only idiot that lets itself being bullied by console manufacturers it seems

at this point PC is so huge console manufactorers can do much to bribe devs to make their games worse for the platform on purpose, i mean besides ubishit titles i dont recall many games being made worse for PC on purpose

 

[Rozalia1]

1. Exclusives are something subjective. For me they are not a serious argument. Example:

All console exclusives ever made cant compare to STALKER. No Japanese developer (even though I give you, P3,4 were awesome) is even in the same league as the devs of STALKER.

Ok now, you can NOT argue with that. It is pointless, it is useless. It cant work. If you reverse it (you can of coarse), then I cant argue no matter how I try. Subjective stuff like games should not be in these debates IMHO.
*Though your beloved console exclusives would have been better on PC*

Yes it is pointless to argue with someone who does indeed think STALKER is the best ever, you got your opinion and that is that. However I disagree, and considering those exclusives are rated higher by me than where your point is...I don't know.

I'm not liking the phrasing of that as its implying something snide, however I'll just straight up annihilate it regardless. Wild Arms 1. Had the devs put that exclusive on the PC would it have gotten its sequels? Doubtful.
You can crow about graphics, freedom, or whatever else as much as you like but that game would not have been better off on PC (and remember that was the age of exclusives, multiplatform was way rarer than today).

Not a perfect example as Sony actually own the rights themselves so it being a exclusive was always going to be a thing (another point you forget, without exclusives a lot of those games wouldn't even be made). However we can pretend for the sake of the example that Sony didn't and a PC version was actually a possibility.
Speaking of Wild Arms I read not that long ago that Sony have apparently given the go ahead for a new one on the PS4/Vita (meaning Wild Arms will have skipped the PS3) which was as you can imagine was very nice news for me.

So I argue only objective things like power, price, utility and things like modding, emulation and backwards compatibility.

PCs aren't static. Backwards compatibility isn't perfect even on PC. Emulation we've been over many times, the illegal kind peddled is not a point that can be said in your favour, and neither can the legal kind really (it'd be a very minor point). Legally you'd need to own both the game and the original device needed to play it. So emulation as a positive point stands at being able to play it on your desktop in addition, or on the go if we're talking laptop. No one (as in so few that there is little point even acknowledging) use it like that. They use it as "I can pirate these old games for free...but don't call me out because I'm not a pirate".

2. Handhelds are in a fight with mobile phones/tablets ... a fight whose outcome is ... obvious .

What is the flavour you're scooping out exactly? Got to be more specific. Is the increasingly more common utterance that the Mobile platform will lay all other platforms to waste?
Phone/tablet due to their nature cannot deliver as good experience as a handheld, neither does it have the backing of us as many...well unsure what the exact nice term to use here...full fledged games? Good games? Proper games? Real games? Well you get what I'm getting at I'm sure. Of course that isn't me making the claim all mobile games are, I've played quite a few myself. They have their place, but their place isn't wiping everything else out.

3. Generally speaking, a unified master platform cant really be a console:
A) Consoles are toys. PCs are not. The world cant function without one, whilst the other is important to gamers only.
B) Power.

The elitist approach is ever so weak if you have even a single hole, one direct shot into the ***** and your entire armour gets destroyed. Newsflash: games are considered toys. That talk from you who has talked about art, and taking games seriously is most unbecoming. Either you don't believe what you've said previously, or you're saying this due to the platform wars...either paints you in a bad light. There is the third option of retracting something of course... but that depends on how good you are with your words.

Consoles can be defined as simply PCs (you shouldn't argue this, common enough to hear it) which send a signal to a television set to show an image. PCs (remembering that consoles are also PCs) can be defined as devices that output the signal to a monitor.
Of course you can mix and match and have both on sets they weren't intended to be used on yes. In fact this isn't a strange thing for PC so this talk from you is most puzzling. There is a reason PCs referred to as "Console gaming computers" or any such similar term exist.

If tomorrow all kinds of PCs disappeared, gaming is the LEAST of our problems... freacking apocalyptic scenario... millions will die.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

Anyway you say you are a multi plat gamer? Does that mean that all multiplat games you have are the PC versions and only console exclusives are your console games? Because if that is how you roll, then that is not bad at all.
If you get the PS4 version of a game that is also on PC... that is not optimal mate

Don't (I have a few which were unavoidable, but thankfully were free of it) play EA/Ubisoft on PC or any company that may require its own little downloads. I also have had PS+ from its inception so a lot of my multiplats come from that. Most of the games I actually buy are exclusives.
Speaking of which has been a good couple of months for me, I already have half a dozen (not counted but at least) exclusives yet to be played, 3 complete but not 100%ed (trophy mark), and a dozen games I've to buy but will at some point when I've chewed through the rest.
Some games overtake others in what I'm going to play next either due to simply being a top game to me (Yakuza and Dangenronpa for example), or because they have some online component that I need to make sure I get out of the way as quick and painless as possible.

Spoilt for choice, I really want to continue my Ibadi Caliphate game in Crusader Kings 2, but I don't as often as I like as I always get the thought that I really need to get through all the other games I got.

 

[Rozalia1]

Was that a jab at my game ? Unlike you, I do play the games you recommended...

None at all, I can convince you otherwise and its a subjective manner regardless.

Unfortunately, seems like you have a short memory. I gave you that consoles USED to have meaning even 15 years ago. Just not right now.
And "doubtful" is basically speculation.

I leave room for doubt, unlike some...others. However this is the difference between saying something has zero chance, and 0.01 chance. Its minute, tiny. Saying it would have had no hope of succeeding on PC at its release date is far more credible than the opposite that it would have succeeded.

And I will, thank you very much. The only stance of yours I never, EVER will respect at all is your stance on modding. It is insane to me.

A piece of art stands on its own merits, not on whatever vandalisation some vandal decides to glue on it.

Speculation mate. If it werent Sony, it would be someone else. Maybe even a publisher. All this is speculation.
Who knows, maybe something else, maybe something even better would have been made. We might never know.

That doesn't work. Sony at the time wanted a title to combat the exclusive JRPG Nintendo had the time known as Final Fantasy 7, of course things happen and Final Fantasy 7 ended up on a playstation platform instead of a Nintendo one. Its like if when in the process of getting Killzone together Sony snatched up Halo. There is no guarantee that the game would have been commissioned as a result, if another company came along they could have been asked to make a shoot em up or something.

Great for you. It is skipping the only Sony console I have access to. Not good news for me.

Well I believe its PS4 because the game is a way off, and releasing so late in a consoles life is not seen as hugely attractive (though many great games have done so with little issue). A PS4 release, and some Sony interest in the matter may mean the title gets some advertisement and money behind it...which should result hopefully in more success, and thus more games.
The best thing that could happen is Sony adds it to its stable of main titles as that'd mean we'd get one every 2 or 3 years...but unless it really takes off that is doubtful.

Yes, we have been. And you know I told you that I respect your stance. Nothing more though. I will continue to use it as a pro for PC gaming.

Well if you want to support piracy than that is your stance.

All mobile gaming platforms are under the scope id say. Phones arent exactly a competition for gaming PCs and home consoles.

That so? Why would I need a PC or console when I got all I need on my phone? See how easy it is.

Kind of elitist this attitude here... I see what you are getting at though.

No, I just am unsure how to properly get it across in the nicest way possible. I have nothing against them, but have no way to correctly define all those games that have bad reps, but ultimately have their place.

Maybe I should have used future tense there. Not yet, but I do see it as something almost completely certain .

Speculation right.

Not really. This is not an elitist view at all. Unless you consider toys something bad by default?

Notice how I was not talking about games .

As for the meaning of the sentence: Toys are nothing bad IMHO, I see toy making as a type of art form. Video Games... they are something strange. Thankfully, the negatively charged version of your sentence is slowly dying out. Slowly, but certainly.

That defense doesn't work and you know it. You used it negatively, used it to claim one as expendable and the other as not.
So spinning it on me that I "hate toys" is pointless, and irrelevant. The light is on you, and your earlier statement outs the second as not as honest as it wants to appear.

So far, by your definition, they are PCs. TVs= a type of screen/monitor. PCs use TVs as well.

I dont see it that way. Just marketing and gaming tradition is what separates both. A screen is a screen.

Consoles are a term for a PC that is usually plugged into a TV. A home computer (because you really shouldn't be gaming at work) is a PC usually plugged into a monitor. Nothing is stopping you going the other way as I said.

Never heard of such a thing.

http://www.xi3.com/piston

You know also those much hyped...but...well not sure how to best put it, steam machines?

I consider it relevant. That is why I brought it up. Else I would not have done so.

Has nothing to do with anything, outside attempting to support your "PC isn't a toy so > consoles".

You said a few pages back, something about all other platforms (PC included) dying out and we having to make do with a Wii U.
Honestly, Wii U and gaming are the absolute least of our problems then...

That was in response to a user who said they simply wanted gaming on a unified platform. I told him than what if all games just came out on the Wii U, it'd be unified after all. He didn't want that because if that happens it must just be PC because Platform wars yadda yadda yadda. That my friend is a big one because you tend to hear variations of all sorts of things from all the "sides", but that one is an ailment that only seems to fester in PC gamers.

Incredible how you find time for all that

You have a decent set up. I can see why PS+ games you will play on your PS4.

I just started my own mini mod for STALKER . Nothing too ambitious for now (not exactly new content), but will see whether it will play better.

Wish I had more as I'd than have some more games complete.

Well some people start their careers doing that so good luck to you.

 

[Leoofmoon]

... excuse me? Its gotten this bad now? Deliberately holding back gaming for bullshit parity? Are they trying to start consolegate?

And we all know who is doing it. Its Microsoft and their bullshit anti competitive practices. I knew it before I even opened the link.

If the ps4 is better than the xbox, it deserves better performance.

If a PC is better, it deserves the better performance.

We shouldn't pull punches because someone didn't plan ahead and "could get their feelings hurt."

The only one microsoft has to blame is itself.

And Ubisoft reuses everything? Well no shit, has anyone SEEN the video of Far Cry 4 from boogie? The amount of reused enemies, animations, and assets is appaling. Nice to know that Ubisoft sells glorified mods.

Hell you are right about anything ever if this was reversed and the Xbox was higher specs then the PS4 there is no reason to hold anything back.

 

[Rozalia1]

And yeah, as far as I am concerned, in any such debate I have the lead... I play your games, you dont play mine .

Really doesn't factor into anything.

SO, now we argue chances? Good, I will remember this.

Nope, your claim would have been if you were silly enough to make it (smarter to vaguely imply something) something practically non existant. My "claim", or scenario if you will actually happened in real life so we can see evidence of it.

Uhu, I have shown you how wrong you are many times...
This is not something I respect. I see it as a danger to gaming itself, this stance. It really unnerves and disgusts me. Sorry, it is a stupid and dangerous opinion.

I have seen mods more ambitious and competent then AAA drivel...

I'm sorry a game's quality should be based on the finished article, and not the rubbish tacked on to it by figuratively anyone.
If we were talking "danger to gaming" (being really dramatic there), than what is actually more dangerous. Not much of a care for mods which doesn't stop people modding if they really want to...or the implication that your game can be a piece of crap because some guys on the internet will "fix" it(which if we're talking art as you often do, fixing art is something I find very suspect).

Perhaps if I'd held up AAA in some way to make a point that might matter...as it stands its simply irrelevant. Especially as infamously AAA games are often held up as mostly games by developers playing it safe.

We are talking speculation and chances .
This makes me wonder, did the devs actually want to make such a game?

Am I the one who brought this in? Nope. You started talking fantasy of "well if it was PC exclusive than maybe it'd have been better", or was it "without Sony it'd still have been made because...someone somewhere would pick it up and make sure everything happens exactly the same...because destiny is destiny"?

Do you think I can possibly know those specifics?

I dont know it... damn the smugness...

For what they are, one IS EXPENDABLE! I make no such claim, I hope this is OBVIOUS to you, one is a foundation of modern society, the other is expendable.

It is honest, very honest. I see games as an art, and consoles as machines. Specialized toy machines. PCs too are machines, would exist either way, and their loss may mean you and I would end up dead.

You do as you keep proving.

And there we have it, you say you don't use "toys" as a negative, but here you are saying it loud and clear that you used toys negatively to give reason to why consoles are expendable.

Yet you don't treat them like art. You're a supporter of what is just piracy with another name. Your over zealousness in regards to mods, and the constant claims of modders being better than developers tells me you disrespect the original developers of the game who may have not made a perfect work, but there are reasons why that happens. And now here you are peddling consoles are merely toys which is perfectly fine, I don't mind. You think gaming pcs aren't toys? PCs are for doing work, not going pew pew pew with your dolls (reference to shooters, but we can replace this with anything). You want to degrade art by referring to it as toys which have negative stigma (and you yourself have used negatively), go ahead. Its your right to disrespect gaming, I only ask and wish you did it more fairly.

I can respect the opinion of someone who says that in regards to gaming, however someone who merely singles out because "platform wars", nope.

Consoles are a term for a specialized gaming oriented PC.

Mine is to a TV... big deal lol.

To quote wiki: The term "video game console" is used to distinguish a machine designed for consumers to use for playing video games on a separate television in contrast to arcade machines, handheld game consoles, or home computers.

Hence why you get those "PC consoles" that existed in the past, and have made a resurgence today to an extent (though not for long I think). Now you could argue this point fruitless, but the simple fact is "PC consoles" are a thing...you apparently didn't know this, but I posted a link and some other info on it so you should now.

Your snide remarks keep implying I've made the mistake of saying you can't use a TV to show the output of your PC... which I haven't so it puzzles me why this keeps coming up.

Seems like a PC to me ...
Though to me, personally it is kinda useless. I can get less knowledgeable/lazier people wanting such a thing though.

Look at the link again, or for the first time if you didn't previously (http://www.xi3.com/piston). I'll even help you out as otherwise this is just going to keep rebounding. Press control+F, and than type in "console" without the quotation marks obviously.

That is why I brought it up . It does not attempt to support a claim, it IS the truth.

So you think lesser of them for being toys...meaning we're right back at you using toys negatively something you claim you don't do, and have been trying to reverse on me. That is what I really don't like, its one thing to make that comment. Its quite another to make it, smile, and than try to use it to attack me.

Because it is only a real point in PC gamer's arguments. As I said, gaming will then be the least of our problems... the very least.

I suppose I'll have to clear it up a bit, I'd have thought it obvious but oh well. We're talking about gaming, in that "what if", if PC gaming disappeared tomorrow that wouldn't mean we'd no longer be using computers. Computers have as you've said many times got functions beyond gaming.
Simply the PC gets no more games, they all go to the Wii U...we get that unified system the folk talking about wanting that want...what causes the PC and the other consoles to get no games? You could use your imagination for that, but really the cause is really quite irrelevant.

Its to highlight that those who have spoken here in regards to a unified platform don't want that as it'd be the "right thing", they want it just for PC because "platform wars". Otherwise why would they refuse a Wii U device that plays every game? That'd get every game? After all it'd be a unified system...but nope.

I can see some comebacks that can be attempted on the above, but I'm quite confident they have no bite to them.

No such aspirations for now. I have a university to finish and at least 3 more languages awaiting me...

Well whatever happens you merely need to remember that everything that happens builds you in someway. If you miss out a couple years not making games that can be a good thing.

 

[black_knight1337]

That was in response to a user who said they simply wanted gaming on a unified platform. I told him than what if all games just came out on the Wii U, it'd be unified after all. He didn't want that because if that happens it must just be PC because Platform wars yadda yadda yadda. That my friend is a big one because you tend to hear variations of all sorts of things from all the "sides", but that one is an ailment that only seems to fester in PC gamers.

Its to highlight that those who have spoken here in regards to a unified platform don't want that as it'd be the "right thing", they want it just for PC because "platform wars". Otherwise why would they refuse a Wii U device that plays every game? That'd get every game? After all it'd be a unified system...but nope.

No need to put words in my mouth. At no point was my suggestion of PC about 'platform wars' beyond the idea of a unified platform being a solution to said 'war'. Never denied the Wii U either, if that ended up being the unified platform then I'd accept it, it wouldn't be ideal though.

As I said before the reason for me wanting the unified platform to be PC is because of the technical limitations of the current consoles. There's the strength (or rather, lack of) of the consoles which will greatly lower the potential for texture quality, model quality, particle effects, lighting, anti-aliasing, draw distance, physics and ai. Then there's also the exclusives which can easily transition from consoles to PC, but the same can't be said for the other way around. And then we'd also miss out some great features like modding and endless backwards compatibility.

 

[Rozalia1]

Really does. Shows a difference between you and I. I play (and even enjoy) the games you suggested to me. You never will .
Just dont compare quality

You suggested a game to me that many have stated needs to be modded to actually be any good. I don't mod Crusader Kings 2 or any of the games I actually play, so why would I that? I wouldn't.

Excuses and explanations. I thought what I wrote was simple to understand. Guess not.

Than make it, go on. Share with me the merits of a PC exclusive JRPGs in 1996, and how successful it'd be.

See, this is exactly what I mean. You STILL dont know what you are talking about, despite all my attempts to tell you WHY that logic is absurd as hell.
Vandalism is something BAD. It destroys (practically) the work that was affected. Games are NOT destroyed when you mod them. Even in the BAD mods, those that you think only exist, a simple removing of a folder or AT MOST a reinstall gives you the original work.
And the mods that I am talking about ALMOST ALWAYS have their own installers, shortcuts and launchers. You can have the original and the mod at once. Nothing is damaged. Nothing is changed. The mod is its separate entity. All that separates it from a "real" game is IP rights.
Your second "point" (does not deserve such high praise) is nonsensical. No one makes mods for games they dont like. That is how things are regulated in modding. Only things people like or have good communities have good mods.
Admittedly, you did not use AAA drivel. You get this one. And I agree.

Stop taking that so literally, its figurative. I know how a mod works, I can load up plenty of games and it shows quite clearly, another can figure it out. The original work is art, a mod...its nothing. The equivalent of me scribbling on an art piece and than claiming its artistically improved.

I'm sorry what? You've never heard that held up as a good point of PC games? The oh so grand "well if our games are broken, than some dude will fix it for free"... oh and yes they'd do. They get a sequel they don't like and they mod it to be more like the games before and the like. Several reasons to mod something outside merely liking it.

No less of a fantasy then handhelds remaining dominant over the coming decade/s in the mobile gaming department.

Saying that the current dynamic that has existed for a long time will continue to function is not fantasy. Here I'll tell you fantasy, those people who said the PS3 would be the final console...wrong. PS4 final now, likely wrong again.
Saying that something will continue when nothing has shown it won't is not fantasy, saying consoles will die out when they are showing such strong sales however goes against reality...that is fantasy.
Now that wasn't a reference to you so don't take that as something against you.

Why do you think I disrespect developers? Sure, when DICE says something like "Modders cant use our tools herp derp too advanced" as some kind of excuse, I sure as hell will shit talk them. That statement is untrue and stupid on so many levels it deserves a violent slap by actually competent people.

You can equate emulation in your binary world to piracy, truth is that is hard to do. Wont stop you though.

Its an empty promo, means nothing and you shouldn't take it so seriously. The simple fact in that would be they don't want you to mess with it, you should respect that. Not "oh what big meanieheads they are, going to pirate their game now because I'm a rebel like that and shoot off at the slightest thing". Not directed at you of course, but the more common comments made in those sort of circumstances.

We've been through this before, there is legal and illegal. You support illegal. You can justify it by saying "art". You can justify it by saying "old". You can justify it by saying it is your "right" You can justify it by saying "not available to buy", you can justify it how you like. Its still piracy.

But they ARE TOYS! Gaming PCs are STILL PCs! What is so hard to understand here? If you want I can try in a few other languages???

Anyways, decent dis on shooters.
*Being smug and superior for playing the genres you like too... I am disarmed and cant do the same for JRPGs... damn your master plan!*

Gaming PCs needed for work? If we go by specifications yes they are toys. You don't need an advanced graphics card for doing spreadsheets, you in this case are using it as a "toy".
Oh and yes I am aware of the kind of work that does require a more...heavy computer shall we say. They still aren't "gaming pcs", they're for work.

As I said you could use anything, pew pew pew is the easiest to state. You could say mashing your toys together for fighters, or dressing them up for rpgs...you miss the point of that statement. Its not to mock shooters.

It would be more correct of me to be explaining cntl + F to you, however I did see it. Was simply stating what it looks like to me.

What is this? You making the accusation I don't know how to use a PC? You think you're better than me in someway? Just say it if you do, no need to be vague I can take it. Yeah I'm sure 15 utterances of Console really shows that I made up the term myself as that is what you seem to be getting at. You said you'd never heard of the term as its a required thing for you to do as otherwise consoles are PCs, and if they're PCs than they either aren't toys thereby proving you wrong...or they are still toys and so is what you are desperately trying to push to the top.

Saying "well I don't really see where consoles come into it in the link" don't work when a simple highlight will show that it is very prominent. I gave my definition, that link backs up my definition and it'd not be the only place as the likes of Alienware and other companies also make such things.
What does your opposition to my definition have as evidence? You've provided none other than your own personal definition.

Well, if you want it like this then yes. Toys are expendable compared to a machine that makes the world go round. A toy is not something bad by itself, but it is not in the same category as such a machine.
So yeah, they are lesser for humanity. By default, not just gaming.

You really should write a book though. I see the entire discussion here in a fairly simple light, whilst you make it seem as if I am at least an experienced politician

Bigger fantasy then anything I have ever said. If people have a machine that is by default needed, they will also want to do other things with it.

The gaming capability of PCs do not make the world go around, if PCs tomorrow couldn't play games for whatever reason nothing would change. Take this literally and we'll just waste time so please realise the point.

You've left several holes in your armour open, I shoot them...simple.

You keep homing in on those sort of things because it distracts from the point that is being made. How it happens in the example to highlight hypocrisy isn't important, its not worth a discussion.

We lose a decent portion of already released games that cant run on the weak system.

They get ported, or as you like to use piracy as a bonus and so this will be up your alley, emulated. These things are really not important, just distractions.

Overall agree. Problem is, if there will be a push towards single machine, it being a console and not a PC is... bewildering.

Monopoly happens, big time juju happens, other platforms no longer sell, too damaged by piracy or simply no one wants them, Nintendo gets a massive install base and their system is a moneymaker and safe. The specifics aren't important, the point being proven in rejection of it is.

That is the way I am viewing many of your points really

Not logical as a response.

I know that. Thanks. So far I dare say I have done quite well

Life isn't as bad as some make it, unless you're in a bad part of the world I suppose...but lets not have that get in the way of a simple nice statement.

No need to put words in my mouth. At no point was my suggestion of PC about 'platform wars' beyond the idea of a unified platform being a solution to said 'war'. Never denied the Wii U either, if that ended up being the unified platform then I'd accept it, it wouldn't be ideal though.

Well I'm glad you can at least concede that much, not many would even when it makes sense to.

As I said before the reason for me wanting the unified platform to be PC is because of the technical limitations of the current consoles. There's the strength (or rather, lack of) of the consoles which will greatly lower the potential for texture quality, model quality, particle effects, lighting, anti-aliasing, draw distance, physics and ai. Then there's also the exclusives which can easily transition from consoles to PC, but the same can't be said for the other way around. And then we'd also miss out some great features like modding and endless backwards compatibility.

Graphics do not make a game... and no that is not cause to remark "well actually without the graphics it'd be a black screen", you know full well what I mean. Sorry I have to put it that way, but that "smart remark" is all too common and it just wastes time.
Secondly I don't see how you're any different than. What is the difference between you and the "I want no exclusives to exist, but PC better keep all its exclusives because I don't want all that "dumbing down" brigade? In regards to that argument I don't see sense, I see hypocrisy. It'd be like a Xbox guy saying he wants all the Sony exclusives, but Xbox exclusives should stay exclusive...they've got some here or theres to shield their hypocrisy admittedly but those don't work on me, especially when I know that such people dismiss the opposite which is that certain games were ultimately only possible on consoles not due to technical matters, but financial ones or due to competition in the console market (got to have something to duel what the competitor has after all).

Admit the other sides of the coins you're handing me and we'll be dandy, but going that far would have meant we'd never have started this anyway so...