Upskirt Danger Caused Sex Change in Ico's The Last Guardian

[TheBaron87]

That sound you hear is my head repeatedly striking my desk over the huge amounts of sexism depicted by Fumito Ueda. First he wants a weak hero to counterbalance the strength of the creature in the game. So naturally he things of a girl. Because you know. Women are all weak, soft creatures who can never on their own be strong, independent and kick butt on their own. y'know, despite all the strong, female, independent kick butt characters in games, media and real life.

And naturally, if we have a girl character, she'll wear a skirt. Because all girls wear skirts, always. You'll never see a girl wearing pants while clinging to a monster or fighting. Besides, boys have a stronger grip.

Dear Mister Ueda. Kindly pull your head out of your ass and join us in the 21st century, where women are equals and wear pants. Thanks.

Maybe you should pull your head out of your other hole and the stick out of your ass and join us in the 21st century where science has proven as a FACT that on average females ARE physically weaker than males, and some people have the cultural awareness to realize that in some countries women aren't so blinded by Freudian penis-envy (aka feminist for those of you that only speak PC) they can't be happy wearing something classically feminine.

As for the game, I say he should have just stuck to his original idea and screw anyone that thought it was perverted. It's all in the eye of the beholder, only in America are people stupid enough to see something perverted and then shift the blame onto the creator and assume we know how they intended it without admitting that at the very least we're perverts for noticing. He shouldn't have to censor his game, the rest of us should grow up.

 

[Jumplion]

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was referring to his other comments about initially wanting a female character because he wanted the protagonist to contrast with the strength of the creature. I don't think it's sexist that he prefers women in dresses, but I do think it's a bit off that when he thinks of "weak" he automatically thinks of a female character.

I would to, it's called an archetype. You have no idea what he initially thought at the time, artists, as I affectionately call him, tend to go through variations of their work. The fact that he initially used a female as an antithesis to a hugeass, bulking, griffin thing's strength, is just a use or different archetypes. This does not make him sexist in the least, they are pure story elements. It's not the genitals that count in the end, it's the connection you get with the creature.

He's not a bastard. He is slightly sexist for initially thinking of a female child as the antithesis of something strong, and then eventually deciding a male child would be okay after all because "their grip is naturally stronger anyway".

So he's slightly sexist because he initially thought of a frail, young body as an antithesis to something strong? And he changes it to a smaller, slightly more built, body as the antithesis for strength?

Seriously, archetypes, artsy, looks at every aspect, it's a completely different universe from our own and it looks more like an ancient time or something, take your pick. Women in various mediums can be portrayed as weak and frail, yet wise and cunning, or seductive, or as big old haggy witches, all symbolizing something in their own right. Far as I know, boys do have a tenancy to be "stronger" than women as they grow older, that's no different than what's assumed in ancient texts and stuff.

Again, I'm not criticizing him for the fact that he chose a male protagonist over a female one. I'm criticizing him for his comments about why he made that choice.

As I said before, Fumito Ueda is pretty much the only developer out there who as artistic balls. Regardless of whether the protagonist's gender is male or female, it's not about that. It's about companionship. Women throughout the ages have been depicted as weak or frail or something, yet intelligent and wise, or seductive tempting the protagonist, etc.... Men can be depicted as strong and brutish, yet stupid and clumsy.

If Fumito Ueda had started with a young, brutish boy, who acted stupid and couldn't figure things out for himself, and then changed it to a women because "women are generally smarter", would that make him a feminist?

Your're right. His opinion on what sex would have been better for the game do not make him sexist; his reasons for that choice do.

Artistic integrity do not absolve one of making sexist choices. I applaud the fact that he has the balls to do what he thinks is best for his game, but at the same time I am still free to criticize him for those choices. By your logic we should not criticize D. W. Griffith for "Birth of a Nation".

Hell if I know what "Birth of a Nation" is, so I'll skip that.

It's just that this critisism of him being "sexist" has absolutely no basis. Again, archetypes, different interpretations and crap, whatever. He didn't switch to a young boy because he thought that all women are always weak, as some have put it, but because having a young boy would make a bit more sense in the context of his story and would prevent some people from doing a lookieloo.

Could have have put her in pants? Sure. But then you could easily spin that with "What, women aren't allowed to wear skirts? GOSH! What does it matter, dude?!" and again, from what it looks like in this universe, it looks more like an ancient, Native Indian thing, and it clearly has some different customs than ours.

There could have been, but sadly the only reasons he stated were somewhat sexist. I can only judge him on what he says, not other hypothetical reasons that he never mentions.

Would I be sexist if I started off with a man character to be an antithesis (there's the word again! He's using that world like an author would!) for his parent's intelligence over it, but I switched it to a female to be a bit more relatable, would I be "sexist" over my thoughts?

Well it depends what you are talking about. If you list me some specific things you've heard I can tell you what's true and what not, but otherwise it's kinda hard to just sum up the gender politics of an entire country in one blog post.

What we do know is that Japan is stereotypically known for their high-skirt, panty shot, young-but-not-really little girls (again, stereotype, don't know if it's true, don't care), and Fumito Ueda decided to change that to prevent possible sexualization of the character.

And we're yelling "sexist" to him?

 

[boholikeu]

While this might be true, it still begs the question of why he apparently immediately thought "female" when trying to create a weak character.

Except he didn´t want to create a "weak" character.
He wanted a character that was the anti-thesis to a massive mythical beast.
Someone that LOOKS light and fragile.

And, generally speaking, women DO look less muscular than men.
I really, really do not see what the problem is.
Are we that far down the rabbithole, that it is sacrilege to say that ?

While I might grant you that point if we are talking about adults, we're talking about children here. All children look light and fragile, so it's kind of odd that he specified female as well.

That sound you hear is my head repeatedly striking my desk over the huge amounts of sexism depicted by Fumito Ueda. First he wants a weak hero to counterbalance the strength of the creature in the game. So naturally he things of a girl. Because you know. Women are all weak, soft creatures who can never on their own be strong, independent and kick butt on their own. y'know, despite all the strong, female, independent kick butt characters in games, media and real life.

And naturally, if we have a girl character, she'll wear a skirt. Because all girls wear skirts, always. You'll never see a girl wearing pants while clinging to a monster or fighting. Besides, boys have a stronger grip.

Dear Mister Ueda. Kindly pull your head out of your ass and join us in the 21st century, where women are equals and wear pants. Thanks.

Maybe you should pull your head out of your other hole and the stick out of your ass and join us in the 21st century where science has proven as a FACT that on average females ARE physically weaker than males,

Unless you are talking about children, in which case the opposite is actually true due to the fact that girls develop faster than boys.

As for the game, I say he should have just stuck to his original idea and screw anyone that thought it was perverted. It's all in the eye of the beholder, only in America are people stupid enough to see something perverted and then shift the blame onto the creator and assume we know how they intended it without admitting that at the very least we're perverts for noticing. He shouldn't have to censor his game, the rest of us should grow up.

Given the history of upskirts in Japanese games, I don't think he was thinking about what American people think

 

[boholikeu]

If Fumito Ueda had started with a young, brutish boy, who acted stupid and couldn't figure things out for himself, and then changed it to a women because "women are generally smarter", would that make him a feminist?

Feminist =/= the female equivalent of misogynist. Don't see why people always assume that.

In any case, I don't quite see what your point is. I would be equally disappointed if Ueda were looking for a "stupid" archetype and immediately thought the character should be male because "men are stupid". That would be pretty sexist too.

Hell if I know what "Birth of a Nation" is, so I'll skip that.

Sorry, didn't mean the example to be so obscure, so I'll use a more recent one:

By your logic we can't criticize Mel Gibson for being a bigot just because he had the balls to use artistic integrity while making "Passion".

(disclaimer: haven't actually seen Passion, just going off what I heard of the movie. That's why I didn't originally use this as an example).

What we do know is that Japan is stereotypically known for their high-skirt, panty shot, young-but-not-really little girls (again, stereotype, don't know if it's true, don't care), and Fumito Ueda decided to change that to prevent possible sexualization of the character.

And we're yelling "sexist" to him?

Actually, like I said in my first post, I actually thought he was being pretty progressive when I first read the article's title. "Hey, someone's actually doing something to prevent the sexualization of a character. That's pretty cool." It was only after reading the whole story and Ueda's quotes that I became a little disappointed in his reasoning. "Errr, so you originally chose a female character because you needed something weak.. aren't all children, male and female, generally thought of as weak? And if you were that concerned about panty shots, couldn't she have just worn pants/shorts? And what's up with saying that a male child makes more sense because their 'grip strength' is better?"

I don't think Ueda is a raging misogynist because of his comments. However, it was a little disappointing to hear him say things like that. Especially because, like you, I used to defend his apparently sexist choices. I used the same "archetype" arguments that you made to defend his characterizations of females in ICO and SotC, but honestly after hearing the above comments I think he might have some prejudices after all. I mean, just using one negative female archetype doesn't say much, but when almost all of his female characters are defined by some sort of weakness it really makes you start to wonder...

 

[Admiral Stukov]

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[TheAmazingHobo]

While this might be true, it still begs the question of why he apparently immediately thought "female" when trying to create a weak character.

Except he didn´t want to create a "weak" character.
He wanted a character that was the anti-thesis to a massive mythical beast.
Someone that LOOKS light and fragile.

And, generally speaking, women DO look less muscular than men.
I really, really do not see what the problem is.
Are we that far down the rabbithole, that it is sacrilege to say that ?

While I might grant you that point if we are talking about adults, we're talking about children here. All children look light and fragile, so it's kind of odd that he specified female as well.

Though I do believe that there ARE differences in male and female children, I assume you could make the point, that they are somewhat limited. So fair enough.

To be perfectly honest, I think this discussion has reached its end, as all we are doing at this point is making assumptions about a dude no one of us ever met.
I simply wanted to point out that while his statement COULD be interpreted as somewhat sexist, it could also be interpreted as something really harmless.
Always ticks me off, when people needlessly assume the worst about other people.

 

[boholikeu]

While this might be true, it still begs the question of why he apparently immediately thought "female" when trying to create a weak character.

Except he didn´t want to create a "weak" character.
He wanted a character that was the anti-thesis to a massive mythical beast.
Someone that LOOKS light and fragile.

And, generally speaking, women DO look less muscular than men.
I really, really do not see what the problem is.
Are we that far down the rabbithole, that it is sacrilege to say that ?

While I might grant you that point if we are talking about adults, we're talking about children here. All children look light and fragile, so it's kind of odd that he specified female as well.

Though I do believe that there ARE differences in male and female children, I assume you could make the point, that they are somewhat limited. So fair enough.

To be perfectly honest, I think this discussion has reached its end, as all we are doing at this point is making assumptions about a dude no one of us ever met.
I simply wanted to point out that while his statement COULD be interpreted as somewhat sexist, it could also be interpreted as something really harmless.
Always ticks me off, when people needlessly assume the worst about other people.

I understand. Admittedly I probably wouldn't have jumped on the comment if it didn't just reinforce suspicions I've had about him based on female characterizations in his previous games.

 

[luckycharms8282]

Upskirt Danger Caused Sex Change in Ico's The Last Guardian


Of course, it begs the question as to why a Japanese developer making games for a Japanese-centric console would be so worried about upskirt shots, but I suppose Ueda has the international market to consider. Also, how about just putting the lady in pants? Seems like a much easier fix than scrapping the female character altogether.

Just saying.

Source: CVG [http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=272000?]

Permalink

I was thinking the same thing, how about some shorts? Gender stereotypes heavily affecting our games nowadays

 

[Gladion]

Yes, thank you enlightening me with your vast knowledge and explaining to me just exactly how wrong that statement was. I had never thought of it that way, as "just wrong", so I am ever so thankful for your enlightening statement.
[/clear_sarcasm]

Fumito Ueda is pretty much one of the only developers out there with some artistic balls. So people are angry that a slightly older girl was initially an antithesis to the creature's strength, so he changed it to a male child, presumably weaker in some aspects, as the new antithesis and people are crying "sexist!" about it?

You should be happy that he's even considering the concept of an antithesis at all! Contrast is important, people! [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1924-Shadow-of-the-Colossus]

Well, I at least get straight to the point. While you need three paragraphs to say "He is the only one (or at least one of the very, very few people) game developer who thinks on an artistic level", I put the exact same amount of information (namely "He is not the only game developer in the world who does think on an artistic level") in four words.
No, seriously, I'm not being sarcastic or trying to be funny or anything - as many there are of them, your words have no content whatsoever. You just state Ueda was an artist among numbnuts, then you repeat the problem you have with everyone crying about this one (very silly) topic, and that's it.
Also, you're being so overly sarcastic (and thanks for that two words in brackets you added) while on the same level doing the exact same mistakes you're insulting me for (only far worse because you make it seem you don't while I never claimed I did anything else, and, in fact, never tried to because I didn't and still don't think it's neccessary - you're just wrong on that one, there are others, a lot of them actually - it's not neccessary to go completely arthouse to get artistic) I really lose interest in discussing anything with you, particularly the "who"s and "why"s and "whatnot"s of developers being artists.

Not trying to be offensive, by the way, I just don't like it when people make fun of me, especially when I feel it's not justified.

 

[dalek sec]

And they never thought of giving this girl some bloody pants? I figured with all the climbing and stuff pants would make sense and honestly? It wouldn't have ruined the bloody game for me atleast.

 

[Jumplion]

In any case, I don't quite see what your point is. I would be equally disappointed if Ueda were looking for a "stupid" archetype and immediately thought the character should be male because "men are stupid". That would be pretty sexist too.

(just a forethought, if I'm coming off as a bit aggressive I apologize, I'm always open for discussion, just, you know, keep it civil, both of us)

Then you, my dear friend, are a bit too sensitive I would say. Men and women have different archetypes with it, some of them are interchangable between genders.

But all of this is pointless really, the fact that the protagonist was initially women just because it would be an antithesis (there's that word again, never heard a developer use that...) to a giant, fuck-mothering beast I feel is moot.

Again, this probably happened very early in the development of the game, and it's not like Fumito Ueda is intentionally trying to be sexist, if he was.

By your logic we can't criticize Mel Gibson for being a bigot just because he had the balls to use artistic integrity while making "Passion".

(disclaimer: haven't actually seen Passion, just going off what I heard of the movie. That's why I didn't originally use this as an example).

Eh, hadn't seen "Passion" either, but as far as I know it was basically torture porn depicting the death of Christ. If it had a bunch of fat, big-nosed, Jews guffawing at Christ or something, then sure, I guess it'd be bigoted, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be regarded on other merits (coming from a Jew, if that makes any difference.

Actually, like I said in my first post, I actually thought he was being pretty progressive when I first read the article's title. "Hey, someone's actually doing something to prevent the sexualization of a character. That's pretty cool." It was only after reading the whole story and Ueda's quotes that I became a little disappointed in his reasoning. "Errr, so you originally chose a female character because you needed something weak.. aren't all children, male and female, generally thought of as weak? And if you were that concerned about panty shots, couldn't she have just worn pants/shorts? And what's up with saying that a male child makes more sense because their 'grip strength' is better?"

Again, with the pants, oy vey. I'm not going to pretend like I know the whole ICO universe (though I probably am, unintentionally), but as far as I can tell it's an ancient, native land or something, and women generally wore skirts or something and men with togas or whateverthehell the boy's wearing.

Quite frankly, the age difference between "young, female adolecent" (12? 13?) and "young, male child" (11? maybe 10?), I don't think is enough to really say one has more "grip strength" than the other. That, and most "gamers", I guess, are male, so take that how you will.

And really, as I've said, it's not about independence or anything, it's quite the opposite. Team ICO games generally have a companionship theme to them, needing someone else to go on, having a goal that is so close yet so far.

I don't think Ueda is a raging misogynist because of his comments. However, it was a little disappointing to hear him say things like that. Especially because, like you, I used to defend his apparently sexist choices. I used the same "archetype" arguments that you made to defend his characterizations of females in ICO and SotC, but honestly after hearing the above comments I think he might have some prejudices after all. I mean, just using one negative female archetype doesn't say much, but when almost all of his female characters are defined by some sort of weakness it really makes you start to wonder...

Then, quite frankly, I think you're overreacting. Despite what Yahtzee may joke about, the girls in the other ICO games are not really from "predjudice" or whater. The girl in ICO was noticeably older than the boy, and pure white, indicating purity and stuff, a common story archetype. She is your only companion, and you can't even speak to each other, and your bond grows just by holding hands. It's a classic damsel in distress, and while that concept is probably dated and sexist or whatever, it's still presented with a large amount of poignancy. The girl in SotC was the center of the whole story, again she was pure white with purity, and she was dead. Wander, the main character, and subsequently the player, goes to enormous lengths to bring her back from the dead even at the cost of his own soul. His female characters are not defined by their weakness, they're defined by their purity and connection with them. It's not about being independent or self reliant, it's about dependency and companionship.

The thing about "women and weakness" and stuff regarding this game is that it's not intended the way you're thinking it. Regardless if the protagonist was male or female, they're still weak compared to the giant fucking griffin. An unsexualized female will go hand in hand with independence and whatnot, but quite frankly I think everyone is taking way too much offense to an offhanded statement. I mean, whether or not Ueda is "sexist" or whatever doesn't change the overall point of the game.

...Not trying to be offensive, by the way, I just don't like it when people make fun of me, especially when I feel it's not justified.

I truely do apologize, I was just getting riled up. I didn't mean to antagonize you in any negative way or anything, it's just that saying "This is just wrong" doesn't help discussion or help me understand why you think that way.

No, seriously, I'm not being sarcastic or trying to be funny or anything - as many there are of them, your words have no content whatsoever. You just state Ueda was an artist among numbnuts, then you repeat the problem you have with everyone crying about this one (very silly) topic, and that's it.

Sorry, I like the sound of my own voice as you can tell

Also, you're being so overly sarcastic (and thanks for that two words in brackets you added) while on the same level doing the exact same mistakes you're insulting me for (only far worse because you make it seem you don't while I never claimed I did anything else, and, in fact, never tried to because I didn't and still don't think it's neccessary - you're just wrong on that one, there are others, a lot of them actually - it's not neccessary to go completely arthouse to get artistic) I really lose interest in discussing anything with you, particularly the "who"s and "why"s and "whatnot"s of developers being artists.

Again, I truly do apologize if I came off as insulting your intelligence, I really didn't mean to make it come off that way. I was really trying to goad you into giving me more information (in my own special little way apparently) on what you were saying. I would love to continue this conversation, I do take back what I said before as I didn't say it in the best of light.

So, if you're still willing to debate, I would love to know why my thought was "just wrong", I really do, no sarcasm this time.

 

[boholikeu]

snip

Jumplion, I think you might just have taken my comments the wrong way.

I don't think that ICO games are horribly sexist, nor do I think Ueda is a crazy woman-hater. I just thought his comments were a little off and unfortunate.

Perhaps he has a really good reason why the protagonist would HAVE to wear a skirt if she was a girl, but he doesn't mention it. All he notes is her gender. Similarly, he brings up the character's gender when mentioning that originally he wanted a weaker looking character. Presumably the fact that it's a child should be enough to fit that bill, but he further specifies that he wanted a female child. Why say that unless you think the gender is relevant?

Again, I don't think this means the ICO game are purposefully discriminatory, or even that Ueda's a bad guy. It's just a little disappointing.

 

[Jumplion]

snip

Jumplion, I think you might just have taken my comments the wrong way.

I love the sound of my own voice, so I tend to trail off at times

I don't think that ICO games are horribly sexist, nor do I think Ueda is a crazy woman-hater. I just thought his comments were a little off and unfortunate.

That makes everything much more clear. Your original post I quoted gave me a feeling that you were just hating on him because he was "sexist" or whatever, coming off a and bit more aggressive than was needed for an offhanded remark.

Perhaps he has a really good reason why the protagonist would HAVE to wear a skirt if she was a girl, but he doesn't mention it. All he notes is her gender. Similarly, he brings up the character's gender when mentioning that originally he wanted a weaker looking character. Presumably the fact that it's a child should be enough to fit that bill, but he further specifies that he wanted a female child. Why say that unless you think the gender is relevant?

The boy still wears a skirt/toga thing, so that aesthetic probably goes into the world. I've only seen most characters in the ICO-verse wear skirt-things, maybe the boy in ICO wore pants or something.

Quite frankly I think you're delving into his words too deeply. The decision to change the gender of the character was probably very early in the game, the first screenshots we had was of the current one. And frankly, far as I know, young women around that age can be weaker than boys at that game, but that's just some biology I probably pulled out of my ass.

I don't think the gender of the character matters when it come to strength when it's being compared to a giant goddamn griffin.

 

[Ralen-Sharr]

video game upskirts are that big of a deal?

If it's that bad, put biker shorts on her or something. Or the pants idea.

 

[boholikeu]

snip

Jumplion, I think you might just have taken my comments the wrong way.

I love the sound of my own voice, so I tend to trail off at times

I don't think that ICO games are horribly sexist, nor do I think Ueda is a crazy woman-hater. I just thought his comments were a little off and unfortunate.

That makes everything much more clear. Your original post I quoted gave me a feeling that you were just hating on him because he was "sexist" or whatever, coming off a and bit more aggressive than was needed for an offhanded remark.

Cool, glad I could clarify that then =)

Perhaps he has a really good reason why the protagonist would HAVE to wear a skirt if she was a girl, but he doesn't mention it. All he notes is her gender. Similarly, he brings up the character's gender when mentioning that originally he wanted a weaker looking character. Presumably the fact that it's a child should be enough to fit that bill, but he further specifies that he wanted a female child. Why say that unless you think the gender is relevant?

The boy still wears a skirt/toga thing, so that aesthetic probably goes into the world. I've only seen most characters in the ICO-verse wear skirt-things, maybe the boy in ICO wore pants or something.

That's fair then, although I still have to question why he didn't just say "We wanted the character to wear a skirt/toga, but if the character was female it might distract/give certain players the wrong idea".

Quite frankly I think you're delving into his words too deeply. The decision to change the gender of the character was probably very early in the game, the first screenshots we had was of the current one. And frankly, far as I know, young women around that age can be weaker than boys at that game, but that's just some biology I probably pulled out of my ass.

I'm pretty sure girls that age tend to be a little bigger/stronger looking because young girls develop faster than boys. If the main character were a teenager it might be different, but I seem to remember him being an adolescent.

I don't think the gender of the character matters when it come to strength when it's being compared to a giant goddamn griffin.

Again, I agree, so why did Ueda feel the character's gender was significant enough to bring up in the interview?

 

[KungFuCthulhu]

I am disappointed at this news but oh well I'll get over it.

 

[Impluse_101]

A little bit of things I'd like to add to this.

First, a question. Would a Girl really climb around on climbs in a skirt?
Thats just logicly speaking
Second, nothing WRONG with changing it to a boy...though with a girl character, I think personally it would be more interesting story wise, and I would kinda like to see it in a game like this.
Third, she could even be of a athletic build, you know, raised in a village with a whole bunch of other people who liked climbing...that kinda thing. That'd be a startin point.

Quote me to comment on this if you'd like. I don't mind.

 

[Vivvav]

Hell, guys, you don't even have to put her in pants. Just pull a Miyazaki and tastefully put her in bloomers.

 

[Aethren]

Am I the only one who thought about putting the boy in skirts upon reading this?