US(and a bunch of other places) vs Libya, GO!

Recommended Videos

Throwitawaynow

New member
Aug 29, 2010
759
0
0
Maraveno said:
Bad Neighbour said:
Maraveno said:
Bad Neighbour said:
Maraveno said:
The definition of genocide is the murder of a particular people usually designed around personal traits

This however is just the quelling of a rebellion be it righteous or not
Who cares whether or not it fits the dictionary definition of genocide? It's mass murder, I think those words carry enough weight too. What Gaddafi is doing is vicious, immoral and quite frankly evil to most people's eyes, who gives a damn what word we use for it?
No the point is it's not mass murder

He's not systematically rooting out his population

He's fighting a war against rebels

A flatout victory would mean he vanquished the rebels that were trying to take over
I'm not saying I support his cause.
I'm only stating that slating this with mass murder is like
A teacher being branded a pedophile for shouting at a kid who struck him
We're talking about someone who called airstrikes on demonstrators here, not just someone retaliating. Killing the guys with guns might not be murder, but killing the guys with signs certainly is.
even when sending the army at demonstrators you're not mass murdering
It's certainly wrong I don't agree with it anymore than you do

But it's not mass murder and certainly not genocide

Or ar you telling me he's driven half his countries population into a ditchhelplessly and left the rest to shoot at them?

This usage of terms is the exact reason why political debate allways shoots at the wrong targets

Cause people brand stuff so easily
I saw you quote genocide to someone earlier, here you go:
Mass murder (in military contexts, sometimes interchangeable with "mass destruction") is the act of murdering a large number of people (four or more), typically at the same time or over a relatively short period of time.
84 deaths on a friday night, 18 at a funeral.

How many people need to die in your book, for you to call it mass murder?
 

Bad Neighbour

New member
Jan 14, 2009
132
0
0
Maraveno said:
even when sending the army at demonstrators you're not mass murdering
It's certainly wrong I don't agree with it anymore than you do

But it's not mass murder and certainly not genocide

Or ar you telling me he's driven half his countries population into a ditchhelplessly and left the rest to shoot at them?

This usage of terms is the exact reason why political debate allways shoots at the wrong targets

Cause people brand stuff so easily
... well what the hell is the word for it then?

You can call it whatever you like, but if we started shooting people camping outside Westminster with signs, I can't think of a better word than murder, and whether that's the technical word for what Gaddafi's doing or not it's to the same effect as far as I'm concerned. People who are unarmed and being run down by tanks under his orders. I don't think I'm going to be heavily accused of shooting at the wrong targets by branding him a murderer. I can understand how it's not genocide obviously, but I think it's also pretty bloody obvious what the guy meant when he said it.
 

Loud Hawk

New member
Jun 8, 2009
204
0
0
Macrobstar said:
War. War never changes
"War has changed.

It's not about nations, or ideologies.
It's not even about profit, resources, or ethnicity.

It's an endless series of proxy battles,
fought by mercenaries and machines.

War, and its vast consumption of human life,
has become a rational, well-oiled business transaction.

War has changed.

ID-tagged soldiers carry ID-tagged weapons,
use ID-tagged gear.

Nanomachines inside their bodies
enhance and regulate their actions.

Genetic control.. Information control..
Emotion control.. Battlefield control.

Everything is monitored, and kept under control.

War has changed.

The age of deterrence is now the age of control,
averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction.

And he who controls the battlefield, controls history.

War has changed.

When the battlefield is under total control,

war becomes routine."


Sorry, had to.

OT: Why do I just feel that the US are letting France take the first hit, so that they don't seem like the country that started it.
 

Bad Neighbour

New member
Jan 14, 2009
132
0
0
"1854: The spokesman said all Libyan armed forces units have been told to follow a ceasefire, beginning at 2100 local time."

Wonder if they actually stick to this one.
 

Watson767

New member
Apr 20, 2010
52
0
0
Libya ceasefire, its over anyway.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Video-Libya-US-To-Conduct-More-Air-Strikes-Senior-Official-Says-As-The-Arab-League-Criticises/Article/201103315956219?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15956219_Video%2C_Libya%3A_US_To_Conduct_More_Air_Strikes%2C_Senior_Official_Says%2C_As_The_Arab_League_Criticises
 

SovietSecrets

iDrink, iSmoke, iPill
Nov 16, 2008
3,975
0
0
Doug said:
EcksTeaSea said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972

I can see this ending well for the rebellion.
So, the French start this, and yet you jump up with "US (and some people who don't matter), wooooooo!"
Ah yes you found out my secret, I am a American fanatic that thinks the US is the most important place in the world and that no other country matters, well done.

Watson767 said:
Libya ceasefire, its over anyway.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Video-Libya-US-To-Conduct-More-Air-Strikes-Senior-Official-Says-As-The-Arab-League-Criticises/Article/201103315956219?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15956219_Video%2C_Libya%3A_US_To_Conduct_More_Air_Strikes%2C_Senior_Official_Says%2C_As_The_Arab_League_Criticises
Not really over considering nowhere was it said that they actually planned on keeping it.

"Benghazi had come under fierce attack on Saturday despite Libya announcing a ceasefire, and a rebel-operated fighter jet crashed in a fireball in the southern suburbs of the city".

"But a regime spokesman denied that Libyan forces had broken the ceasefire and reading a letter sent by Col Gaddafi to Mr Cameron, he said: "You will regret it if you take a step towards intervening in our internal affairs, in our country".
 

Throwitawaynow

New member
Aug 29, 2010
759
0
0
EcksTeaSea said:
Doug said:
EcksTeaSea said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972

I can see this ending well for the rebellion.
So, the French start this, and yet you jump up with "US (and some people who don't matter), wooooooo!"
Ah yes you found out my secret, I am a American fanatic that thinks the US is the most important place in the world and that no other country matters, well done.
I actually thought about from the other way, "US the warmongers have started another war and dragged other countries with them." Mostly because of the way the forums have been gravitating towards.
 

Bad Neighbour

New member
Jan 14, 2009
132
0
0
Oh dear god look at this:

"We don't think the massive aerial bombardment is going to help bring about peace and democracy in Libya. Cruise missiles may be killing children as we speak." Kate Hudson.

Apparently Libyan children use anti-aircraft guns as climbing frames.
 

RamirezDoEverything

New member
Jan 31, 2010
1,167
0
0
Rationalization said:
RamirezDoEverything said:
Souplex said:
I don't get how they can go after Libya, and continue to ignore North Korea.
There's oil in Libya, and the prices are fluctuating around the world because of it. North Korea has no oil, so no one cares.
North Korea is using helicopters and tanks to kill civilians en masse? Holy shit, I didn't know.
But it's not our civilians..
 

Mechanix

New member
Dec 12, 2009
587
0
0
aquaman839 said:
As an american citizen it is getting old of this nation constantly getting involved in the matters of others. America is broke we have invaded two muslim nations on questionable to false pretenses. I think countries should be allowed to handle their own business. The headlines say that its the UN but how often do these multinational colaitions become US. We have enough problems domestically.
By offering our help to establish this no-fly zone, we can reasonably estimate this civil war will be over with pretty quickly, which will end Qaddafi's killing of his own citizens. The least the US can do is send over a few missiles and save a few hundred lives, and then we can get back to pointing fingers at scapegoats.
 

PatrickXD

New member
Aug 13, 2009
977
0
0
Well I guess we'll be seeing some heavily armed terrorists on the horizon pretty soon. Don't get me wrong I would have done no different if I were in charge, but it's easy for us to poke holes. The biggest one I can find is the provocation for Col. Sanders to arm his people. Of course, that means the terrorists that we be a-fightin'
 

Bad Neighbour

New member
Jan 14, 2009
132
0
0
This march they're talking about makes me feel a little uneasy. You wonder what their motives really are..
 

Bad Neighbour

New member
Jan 14, 2009
132
0
0
Anoni Mus said:
JWAN said:
Anoni Mus said:
This is retarded. Let their people solve their problems, specially when the actions taken by US/UN are masked with other intentions.

If you want to be the good guys and save the World from the bad guys why didn't UN take down Bush? Hell, why don't you come here (Portugal) and take Jose Socrates from us since he's doing shit.

Unless it's a really serious genocide situation, which is not, stop medling your nose when you're not called for.
Your right, we should wait for the bodies to be stacked waist deep before we stop the madman in charge. Or in Saddams case, let him get away with starving his people as long as he floods France with oil.
To you and Bad Neighbour:

Would you Like if UN made actions on the US for the fact they violate Human Rights?

Each people should know and fight for the way their country should take. Military action goes against it, specially when they DO IT NOT FOR PEACE OR FREEDOM! UN are doing imperialism measures.
It wouldn't bother me at all, if America (or indeed England, where I in fact come from, thanks though) got in trouble for breaching human rights. Luckily for us though I don't think that either America or Britain have done anything nearly as bad as this in terms of human rights for a very long time. If you're talking about the death penalty please give it a rest. I don't exactly support it but I'm not going to make lots of noise because the most vile people in America are put down.

The UN are going in to put a stop to what Gaddafi is doing to people, pure and simple. There's no occupying troops going in right now, there's no talk of putting in a new government or whatever. The rebels themselves say they want democracy if you read the interviews that have been carried out. If we were forcing imperialism (what?) or whateverthehell the rebels would tell us to fuck right off. We're going in to help people and they want us there. You're more than welcome to go up to Gaddafi and try to talk him out of it instead but I would wager he wouldn't give two shits without a gun to his head.
 

Arif_Sohaib

New member
Jan 16, 2011
355
0
0
Warboss Robgutz said:
Arif_Sohaib said:
Warboss Robgutz said:
aquaman839 said:
As an american citizen it is getting old of this nation constantly getting involved in the matters of others. America is broke we have invaded two muslim nations on questionable to false pretenses. I think countries should be allowed to handle their own business. The headlines say that its the UN but how often do these multinational colaitions become US. We have enough problems domestically.
Because the last time the most powerful nation in the world told a multinational organisation (the league of nations) that it had it's own problems and it couldn't be assed helping out, the said organisation bent over backwards and got a Severe Rodding from every tyrant and dictator going. America is the only western nation powerful enough to back UN resolutions and it has a responsibility to champion the virtues it's supposed to be so proud of (freedom, democracy, equality etc) and defend those who share simlar views, because if it didn't...no one else will. (dey aint got the ballz)
Every dictator is not Hitler. That monster is dead and has been for more than 60 years. It was the only time a war was justified and now it is over. Get over it.
Hitler was invading countries left,right and center and abusing his own citizens horribly. Tell me the name of one country Qaddafi has invaded in the last five years. Tell me the name of one ethnic group he has destroyed. When revolts started in Egypt, the US was actually contemplating assisting the dictator because he bent over on their every whim without caring what his people wanted, the same case is probably there in Bahrain and Yemen and would be there in case of revolt in Saudi Arabia.
America did the same kind of meddling in Pakistan against Musharraf when he questioned the drone attacks by bringing Mr 10% to power. And in Iran by supporting the Shah and killing Mosaddegh.
Oh, So if a dictator isn't as bad as Hitler, then thats ok then? i was not just referencing That particular douchbag, but every other nation or leader from stalin to The Showa dynasty that ignored the league of nations because it had NO POWER, and why did it have no power, because america refused to back it.
And how can you compare eygypts situation to the libyan one? sure, mubarak was determined to hang onto his presidency for as long as possible, but at least he didn;t commit the wholesale slaughter of his own people just for demonstrating.
and you dont think Quaddaffi wouldn't invade every country he could if only he had the power? This is the man who would eagerly "wipe switzerland off the face of the world" if only he had nuclear weapons, who thinks that "HIV is a peacful virus" because it kills gays, who sent soldiers to support the crumbling dictatorship of the genocidal maniac idi armin so that he could murder his own people, 600 of which died when the regime finally fell.
This is a man who Bombed MY COUNTRY, Great Britain, then demanded the monster responsible return to libya for a sickening hero's welcome.
this is the man who supported other EVIL men convicted of both crimes against humanity and war crimes like Mengistu Haile Mariam and Malosevic.
This is a man who thinks he can do what he wants, when he wants, because russia and china always run to his side like a wounded puppy any time the western world so much as tuts' in his direction.
The man is nothing more than a psychotic thug, something he passed on to his vidictive little shit of a son who claims diplomatic immunity any time he decides to assault a police officer.
but i guess he learnt that from his dad who seems to think it's fair game to shoot at them from inside of the London Embassy.
His Crimes are many. Do not defend him.
I never said he was perfect. But the people invading him aren't either. And they have a history of constantly other countries' sovereignty. You did not even comment on my Mossadegh or Batista example.
The cultural and religious differences as well as historical problems between the west and east makes this situation much different from Hitler. The people of Libya have many reasons to hate you and this intervention gives them more. You had colonized them. Imagine your Queen suddenly deciding to depose the British government. Between Germany or Pakistan, which one would you prefer to intervene? Or would you prefer a rebellion by your own people on their own and then deposing the dictator on your own terms?
And if you love World War 2 so much I will give you an example of people you were tring to 'help' then. Remember that before 1947 your country had power over the whole Indo-Pak subcontinent? Look up something called the Bengel Famine of 1943. Your country was responsible for the deaths of more than 3 million people. And even then the All India Muslim League supported the war effort.
You use Muslims like this and this is how you repay us? Invasion? Target killing? Killing and then demanding diplomatic immunity? Killing 40 civilians in a recent drone attack?
How many Muslims do you want to kill?
Your thirst for oil is bringing the world dangerously close to World War 3 and yet you support the invasion of the third Muslim country?
Just imagine how this looks to our eyes. And then you call us terrorists and say we hate the west?
Please try to look at things from another country's perspective for once.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Solon_Mega said:
Better not to mess with China. Fallout 3 taught us something, and that is to NEVER F***ing piss of China.

Not so much, Fallout 3 was just dealing with a clash of super powers, using a retro future MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) logic. China was simply used because it's the current "evil empire" and the only group that could credibly challenge the US. Back when they did Wasteland which was Fallout's direct ancestor they used the Russians.

It's increasingly off subject, but one of the big moral debates right now when it comes to international strategy is whether or not the US should pre-emptively attack China. The reason being is that they are rapidly becoming a serious threat globally, and have been making a lot of noise behind The Bamboo curtain about counquering the world, for living space, resources, revenge, and of course destiny. The thing is though that as time goes on, MAD means less and less. ICBM delivered WMD was king for decades, but right now we're seeing effective countermeasures. MAD remained a balancing factor with the USSR because neither the US or USSR developed direct countermeasures to maintain the balance of power by treaty. When the USSR fell the US developed interception missles of great sophistication which we have demonstrated during "The War On Terror" and which has slotted them off to no end because Russia felt thos treaties should have been in force, while we argued that the USSR was gone. This was at the heart of WHY Russia got so upset about those missle interception bases present in Poland during the whole Georgia invasion thing because their prescence does a lot to pen Russia in. At any rate China is developing their own countermeasures, and their approach is a bit differant from ours, they are using ground based lasers of substantial power to blind satellites to make targeting and satellite reconaissance very difficult. There are articles on this if you do a search for China, Satellite, and Lasers as key words (and a lot of articles no less). China is also building up it's navy so it can project it's military, if you read up on the "Yuan Class" submarine, and about an incident involving the US Carrier "Kittyhawke", the implications are disturbing. Simply put a World War III scenario is liable to involve conventional warfare, as WMD will require something akin to physical delivery of the weapons. Due to simple manpower with the our edge becoming substantially reduced, and WMD off the table as they are now, time does very much play to China.

There is a lot of conflict between "moralists" and "militants" right now over whether China should be pre-emptively attacked and kept down until it inevitably starts a war we will definatly be facing an uphill battle to win. It's need for resources, living space, and other things means that it's not going to remain "peaceful" and content to merely exercise soft power forever, it's under too many very real pressures, not to mention the sheer anger over things like being "trivialized" globally, and things like "the Opium Wars". People of course hate wars, and China is offering some very beneficial trade right now.

Right now moralists definatly have a lead, and prefer to remain entirely reactive, especially in light of short term benefits. Hence why people walk on relative eggshells on issues like North Korea. As well as issues like what happens if North Korea decides it wants to take South Korea with it of course.
 

Solon_Mega

New member
Feb 7, 2011
70
0
0
Therumancer said:
Solon_Mega said:
Better not to mess with China. Fallout 3 taught us something, and that is to NEVER F***ing piss of China.

Not so much, Fallout 3 was just dealing with a clash of super powers, using a retro future MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) logic. China was simply used because it's the current "evil empire" and the only group that could credibly challenge the US. Back when they did Wasteland which was Fallout's direct ancestor they used the Russians.

It's increasingly off subject, but one of the big moral debates right now when it comes to international strategy is whether or not the US should pre-emptively attack China. The reason being is that they are rapidly becoming a serious threat globally, and have been making a lot of noise behind The Bamboo curtain about counquering the world, for living space, resources, revenge, and of course destiny. The thing is though that as time goes on, MAD means less and less. ICBM delivered WMD was king for decades, but right now we're seeing effective countermeasures. MAD remained a balancing factor with the USSR because neither the US or USSR developed direct countermeasures to maintain the balance of power by treaty. When the USSR fell the US developed interception missles of great sophistication which we have demonstrated during "The War On Terror" and which has slotted them off to no end because Russia felt thos treaties should have been in force, while we argued that the USSR was gone. This was at the heart of WHY Russia got so upset about those missle interception bases present in Poland during the whole Georgia invasion thing because their prescence does a lot to pen Russia in. At any rate China is developing their own countermeasures, and their approach is a bit differant from ours, they are using ground based lasers of substantial power to blind satellites to make targeting and satellite reconaissance very difficult. There are articles on this if you do a search for China, Satellite, and Lasers as key words (and a lot of articles no less). China is also building up it's navy so it can project it's military, if you read up on the "Yuan Class" submarine, and about an incident involving the US Carrier "Kittyhawke", the implications are disturbing. Simply put a World War III scenario is liable to involve conventional warfare, as WMD will require something akin to physical delivery of the weapons. Due to simple manpower with the our edge becoming substantially reduced, and WMD off the table as they are now, time does very much play to China.

There is a lot of conflict between "moralists" and "militants" right now over whether China should be pre-emptively attacked and kept down until it inevitably starts a war we will definatly be facing an uphill battle to win. It's need for resources, living space, and other things means that it's not going to remain "peaceful" and content to merely exercise soft power forever, it's under too many very real pressures, not to mention the sheer anger over things like being "trivialized" globally, and things like "the Opium Wars". People of course hate wars, and China is offering some very beneficial trade right now.

Right now moralists definatly have a lead, and prefer to remain entirely reactive, especially in light of short term benefits. Hence why people walk on relative eggshells on issues like North Korea. As well as issues like what happens if North Korea decides it wants to take South Korea with it of course.
Ok from the joke comes seriousness. Like how that works.

I personaly dont think that china is a threat as you say. Of course it is becoming more and more like a resouce devouring Leviatan. But a war only makes this worse. If China already has problems in getting resources, and distribuig those resources evenly (not much communist in this department) a full scale war might raise that resource need treshold even higher, to a point where they might succomb in a lenghy conflict.

Strategicly, taking a region for resources means to take down any resistance, holding the ground against constant foreing counter-attacks, while at the same time rebuilding all the destroyed infra-estructure to even BE able to harness the natural resources. Not an easy task even if we only think locally. All the worse in a gloval war cenario. And lets face it, besides North Korea (Witch, without WMDs is just a sitting duck) China does not has many friends in his facebook acount. Unless you think Russia will step up for the job? Nah.

Altogh we tend to fantasy, China cannot, and I repeat: CHINA CANNOT ZERG RUSH THE WORLD.