Used Games are simply another form of Piracy (THQ joins EA to stop the used games market)
- Thread starter Sneaklemming
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Right, but the only person making a profit is the retail stores. Using Craigslist or something like that is more what you're talking about, and that's fine.Hubilub said:
But for retail?:
You - lose money.
Developers - lose money
Customers - saves a little bit of money.
Retail - makes more moolah than Scrooge McDuck.
http://jimberkin.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/scrooge-mcduck-make-it-rain.jpg
It's worse than piracy, because instead of losing bored kids' money, somebody else is actively TAKING your money from customers who are looking to buy your game.
If Alice buys a game, she owns it. If she then gives that copy to Bob, Bob owns it. No problem.
If Alice instead makes a copy of the game and gives it to Bob, she has violated the company's intellectual property rights. This is wrong - except in the cases where the game has a limit of 5 installs but doesn't need the disc to be played, in which case Alice can do whatever she wants with the extra 4 copies. Though Alice has broken the law, the maximum loss of 1 sale isn't a major problem for the company.
If Alice makes 10,000 copies, however, the greater potential loss means the act is more wrong. Alice has violated the company's intellectual property rights, although any individual who accepts a copy from Alice hasn't committed a particularly bad act.
If Alice sells her 10,000 copies instead of giving them away, she's still a criminal. However, because she profits from the crime and pays no royalties to the company, she's in deeper shit.
Under Canadian law, Alice would not be in legal trouble if the video game company no longer profits from sales of the game. Pirating a forgotten 25-year-old NES game would technically be acceptable, but thanks to Virtual Console, copying and distributing Super Mario Bros. would be wrong. Of course, the property is well-known enough that many ports of it could be considered acceptable use under Canadian or US parody laws.
If Alice instead makes a copy of the game and gives it to Bob, she has violated the company's intellectual property rights. This is wrong - except in the cases where the game has a limit of 5 installs but doesn't need the disc to be played, in which case Alice can do whatever she wants with the extra 4 copies. Though Alice has broken the law, the maximum loss of 1 sale isn't a major problem for the company.
If Alice makes 10,000 copies, however, the greater potential loss means the act is more wrong. Alice has violated the company's intellectual property rights, although any individual who accepts a copy from Alice hasn't committed a particularly bad act.
If Alice sells her 10,000 copies instead of giving them away, she's still a criminal. However, because she profits from the crime and pays no royalties to the company, she's in deeper shit.
Under Canadian law, Alice would not be in legal trouble if the video game company no longer profits from sales of the game. Pirating a forgotten 25-year-old NES game would technically be acceptable, but thanks to Virtual Console, copying and distributing Super Mario Bros. would be wrong. Of course, the property is well-known enough that many ports of it could be considered acceptable use under Canadian or US parody laws.
I'm glad we could get discussion on this... but it kinda went a bit far... I'll have a read tomorrow and see if I've been convinced. =P
With theft, the prices of games sold in stores become higher, tempting more people to torrent/pirate them. This, in turn, would cause publishers to push for tougher piracy laws, which would encourage theft, and etc.Fredrik Engberg said:
Sounds like an Oceans 9000 job to me. Publishers cannot be reasoned with. Let's go with theft. ^_^
Why don't we all just not buy the next EA sports games that incorporate the serial keys. They pretty much release the same sport games every year with updated rosters. Just play the copies you have now (or buy the older games, if you don't already have them), EA will take a huge hit, and they will realize that serial keys are a horrible idea. Crazy concept I know, but it might be crazy enough to work.
Clearly I'm not the only one who thinks this, but; That is Freakin' Ridiculous!!!exclamation mark! I mean, I can see their point, but technically if I bought a game, I should have the right to sell it. By their logic, people should by directly from the farmers because if the farmers sell it to woolworths, then the second sale doesn't profit the farmer. Technically yes, in the case of a game 'two people have played the game for a single sale' but at no one time can both of those people be playing the game, when the first sells it, he/she can no longer play it, it isn't like it is now owned by two people. So really, to compare piracy and second-hand sales is like comparing apples and oranges in that they are both fruit (don't super-profit the dev.) but have different tastes, textures, smells, colours, etc (are, for the most important part, different).
Basically, one copy of a game can only be played once at any one time, just like only one person can drive a used-car at any one time, or only one person can be holding the avacado at a time. [sub]Yes I see the similarities but, like the apples and oranges thing, just because they are both fruit doesn't mean they are both apples or both oranges, it just means they are both fruit[/sub]
Basically, one copy of a game can only be played once at any one time, just like only one person can drive a used-car at any one time, or only one person can be holding the avacado at a time. [sub]Yes I see the similarities but, like the apples and oranges thing, just because they are both fruit doesn't mean they are both apples or both oranges, it just means they are both fruit[/sub]
Used games are not piracy. When you make a product in business a long time is spent discussing what the proper price is and how much is produced. Let us throw up a hypothetical situation.
Company A makes game B. It figures that if it sells game B at a price of $35 it will need to sell 1000 copies of the game to break even(which for those without business experience, it means that you cover your basic costs aka employee's salaries, development costs etc). So they set the price at $70 so they can make a profit(rarely are products sold less than double the cost it takes to break even).
Three Situations can occur from here.
1) Game B sells really really well. There is a high demand for it in the market. The 1000 copies put out sold incredibly fast so now they have covered their basic costs. Now for every copy they sell they are making an even greater profit.
2) Game B sells about average. They sell the thousand copies. Not much hype for the product but the fact is that they already make their profit and covered the basic cost so they can move on to the next project with ease.
3) Game B sells poorly. There is no hype for the game maybe due to poor marketing or maybe just because the products target market just does not like it(could also just be a bad game). Game B has sold 500 games or less. If sold exactly 500 games because of the price they still exactly break even. If less, the company has to make a choice either to keep outputting the game to try and break even or cut their losses.
But how do Used games fit into this?
In explaining this incredibly basic version of the pricing system, from the original sales te price SHOULD cover all the costs made. Meaning the resale of the game which is now under the consumer's ownership does not hurt the company at all. They are just trying to squeeze money out of you. The reason MMO's get away with the monthly fee (and things like the Xbox Live service) is because it costs money to keep the servers going and to continuously maintain the products quality through online interaction.
tl;dr: Used game sales do not impact the company whatsoever. EA is trying to squeeze money out of you.
Company A makes game B. It figures that if it sells game B at a price of $35 it will need to sell 1000 copies of the game to break even(which for those without business experience, it means that you cover your basic costs aka employee's salaries, development costs etc). So they set the price at $70 so they can make a profit(rarely are products sold less than double the cost it takes to break even).
Three Situations can occur from here.
1) Game B sells really really well. There is a high demand for it in the market. The 1000 copies put out sold incredibly fast so now they have covered their basic costs. Now for every copy they sell they are making an even greater profit.
2) Game B sells about average. They sell the thousand copies. Not much hype for the product but the fact is that they already make their profit and covered the basic cost so they can move on to the next project with ease.
3) Game B sells poorly. There is no hype for the game maybe due to poor marketing or maybe just because the products target market just does not like it(could also just be a bad game). Game B has sold 500 games or less. If sold exactly 500 games because of the price they still exactly break even. If less, the company has to make a choice either to keep outputting the game to try and break even or cut their losses.
But how do Used games fit into this?
In explaining this incredibly basic version of the pricing system, from the original sales te price SHOULD cover all the costs made. Meaning the resale of the game which is now under the consumer's ownership does not hurt the company at all. They are just trying to squeeze money out of you. The reason MMO's get away with the monthly fee (and things like the Xbox Live service) is because it costs money to keep the servers going and to continuously maintain the products quality through online interaction.
tl;dr: Used game sales do not impact the company whatsoever. EA is trying to squeeze money out of you.
Do they ever consider that people want to play a game even AFTER they've stopped making new copies, and that's how people get into the franchise and no matter what number it is, if it's after a loved franchise that people played after the fact they'll buy it? Or how about that not everyone can afford new games but still want to feed the monster that is the entertainment market.
The only reason I own more than one Madden game is because I got the others used at low prices. If I wanted to spend $60 on a game that will be more and more obsolete every year I'd still live at home with mommy and daddy and stop buying food. But I like being on my own and also eating so I spend little amounts on the older games since half of the time they're better anyway because any game that requires management and office work to get to playing the game should burn in hell for being so evil and stupid
Used games sell sequels, since not everyone will risk full price on a fresh game that few know about when they can spend it on the latest Final Fantasy game that they've been jerking each other off for for a number of years.
At least used games let those who aren't able to afford the big bucked new franchise games be gamers, and then the money they use to buy it goes into keeping game stores afloat to actually receive more new shiny copies for the impatient people to spend lots of money on. Plus, at least they spend MONEY on the games, rather than download and burn it to a disc or whatever, at least they do it legally. People outside of the Gaming Culture and those in it who are in it for solely the money and have no shred of self respect are fucking it up and pissing off those who spend their extra money that they saved by buying it used on more merchandise to fill up their nerd rooms or the top of their television
The only reason I own more than one Madden game is because I got the others used at low prices. If I wanted to spend $60 on a game that will be more and more obsolete every year I'd still live at home with mommy and daddy and stop buying food. But I like being on my own and also eating so I spend little amounts on the older games since half of the time they're better anyway because any game that requires management and office work to get to playing the game should burn in hell for being so evil and stupid
Used games sell sequels, since not everyone will risk full price on a fresh game that few know about when they can spend it on the latest Final Fantasy game that they've been jerking each other off for for a number of years.
At least used games let those who aren't able to afford the big bucked new franchise games be gamers, and then the money they use to buy it goes into keeping game stores afloat to actually receive more new shiny copies for the impatient people to spend lots of money on. Plus, at least they spend MONEY on the games, rather than download and burn it to a disc or whatever, at least they do it legally. People outside of the Gaming Culture and those in it who are in it for solely the money and have no shred of self respect are fucking it up and pissing off those who spend their extra money that they saved by buying it used on more merchandise to fill up their nerd rooms or the top of their television
You only have to give it up if you haven't legally made a backup, or opt to uninstall your game from your PC/console.Sev72 said:
Oh, and the automotive example is heavily flawed. It isn't at all uncommon for cars/trucks to be sold at an initial lost (this is true for almost every 'supercar' make). Second hand sales are fantastic for the industry, because it extends the life of the car and therefore the profit margins, through sales of parts, services and so on. If I'm not much mistaken, videogame consoles operate on a very similar principle, in that they are often sold at a loss and revenue is made up via accessories and games.
At any rate, even if it is individually more moral to pay your hard earned cash for a game, the corporations that are making a mint off the second hand game sales, without refunding any of that revenue to the developers or publishers, are no better....worse even, than these horrendous pirates who are affecting those who aren't necessarily willing to pay hard earned cash for their games.
Of course somebody initial paid for a copy, I can't imagine there being any issue if these pirates are creating video games from scratch and distributing them for free, the whole issue with it is that it's somebody else's work. The only real difference between piracy and second hand sales is that alleged numbers (I say alleged because I have no faith in the numbers publisher claim are pirated, or even in the case that they are accurate, that a significant portion of these "pirates" and legitimate customers who just want to play without a CD or DRM). Hell, even if you sell a game secondhand, you're still more than capable than having it installed on your PC/console and using a crack or backup disc to play.Double A said:
And I suppose you'll next be telling me that the Prius is an environmentally friendly alternative to petrol or diesel cars. Look, if you want to live in you're fuzzy dream world where morality dictates practicality, by all means do so, but understand we can't all be that naive. Both pirated and secondhand games require one original sale, where the developers make a profit, all profits after that go to those distributing the game (the local game store or website via advertisements), the developers and publishers get none of that revenue. I can't see any difference between a gamestore profiting off of the redistribution than off a cracker...actually, I can, in a twisted sense, the cracker is actually more entitled to it, at least they've done some work and are giving a modified version of the product.thisguywithhair said:
If the end user doesn't 'own' the rights to a video game, the third party distributor most certainly doesn't. Those selling second hand games are doing so outside of the implied terms of their selling games in the first place. When you buy a game you do not own it, it is not yours, you merely own the right to use it in within a non commercial, personal environment. If you buy it with the implied terms of distributing it, acting as a middleman, then you have no right to then rebuy and resell the game, no more so than anyone else has to purchase it and distribute it via any other method.
I've never been much for used games, especially as I don't have a current-gen console, and PC gamers really only buy CD keys.
Used games are hurting the industry, but they're in no way "wrong". Saying that buying used things from others is comparable to theft, is just balls-out retarded. It's the same kind of theft that watching a movie with your friend is, or playing your friend a song or two from an album you bought. The kind of theft parents should encourage their kids to do, because if they reach a point where they can't tell the difference, we can kiss humanity goodbye, and emotionlessly welcome a corporate owned Orwellian future, where people are somehow guilted into thinking that every breath they take is a crime.
But I digress..
What I find slightly ironic here, is the fact that publishers are now whining about the second-hand market. And what killed the second-hand market for the PC?
Used games are hurting the industry, but they're in no way "wrong". Saying that buying used things from others is comparable to theft, is just balls-out retarded. It's the same kind of theft that watching a movie with your friend is, or playing your friend a song or two from an album you bought. The kind of theft parents should encourage their kids to do, because if they reach a point where they can't tell the difference, we can kiss humanity goodbye, and emotionlessly welcome a corporate owned Orwellian future, where people are somehow guilted into thinking that every breath they take is a crime.
But I digress..
What I find slightly ironic here, is the fact that publishers are now whining about the second-hand market. And what killed the second-hand market for the PC?
No it can't. A single legit copy can spawn innumarable pirate duplicates-the original itself can only be in one pair of hands at a time. Also, the sale of the game is often what allows the original owner to afford another new title. Gaming companies need to get their heads around the fact that when you sell someone a game, it belongs to them, and unless they're doing something out and out wrong like mass distributing copies by uploading it to a file sharing site, its up to them what they do with it. If a car company started moaning about second-hand sales theyd be told to bugger off-same goes for games.Dys said: