Valve haters, vs Valve fanboys. DRM and Why do some people hate Valve and steam?

[DoPo]

No, it's not - I can add the games to my wishlist and I get an email when they are on sale. Done. Also, there are the seasonal sales that has most of their catalogue at reduced price, so you're almost sure to get a game you want for less.

Okay, that's true. I don't have that many games on my Steam wishlist, only those which I added ages ago.

Still, you can wait a year or more until your game is on sale. By the time, you'll almost certainly be able to buy it elsewhere cheap enough, often cheaper than the Steam sale.

But sure enough that may work for you. Still doesn't work for me though.

I usually buy the cheapest offer I get the soonest - I also use Gamer's Gate, GOG, Desura, Green Man Gaming, GameFly, Humble Bundle, and Indie Gala. I think I'm not missing anything. Anyway - for the rest, I get emails with their offers, for Steam - I get emails with specific offers. I don't use Steam exclusively. And, if you didn't guess already, I prefer digital - physical discs are actually more inconvenient for me, so even if I can get something physical for less price, I doubt the difference would be big enough for me to care - especially not when I get games for £10-£15 at most.

 

[Nicholas Chandler-Yates]

No, it's not - I can add the games to my wishlist and I get an email when they are on sale. Done. Also, there are the seasonal sales that has most of their catalogue at reduced price, so you're almost sure to get a game you want for less.

Okay, that's true. I don't have that many games on my Steam wishlist, only those which I added ages ago.

Still, you can wait a year or more until your game is on sale. By the time, you'll almost certainly be able to buy it elsewhere cheap enough, often cheaper than the Steam sale.

But sure enough that may work for you. Still doesn't work for me though.

I usually buy the cheapest offer I get the soonest - I also use Gamer's Gate, GOG, Desura, Green Man Gaming, GameFly, Humble Bundle, and Indie Gala. I think I'm not missing anything. Anyway - for the rest, I get emails with their offers, for Steam - I get emails with specific offers. I don't use Steam exclusively. And, if you didn't guess already, I prefer digital - physical discs are actually more inconvenient for me, so even if I can get something physical for less price, I doubt the difference would be big enough for me to care - especially not when I get games for £10-£15 at most.

I like to vote with my wallet, for example, I bought Spec Ops:the line AFTER it came off being on sale, because I thought they deserved my money (that game didn't do overly well), I bought Planetary Annihilation in Beta (even though its more expensive) because I never got an opportunity to pay for the original Total Annihilation, which I really enjoyed as a kid (by the time I played it, the company that made it had gone out of business so literally the only way of playing was to copy my friend's disks). Also I wanted to reward them for releasing on Mac OSX in both these cases.
Other games I borrowed from friends, played all the way through, and then bought them afterwards because I had enjoyed them so much, despite having no intention of playing them again later. (ES IV Oblivion, Fallout 3).

 

[O maestre]

intrusive

Define "intrusive".

Look up the definition yourself man.
I personally found my experience with the steam client to be intrusive.

Also I hate the fact that updates are forced on your game

You can disable the auto updates. You know that, right?

Honestly dude do you think I would have made such a huge fuss over it if I didn't know about that function. It is broken for me no matter how many times I enable or disable it never works. I've given up on skyrim because of the updates breaking my mods.

 

[Jacco]

I don't use Steam or any Steam by-products so that is a non-issue for me. I dislike (I won't go so far as to say hate) Valve because they treat their fans like crap and act really arrogant. Half-Life is a particularly sore point for me. If they aren't interested in making HL3 right now, then I wish they would say that instead of letting people constantly pull pranks and start rumors.

Their game development department just acts kind of arrogant and "holier than thou" which I do not appreciate.

 

[Beffudled Sheep_v1legacy]

I don't hate Valve or Steam but I don't love either either.
Half Life is the only Valve series I really enjoy playing and I have lots of problems with Steam.

Offline mode barely works for me. When I try to use it it tells me I can't go into offline mode because I don't have an internet connection.
And it makes me re-sign in every time I lose my connection and try to open it back up after getting it back.
Everytime I shutdown my lappy and restart it it won't open until Steam updates even though I have auto updates on all of my games turned off.
And it loads up pages really slow even on a great connection for me. Trying to navigate pages is a ***** because of how long it takes to get to another page. The only saving grace to me are the sales and the click and forget game modding.

So overall I'm rather neutral in feeling to both Valve and Steam.

 

[DoPo]

intrusive

Define "intrusive".

Look up the definition yourself man.
I personally found my experience with the steam client to be intrusive.

And I didn't, so I want to know what aspects you found intrusive - something an external definition won't tell me.

Offline mode barely works for me. When I try to use it it tells me I can't go into offline mode because I don't have an internet connection.

I'm pretty sure that issue is about two years in the past - it works now, it even automatically starts in offline mode if you don't have internet connection at launch[footnote]something that happened semi-regularly to my flatmate had when his Steam started with the OS but before his computer connected to the wireless[/footnote].

 

[Beffudled Sheep_v1legacy]

intrusive

Define "intrusive".

Look up the definition yourself man.
I personally found my experience with the steam client to be intrusive.

And I didn't, so I want to know what aspects you found intrusive - something an external definition won't tell me.

Offline mode barely works for me. When I try to use it it tells me I can't go into offline mode because I don't have an internet connection.

I'm pretty sure that issue is about two years in the past - it works now, it even automatically starts in offline mode if you don't have internet connection at launch[footnote]something that happened semi-regularly to my flatmate had when his Steam started with the OS but before his computer connected to the wireless[/footnote].

I still have issues with it :/
It isn't as common as it used to be but it still happens enough to annoy me.

 

[Darks63]

intrusive

Define "intrusive".

Look up the definition yourself man.
I personally found my experience with the steam client to be intrusive.

And I didn't, so I want to know what aspects you found intrusive - something an external definition won't tell me.

Offline mode barely works for me. When I try to use it it tells me I can't go into offline mode because I don't have an internet connection.

I'm pretty sure that issue is about two years in the past - it works now, it even automatically starts in offline mode if you don't have internet connection at launch[footnote]something that happened semi-regularly to my flatmate had when his Steam started with the OS but before his computer connected to the wireless[/footnote].

I still was having issues with it as well. It made CK2 unplayable since any major patch would break my save games and force me to start over again.

OT: Another thing I didnt see mention is that they sell some games that dont work/ or take alot of effort to get working on the store ex. Blazing angels 1 only works under Windows xp Ubisoft has never patched it, The first two thief games you need to get fan made compatibliltuy patches.


Another would be that not all store pages have the most information on them making some of them misleading. Such as the weapon add on packs for Space marine it doesnt say anywahere on it that those weapons are multiplayer only leading me to waste mony on buying them.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

snip

One of the main reasons a lot of people levy some dislike against the Valve fanboys is due to the praise being a bit overhyped. Valve fanboys have this assumption that anything Valve does will succeed instantly. History has shown that Valve succeeds over time.

Another reason for Valve fanboy dislike currently is the way that Valve is reported on. The only website I've seen actually critique Steam on anything in a long while is Rock, Paper, Shotgun. They were the first and frankly still only site to my knowledge that pointed out the failings of Steam Greenlight. YouTube personalities have also been critical of it as well, but for the most part Valve gets a general pass for a Greenlight's rules and Valve's constant breaking of them for some games and enforcing it for others.

Now Valve fanboys are going insane over the Steam Machines but few can come to gripes with the fact that its an extremely niche idea. Like NVidia Shield niche.

It's not hate for the company, it's the damn fans.

 

[MrBaskerville]

I dislike Valve because i dislike their games and i kinda blame them for introducing a broking storytelling method that is prevailant in gaming to this day. I can't for the life of me figure out why we are still doing the Half-Life thing where you walk around and stare at talking people it's so inneffective... Aside from that their style just doesn't gel with my taste, i find most of their stuff boring and dry, it feels like stuff assembled by mathematecians imo.

I have no grudge against Steam, i don't use it and prefer other services like GoG, but i recognize that they have done some positive things for the pc community, i just don't really like their creative vision.

 

[themyrmidon]

I am neutral on Valve but hate Steam. After using Steam in 2007 I refused to until 2012 simply because I hated having to use it. If I want to play a single player game why do I have to load up a slow middleman?

My boycott ended when SoaSE: Rebellion came out in beta only on Steam, a game I had pre-ordered. I found Steam to be much more tolerable than before and have since picked up other SteamDRM games that I couldn't play before, as well as some really cheap ones on sale.

I still hate having to use Steam and will avoid it wherever possible. I don't like that I'm forced to use it for single-player game modes. I don't like that I am forced to be subject to the conditions of Steam, whatever they may change to be in the future, forever and ever amen. And I don't like that it monopolizes the digital distribution market. I've bought games on Amazon and GMG, all of them require Steam. At least with Origin and UPlay I know my games are tied to their publisher and not just sitting there to be on a larger marketplace.

Lastly, I don't like how it is being accepted with open arms. So many people are willing to give themselves completely to the benevolent overlord that is Valve that they now prefer a game on Steam to a truly DRM-free game now that it actually frightens me. I really wouldn't mind digital distribution if it meant I could use the game in any manner I want, but with Steam you can't.

It all comes down to games as a service vs games as a product. I want to buy products. That is why I hate Steam.


Captcha: Safe & Efficient Malibu
I've been window shopping cars recently. Damn subliminal advertising.

 

[TomWiley]

Well, the company has a long history of rather anti-consumer and straight up predatory behavior, and they're getting away with having the arguably most restrictive game distribution service out of any company and are somehow still widely seen as humble heroes who saved PC gaming.

They are like the Apple of video games. They are great at what they do and they've made this "alternative, savior" image into a marketing strategy. But like Apple, their image will drastically change when people realize that this software giant is just like any other gaming company.

 

[Something Amyss]

A well-reasoned post, they definitely should not get a free pass. They shouldn't be making draconian EULA policies 'just because everyone else is'. But they should definitely not be singled out for this reason, especially when microsoft etc instigated these policies well before Valve ever did.

But you've just hit on why it gets brought up:

Valve fanboys were hammering Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc for doing this. They were all "PC GAMING MASTER RACE 4 LYF!"

And Steam did the same thing.

And there was silence.

Then there was justification. This thing that was bad when stupid filthy console peasants had to endure it was now okay for wise, sexy members of the PC elite to deal with.

Honestly, the people who brought it up here didn't say that consoles didn't do it. And honestly, that's a red herring. One of the folks even pointed out he didn't know what the console EULAs said. And it doesn't matter, because what they do or don't do doesn't make it right.

As for other issues with Valve, they exist, but I am tired and in pain and really just wanted to point this out.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's not hate for the company, it's the damn fans.

It's also the fact that all one needs to do to be a "hater" is to not love something in gaming unconditionally. Or to be mildly critical.

 

[RandV80]

As a rule of thumb, I generally despise DRM because it often complicates a process that should be so simple. On the other hand, Steam won me over: I just need to be logged in and I can run my games from a list, or redownload them easily if I need to. Steam makes DRM seamless to me in the same way I use my username and password to access my email account. It just works.

What I absolutely hate on Steam though are games with additional DRM on top of steam that you need to register on a website and so on. I find this absolutely unacceptable.

Yeah as a Steam supporter I see this is one of the two biggest legit complaints, the other being when someone buys a game physically at retail yet are forced to use Steam.

Both problems have the same source, Valve obviously has a 'laissez-faire' policy when it comes to how other developers and publishers sell their games & content on Steam. Could they implement a policy where if you want to place a game on Steam then Steam can be the only DRM? Would it be wise for them to eve try? I don't know the answer to that, though would certainly appreciate it. Only time I've ever had buyers remorse and a problem with Steam was when the ugly Games for Windows Live popped up unexpectedly. Bought Arkham Asylum last year on a sale and was amped to finally play it, but the extra DRM ran out of CD keys and couldn't be played for a week or two.

Then as a solution the the second problem, I wonder if Valve would be able to, or if it would be even worthwhile, to create a 'Steam-lite', that only works as a DRM validator for retail games that require Steam. That should go a long way to clearing up problems people have with Steam.

But seriously though **** you Windows Live and good riddance, you will not be missed. Whenever it popped up it always left me with the distinct impression that the Xbox was invading my PC. Bad enough that Windows through PC gamers under the bus to launch their console, now that it's become popular and successful to the living room crowd I really didn't appreciate them now trying to force parts of their console back into the PC.

 

[Altorin]

well, I'm not a "valve fanboy" but I've *almost* never had any problems with Steam.

the only times I ever have troubles with it are when I've been logged out of it for whatever reason and that's only because I can never remember my username and password for it.

In my experience Steam only becomes an issue when you treat it like one. If you abhor keeping things open on your pc and steam is one of the things you close, then you'll occasionally hit hiccups with it, but if you don't, and you just accept it, it's really quite painless. I'd venture entirely painless.

So it's DRM, but without smacking you in the face with it. It's barely DRM at all. And Valve has always been consumer friendly so I really don't mind if they want to install a sandbox to run all my legit games through. They don't care what else I have installed on my computer (as long as it's not used to cheat in games played in the sandbox). Steam has become a fixture on my computer that I really don't pay any attention to unless I have a few bucks and am curious what I can immediately purchase.

Apart from that, my only issue with Steam is that some games just aren't on it anymore. The original Magic the Gathering Planeswalker game for instance. I'd like to pick up a copy of it for my friend so that I can actually make use of the copy I have, but you just can't buy it, so getting us both in to play MtG will cost about 4x as much. Bum deal, but I doubt that's really valve's fault, I blame Wizards of the Coast for that.

edit: I know that reads like a valve fanboy, but I'm not. I don't care for the games they've produced and in the beginning when Steam was just a gateway for their own games, I hated it - having to use steam to connect to multiplayer halflife games back in the day felt like garbage. Now adays I don't care.. everything's in steam so whatevs.

 

[Frankster]

Stealing the part of lacks list that applies to me.

2. Irrelevance (Console gamers couldn't give less of a rip about Steam, so the constant Steam praise is annoying)

6. They don't like the rabidness of many Valve fanboys, and dislike the company by proxy

Now I wouldn't consider myself a hater per say, more like neutral or just "meh" towards them. But whenever some folk comes up at me praising valve to the high heavens and expects me to chime along, I tend to play the role of guy who goes "nope" and pretty much appear a hater as I explain why for me valve isn't really the gaming messiah.

Heck on these forums just last month I found myself defending ubisoft of all companies as some valve peeps were circlejerking over how much better valve is as a company and everyone should be like them.
I called BS on that since valve never made a game I liked whereas ubisoft have,so the idea of a gaming world full of valves only is pretty much my nightmare and in my book ubisoft>valve when it comes to games. Needless to say conversation swiftly ended.
But I got nothing against valve and their games, they just ain't for me, like how a dev that specializes in racing games or flight sims wouldn't be for me and I'd have nothing against those fans, but would be annoyed when those fans start shoving their tastes into other peoples faces and expecting just a chorus of agreement.

So to sum up:

1) "Irrelevance." I use steam but don't enjoy valve games for the most part. Steam is a cool service, I like it. But that just puts them on the same level as other services i use whilst gaming, ranging from tuungle to help me fix my connection woes, to software for chatting to peeps in games and distribution sites like gog.
So yeah steams all cool and all, but by itself isn't enough to win my unrestrained love.

2)"They don't like the rabidness of many Valve fanboys, and dislike the company by proxy"
I gave a brief example above. But come to think of it I remember running into some really obnoxious fans during previous march madness who had an obsession with half life I just couldn't understand. Ultimately when people act like dicks for games I don't care for it doesn't endear the company itself to me even if I know valve isn't responsible for their fans behavior any more then paradox would be whenever I act like a knob.

 

[Vigormortis]

While I wouldn't go as far as saying I hate them, there are a number of things that annoy me about them. The first thing is that age old joke that they can't count to three. Way back in 2006 they said that the Half Life 2 episodes would be "a trilogy that will conclude by Christmas 2007". Well it's six years later and it still hasn't happened.

Except that they made it clear, years ago, that they had dropped the episodic model of content release had instead were going to make a full fledged sequel.

Why anyone still brings up Episode 3 baffles me.

Then there is Steam itself. Regular prices aren't that competitive, it's usually either the same or cheaper here to get physical copies.

While this is true with some countries, it's usually not Steams fault.

Publishers dictate what prices their digital titles are sold at. Couple that with some governments charging taxes on certain media content and some prices become inflated.

It's really stupid either way.

Then there's also the really dodgy downloads. Usual downloads for me on most sites I get around 100-150KB/s. On Steam though it's 0-100KB/s with the occasional spike to 150. It barely supports slow connections as well. My old connection was going at ~10KB/s. I couldn't install any games from Steam, I couldn't download any updates(or those that would work would only do about half) and I couldn't buy anything from their store.

I've never had issue with Steam on slower connections. Never. At least, not since the service began back in 2004.

Have you tried changing your download settings in Steam? Tried changing your download region?

The last thing that annoys me, which I find to be a really big deal, is the fact that they get all this praise for what is ultimately a small time developers work. There are only two of their IPs that aren't like that, namely Half-Life and Ricochet. The rest have been a result of them taking a small studio/team and giving them a heap of resources to make what they already have even better. Outside of those games there is Team Fortress, Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, Portal, Left 4 Dead, Alien Swarm and Dota.

Team Fortress started out as a mod for Quake, the team behind it then started work on a stand-alone version. Then Valve offers them a job to firstly port the mod to Source(Team Fortress Classic) and make their stand-alone with Source(Team Fortress 2). Counter-Strike started out as a Half-Life mod, then as it started to gather a bit of momentum Valve stepped in and gave the then developers a bunch of resources. Day of Defeat also started off as a Half-Life mod and the developers, again, joined up with Valve to make a stand-alone happen. Then there's Portal, which is the most interesting story of the lot. This one is a spiritual successor to a student project called Narbacular Drop, after which it's team got hired by Valve to create what is now known as Portal. Left 4 Dead started off at Turtle Rock Studios and was pretty close to completion when Valve hired them and threw together a $10 million marketing campaign. Alien Swarm started off as a mod for Unreal Tournament 2004. After it's success the team set out to remake it on the Source engine after which Valve hired the team. Last but not least is Dota, this one started off as a very popular map for Warcraft 3. IceFrog, the creator of the original DotA, was then hired by Valve to make a sequel.

Valve doesn't hire those people with the intent on having those people just make a "more polished version" of their mod. Valve hires them because of the talent they displayed in making those mods. The fact that those people then ended up turning their pet projects into polished releases was because they wanted to, not because they were told to.

You need to understand the design philosophy at work at Valve. Nobody hands down projects and work orders from on high. Everyone is free to work on whatever they like. This is usually what happens when new hires, like say those behind Team Fortress, are brought into the company. Some of those hires decide to work on bettering their original project. Others already employed at Valve may then decide to chip in.

Sure, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. They take small time developers with great concepts and help them gain the success they deserve. But if they are just throwing resources behind these things, why not just act as a publisher? Instead they hire them so they can ultimately take all the credit for them and the success that comes with it.

I've heard this claim before and it still makes no sense to me.

These people are a part of Valve. The final products they release are made with Valve resources and with fellow Valve employees. When you mention "Valve", you are talking about those people. So how is the final game not a Valve product?

Those "small dev teams" aren't some separate entity within Valve. They aren't some side group that makes something for management. They are Valve. Valve is them. Differentiating them beyond recognizing them as separate people is a misunderstanding of how Valve is structured.

Besides, the key designers behind those mods often retain their previous level of recognition. Some gaining even more. Just look at Robin Walker and how much he is viewed as the key driving force behind Team Fortress 2. The game is often viewed as his passion project, not just Valves.

So...yeah. I still don't get how anyone can take issue with any of this. Especially when it's common practice in the industry to look to outside sources for game ideas.