Valve vs. Zynga

[Corpse XxX]

Hooray.. This made me happy.. Dont think Zynga had anything in this competition to do anyways..

They should not be allowed to compete next year in my opinion..

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

snip

Try Forum Games. They're a good way to start getting to know people.

I'm worried that we sort of metaphorically "sold our soul" to beat Zynga.
Advertising on the launcher, getting help from /b/.
I'd have rather lost than sink that low.

Oh, thank you for the advice! I sure do appreciate it.

Nothing wrong with advertising, I mean it wasn't just Zynga or Valve that did it. Bioware and Blizzard both did it as well, in fact. Though whoever posted the competition on /b/, was out of their mind. The porn and the gore that they posted were not worth whatever votes may have been yielded from such an act, for both sides. Imagine if a mother or a child saw those pictures? Definitely was not worth going to 4chan for votes.

Definitely not worth going there for votes.

I would also like to know who posted the "VOTE" event in the 4chan Steam group, and why they thought that was a good idea.

What you have to remember is that 4chan isn't just /b/. If you go to any other of the boards there you'd see there actually are discussions there. Sure, on /v/ the word 'fag' is thrown around a little too much but most threads there are generally no worse than here. As a result, many on /v/ genuinely care about games and I'm sure the majority voted Valve.

/b/ on the other hand...

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

By attracting an entirely different audience, Zynga has carved itself a very large niche which it is easily able to capitalise on with microtransactions for game currency. They've been so successful that their [a hrev=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/99426-Zynga-Introduces-Retail-Game-Cards-For-FarmVille]in-game currencies are now being sold at retail[/a]. Did the early browser games ever have that kind of reach or success?

Ogame and similar games had exactly the same target as Zynga games. Bored white collars, housewifes, people that could let the game run itself for a while and go back to it. Had *exactly* the same mechanics (where do you think zynga copied from?) and the same pace. They were equally easy.
And yes, their goods got sold on ebay and similar venues as well.

They never replaced core games, and they never will.
The rest is all sensationalistic doomsayer dribble written for controversy's sake.

I hope you are right cause I see the example of television and see how reality shows, talk shows (The television version of pink magazines) and series with empty plots squeezed for seasons and seasons without getting anywhere replaced the good old entertainment you could find on TV till the 90's.

As for casual games you forget thats where games started, casual games that could be played by all family. They have always been there, the gaming industry just evolved to come up with harder titles with deeper plots. But none will ever replace eachother. Some people play just one type, some people play both as they are more then aiming diferent demographics they are actually aiming diferent finalities.

I play both types, and I find casual games more relaxing if I am stressed. A 20-men raid on a MMO with people shouting on ventrilo or teamspeak sounds too much similar to work in a dreadful busy day, or wondering around in any kind of action game trying to find the key to open the door, or even the freaking door and wondering for hours, or trying to defeat a boss and be killed and reload game for 100 time is not exactly my personal idea of fun after a 12 hour shift working. Now if I am off, and from all things I planned to do I still got spare a good amount of hours left in that case baby, casual games become boring as I still need some challenge (and work is not there that day to give it) so I will rather pick a hardcore game and try to solve, If I am inspired I can even have a go on that so much hated title I abandoned for months and have another go on the level I couldnt just figure out, or give another try at that almost impossible boss (usually its when I succeed).

So its all down to personal taste and mood.

 

[Actsub]

Spoiler: Some disgusting analogies and some unpopular opinions, do not click if you are weak stomached/wrong/don't want to read something relatively long and full of hate

As I have said many times in other places: Zynga is an ass pimple on gaming: Unpleasant, but harmless and ignorable. Valve on the other hand is a cancer. They are a part of gaming that has become corrupt and is killing it from within. Valve has bad ideas and is popular. Valve represents digital distribution, (Steam) and as we all know digital distribution is the enemy. (Think of a sadder image than desperate workers barely able to feed themselves and their family on their wages working at the one job that hasn't been taken over by robots: The robot factory. One day a type of robot building robot is invented, and all the humans need to give up the only job they could find; manufacturing their replacements. Every time we de-humanize retail we get a step closer to that.), that annoying method of co-op where they gimp everyone rendering them worthless on their own, power-armored non-characters using generic weapons to fight one-dimensionally evil alien invaders, and that obnoxious, immersion-breaking storytelling method where instead of putting some effort into some nice cutscenes or something, characters give poorly written exposition occasionally peppered with "Gordon Freeman" in case you forgot the name of disembodied hands with gun #342. It saddens me that our hatred of casual gaming caused people to side with cancer.

Luddites: In the 21st Century! Kill the machine!

 

[TechNoFear]

Now that is something I didn't hear, at least with a large number of bans. I can see now why there were people who weren't banned, yet normally they would have been. I guess the mods were taking it easy this time around.

The mods did not ban people without reason last year. many posters complained they were banned without reason, becasue they could not understand that repeatedly calling someone a 'cheat' (for an invalid reason) was insulting and ban worthy.

Some Escapists decided Turbine's ad in the launcher in the laster rounds was 'cheating' and these members took it out on the Turbine fans. Even after being repeatedly told that Turbine's ad was OK these members still kept posting it was cheating and got banned.

To get an idea of what it was like;

Divide the amount of posters/posts by ~10 (much smaller MM last year),
Change 'Zynga' for 'Turbine',
Change 'flash games' to 'crappy MMOs'
Change 'Facebook spam' to 'launcher ad'

And most importantly, Zynga wins MM and you have what happened last year.
Make sure that the Turbine fans know your opionon by bringing it up all the time ie

I agree. I've been dreading Turbine's little shindigs for a while now, but this one was interesting. It also helps when the good guys win for once.

This post is a perfect example.
It both implies Turbine did something wrong (according to the mods Turbine did not. Valve used a MUCH bigger ad full colour ad, not some text link, yet will not suffer the same backlash) and that Turbine is the 'bad' guy (I can only assume because this poster's choice was beaten by Turbine).]

 

[bladeofdarkness]

thats a pretty overtly epic description of what happened
makes me proud to have played a small part in it

 

[Actsub]

What you have to remember is that 4chan isn't just /b/. If you go to any other of the boards there you'd see there actually are discussions there. Sure, on /v/ the word 'fag' is thrown around a little too much but most threads there are generally no worse than here. As a result, many on /v/ genuinely care about games and I'm sure the majority voted Valve.

/b/ on the other hand...

Don't even try telling them, man. As far as people who've never been to 4chan can tell, it's 100% /b/, gore and rape pictures. 'Ignorance is bliss' as they say.

 

[Georgie_Leech]

Yes it was an epic battle, but I still think it was a battle that wasn't supposed to happen. Zynga makes fun time wasters, not games. To be a game (of any kind, not just video) means that the skill of the player has some effect on how the game runs. There is no skill in the Zynga apps.

Also, for shame on them for continuing the "casual vs hardcore" falacy.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

For starters [HEADING=2]Zynga don't make casual games.[/HEADING] Zynga makes social games and these are completely different to casual games. You should stop putting Zynga in the same vein as Popcap and others as there games are worlds apart. Like calling Square a FPS dev.

Also in the article I see no mention of the ABZ group here on the Escapist that actually went out of our way to go to many different to try get support for Valve. It was our pestering that got the Steam out to people. Yes while although March Mayhem reallys means nothing it actually meant something to us so they wouldn't win.

I really have to heavily disagree with the article that it was casual gamers vs hardcore as once again Zynga don't make casual games they make social games. It was gamers vs FB people brought in by spam some good people some bad people who knew nothing of the competition doesn't exactly roll off the tongue like casual gamers but that's what it was. Also on that to add to it they aren't even games as such they are more flash apps. If they wanted to put in flash devs then why a decent one like miniclip or armor games?

 

[Lord Krunk]

I agree. I've been dreading Turbine's little shindigs for a while now, but this one was interesting. It also helps when the good guys win for once.

This post is a perfect example.
It both implies Turbine did something wrong (according to the mods Turbine did not. Valve used a MUCH bigger ad full colour ad, not some text link, yet will not suffer the same backlash) and that Turbine is the 'bad' guy (I can only assume because this poster's choice was beaten by Turbine).]

I'm not going into this. What I could say is what I've said time and time again, and I've grown bored of it. I've also grown bored of March Mayhem. Let me ask you this though; has any good come out of it? Time after time people pour in and make every forum a living hell for a month or two. What's intended to be a fun game instead becomes a massive circle-jerk for some morons that don't even care.

I don't care about the launcher ads. Valve was at least creative and informative though, asked as a polite request than desperate spam.

What element do we get from that spam? That element that falls for it. One-word posters, mindless drones for a seedy collective. I see them, I see them overrunning everything, overruling everything, derailing, trashing and destroying with no regard for those with good intentions. These people aren't doing it for fun, these people are just jerks. Jerks who this site is better off without.

But when you ask a question, politely request rather than shove down one's throat, people feel a loyalty and that loyalty is shown on these forums. These aren't one-word posters, these are people that actually care. These are people that know that respect is a two-way street, and thus treat it as such.

And so, when I get people like yourself begging me to respect you, pointing out my post as if something to be ridiculed, I decline.

Respect is earned. Valve's method was polite and honest, they didn't take it like the be all and end all of things, just as a bit of harmless fun. Yet still people want to take the competition seriously, like their favourite developer's victory and loss is the difference between life and death. They earned their respect, and in earning it they became victorious. Surely you have heard of how it wasn't just the launcher, but the entire community that spread the word. Loyalty, respect.

So don't tell me to respect that demographic, because I can't. I see them as a blight, not a community.

 

[KittywifaMohawk]

I'm ready to bet that most of them voted for Zynga.

I'm sorry, but that isn't likely.

Trust me, as unorganized as /b/ is, if they wanted Zynga to win, the poll would've damn near broke.

I'm going to have to agree with him on this.
If /b/ wanted Zynga to win, it would have happened.


Hopefully we don't have to resort to using /b/ again, it was a dangerous move on our part.

 

[USSR]

snip

Despite their unorganization, they <link=http://news.cnet.com/thewebservicesreport/?tag=rb_content;overviewHead>crashed Twitter for god's sake!

 

[Trivun]

interesting read.

It was a great fight

should have mentioned the inclusion /b/.

that really gave us a problem for a while.

Heh, technically that means that we triumphed over /b/ too. Which is always a good thing .

Personally, I feel proud to have been a part of this monumental occasion. I joined the ABZ group late, but after joining became a strong voice (I like to think) against Zynga, and I would like to think I played a major part. But there were others still who played a much greater role than me and I'm glad to see that their efforts are being recognised and welcomed by the wider gaming community, beyond the Escapist .

 

[Marsell]

Something going up against Valve?
those poor bastards.

 

[hyker]

you sound like a zynga spy...

 

[Nimbus]

I really couldn't care less who won. Even if Zynga won, I still wouldn't have been bothered. I admit that I voted in the Valve V Zynga round, but that was only at another insistence.

Frankly, people need to understand that MM is a simple popularity contest, that's all. It's pointless! Everyone knows from the start that Zynga is more popular than Valve, they have more users. Obviously, not enough of them voted though. But that means nothing, who has more users, absolutely nothing at all. Valve would still have continued making quality games if they had lost, and Zynga aren't going to stop making their games just because of this.

In my opinion, people need to stop taking it so seriously. The article misses the point entirely. It's a silly competition, not the battle of Issus.

C'mon man, you're the one taking it too seriously! Most things in life are pointless, but who gives a fuck as long as it's fun? I think it's fair to say people had a good time joining together, posting in the thread, pooling their votes, and feeling like they were a part of something bigger than they were, y'know?

 

[Zombie_Fish]

That blog article is so bias against Zynga that I wouldn't really view it as too great a source of information about this event. Such as when Zynga begs visiters of other sites for votes it's called 'spam', whilst when the hardcore gamers and Valve fans do it it's called 'an unwritten truce that rallied everyone under Valve's flag'. They also seemed to have forgotten that the hardcore gamers actually made the thread worse by trying to bring 4Chan onto their side, resulting in a /b/raid of that thread. But hey, at least it was worth it for the extra votes, right?

Oh yeah, banned users have their votes disqualified. And since pretty much everyone on 4Chan who made users were banned from that, it really wasn't very effective.

I also found this reasoning of 'fighting fire with fire' a bit stupid to be honest. The phrase 'pot calling the kettle black' comes to mind when looking at how they frown upon what they did themselves to combat it. It's also ironic, considering that, as I've already said in another thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.185088-Poll-The-Escapists-MM-A-case-study#5584730], The Escapist has done it before as well for competitions for 'Best Online Magazine' and 'Best Gaming-related Magazine'.

Should Zynga have won? I personally think so. As [user]Furburt[/user] has already said, March Mayhem is a popularity contest -- not a competition for 'Best Developer' -- and Zynga is by far the more popular developer, despite the fact that Valve is the better developer by miles. I voted for Valve like the other 25000 users out of personal preference because that's how you measure how popular a developer is; you seek the personal opinion of the masses. But this is missing an important assumption.

That assumption is that Zynga deserved to be going up against developers such as Infinity Ward, Rockstar, Square Enix, Valve and potentially Turbine and Bioware. We're assuming that a developer of lighthearted, social games which you can simply log on and play at the office that also had a reputation of scamming people and supposedly stealing game designes deserved to be going up against the aforementioned developers. By that logic, developers like Kongregate should be allowed in for the game Kongai, and so could the developer of the MMOs Evony and World of Lordcraft, were they to reveal themselves amongst other developers. I'm sure that the staff have a reason for allowing Zynga and not others, but I'm not seeing one.

I also agree that the article exaggerates how serious this tournament is. Would I be insulted if Zynga won? A bit, perhaps, but not much to truly offend me. It doesn't make them the better developer and my personal opinion stays the same, it just means that my opinion is less popular than the opinion that Zynga is the better developer. Does that really do that much harm or insult to injury?

 

[Abriael]

I'm sure that the staff have a reason for allowing Zynga and not others, but I'm not seeing one.

I do, It's controversy. Controversy brings attention, attention brings popularity and, ultimately, money.
By artificially creating a villain (no need to include others really, you don't need more than one villain), they gained much more attention for their contest. From a marketing point of view, it was a pretty flawless move.

Oh yeah, the blog post is romancized, overdramatized and exaggerated. I actually thought that the fact that such overdramatization was openly intentional was quite evident.

I'll let The Escapist cover it with professional journalistic coolness, if they feel so inclined. As for me, I prefer Epic It's more fun.

Also, I definitely disagree with the idea that Zynga should have won because they're "by far the most popular developer".

They're not. They're pretty much unknown by the people and by the media outside of Facebook.
Popularity, moreover, is not just a measure of how many people know about something, but also how much they like that something.
A poll with facebook connect enabled that allowed Zynga to spam links that placed voting a mere couple clicks away (while fans of other developers had to go through the trouble of creating an account) isn't necessarily a good measure of Zynga's actual popularity compared with their competition. They clearly had less barriers between their players and voting than anyone else.

Zynga may have N^2 million users. Does that make them "popular" compared to other developers that have less users? Not necessarily.
A big part of those N^2 million users try the game for 5 minutes and then leave it there to rot (but since they don't have to pay anything, they're still counted, that's the nature of free games), another big part plays them (occasionally or not) but couldn't care the less about Zynga as the entity that makes their games. That's how ultra-casual players they are. It's a miracle if they know Zynga's name, let alone caring about them. If they were to close, they'd probably just move to the next casual social game without a second thought.

On the other hand, most hardcore gamers normally know and love their developers. They might be fewer, but this definitely makes such developers more "popular" than Zynga.

 

[Zombie_Fish]

I do, It's controversy. Controversy brings attention, attention brings popularity and, ultimately, money.
By artificially creating a villain (no need to include others really, you don't need more than a villain), they gained much more attention for their contest. From a marketing point of view, it was a pretty flawless move.

The thing is, March Mayhem already had a villian and it went under the name of Turbine, the MMO developer who had won two years running due to its advertising technique. The only reason they lost this time was that they left it up to the user base to advertise for them. We didn't need another villain to battle, especially one which generated enough controversy to make the Valve vs. Zynga thread unreadable due to the traffic garnered in the later part of the round.

Even then, I doubt that the staff of The Escapist would've predicted Zynga to get as far as they did, whilst Turbine (the developer with a reputation for advertising this contest) only made it to the second round, thanks to advertising. Zynga going out in the first round would've made the villain plan redundant, which they would've done if Facebook users didn't get involved and this tournament was left up to the gamers who visited The Escapist and knew about this tournament. For the villan plan to gather attention and ad revenue to work, the staff would've had to predict that Zynga would call upon Facebook users to vote for them.

If you think that's the case then fair enough, it's just something which I doubt they could've foreseen any more than we could've, otherwise they could've foreseen the massive increase in traffic which almost lost the site on some ISPs [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/chat/Tech-Team?c_page=2]:

@LeonLethality:
@The_root_of_all_evil: Zynga - the facebook game company responsible for Farmville (and many others) posted a message to all their users to come vote for them. The site has been being hammered all morning.

If you're getting a blank page, it's likely that you got sent to a web server that is not very happy. Normally they remove themselves from rotation when they get overburdened, but that isn't working so well then they all are.

EDIT:

On the other hand, most hardcore gamers normally know and love their developers. They might be fewer, but this definitely makes such developers more "popular" than Zynga.

I don't see how Zynga are the exception to this rule. As the threads they were competing in showed, Zynga do have their dedicated users as well as the casual gamer audiences. These users did seem to know and love Zynga like those of the hardcore gamer audience like their developers, and the votes do show that these users were in larger amounts than those of the rival developers.

It doesn't matter if they can simply log in with Facebook as that would require them to still care enough about the developer to sign up and vote. This is a bane for all developers, not just Zynga. Besides, judging by how many people use Facebook, this shouldn't provide much advantage for Zynga alone.

If someone buys a videogame and doesn't like it then they sell it back to the store. This still counts as a sale by the company as someone demanding a refund is the shop's business and not that of the developer's. In Facebook applications such as Farmville, you can remove or block the app, which means that there is one less user, which does count as losing what would be a sale in the company's eyes. This is a bane of both harcore and casual gamers and from the looks of that, developers like Zynga would, in theory, be at a disadvantage in measuring popularity because of it.