Vanguard Princess - Fan Service is it necessary?

[Something Amyss]

This video proves a point, sex sells.

How? I see the sex, but I see nothing establishing that it sells or that it would otherwise have not sold without the sex. Or that it sold. Or that it sold outside a niche market. Hell, the video has less than 200 views and only one like at the time I'm writing this. All it proves is that sex exists.

Can you prove definitively that games sell better specifically because of sex?

Can you demonstrate a net gain from the extreme levels they went to in this game?

Can you then turn this into a general rule? Would football games sell better if everyone was a busty anime girl in their panties? Would Uncharted sell as well if it was Natalie Drake, buxom thong-clad woman?


Or are you working backwards from a conclusion and trying to justify it?

Fan-service is very much necessary in a fan-service fighter, just like horror-elements are very much necessary in a dark fantasy RPG. That doesn't make it a good fighting game, having never played it I can't tell you if it is.

It also doesn't prove the axiom "sex sells," which would be the issue at hand.

Well, I enjoy fighting games and that video has definitely ensured that I won't be buying this game. I'm sure there are plenty of others who'd feel the same way.

I'm put off by it, but I might be persuaded to buy a game like this if the rest of the game was quality. I find fanservice generally off-putting, though, and this cranks it to the point it'd have to be reeeeeeeally good to compensate. Which leads to the bigger problem: looking at gameplay, it doesn't look that good. I'm not a huge fighter, but I'm used to fluidity and this doesn't look fluid. I can't see the controls, but the videos make it look like players have trouble inputting them. And what I could find for reviews largely revolved around "huhuhuh...boobies."

Maybe it has some other merits, but that's as far as I cared to look.

I think within a certain scope, it becomes "necessary." I doubt this game is bringing in money for its story, controls, array of features, etc. But then, that steers back around to the concept that a fanservice game needs fanservice. That's a given.

It's the reason I kinda like Baynonetta. Say what you will about it, at least it isn't pretending to be anything else.

Unless you buy the "Bayonetta is satire" theory.

But here's the thing, do you think it would sell as well( or better) without it? I don't think so, sure it's easy for people to say " if it wasn't so fanservice-y , i would buy it" but honestly, i don't believe it. I think most people who critise the game for having fanservice, wouldn't buy it even if it wasn't. Because honestly, all that is fluff, the real meat is the gameplay and mechanics. And if those are solid, the rest shouldn't matter in my opinion.

As for the question if i would buy a game with an all girl cast that wasn't fan service, i point you to skullgirls.

I don't believe it'd sell better in this case, because in this case there's nothing but fanservice.

But to argue that the fluff wouldn't matter is to be rather oblivious to the gaming community as a whole. And it works both ways, as people threatened to Boycott over the "flat-chested" Lara Croft from the TR reboot. Because C Cups are totally flat chested and reasonable proportions mean no sale.

 

[ChristopherT]

I'm one of those people that does something stupid every now and then. For instance this game was on sale a few months ago on Amazon, and me, for whatever reason being tired of hearing about Skull Girls bought this game, just so I could have the silly self satisfaction of buying an all female fighting game that was specifically not Skull Girls. That being said, I regret nothing. Vanguard Princess's characters feel lighter to me, both in terms of character movement in game and character design. Yes it's a game with the fan service cranked up, but at the end of the day I feel they're at least a little more honest about it than Skull Girls. - Note for those who care more about what the game offers, Story Mode, Vs Mode, and you can turn on visible hit boxes.

As for Fan Service in general, eh. I like it, but it's not for everyone, and I don't want it in most things. In High school of the Dead I enjoyed it, from the start, here's jigglies, here's panty shots, here's zombies, you know what you're in for, go. Watch the first episode, if you don't like it stop, because the rest of the series is the same thing, only more so.

Meanwhile sex scene in the remake of Dawn of the Dead, why? Why's it there, sex is not part of the story, not much of any lead up to it, it's there strictly to have a scene with tits. That's where I generally start groaning. Every now and then something pops up with a sex scene, or a shower scene, and sometimes there's something of a build up to it, and then I usually can just enjoy the scene for what it is, or discard it, but then sometimes it's just - here's tits. I think that's where it is for me, let me know what I'm getting into, and if you're going to have a brief moment of fan service added in half way through try making it relevant.

 

[Piorn]

Honestly, I'm just sick of oversexualized stuff like Heavy Plate armor with a gigantic cleavage hole right in the middle.
And buying games for the sexappeal never works anyways. You can't masturbate to it because you need to focus, but can't play it in public, either. The only thing to gain is to experience the characters, so you could watch r34 of them later and actually have the necessary backstory, but that doesn't require sex ingame either.

Maybe I'm getting cynical, but I don't need sex on everything. A little innuendo goes with everything, sure, but most of the time, I just want to experience a story.

 

[Hagi]

It also doesn't prove the axiom "sex sells," which would be the issue at hand.

My point wasn't that sex sells. My point was that it doesn't matter if it sells.

The game shown has fan-service as it's core, that's what the game is about in part. It needs fan-service because that's what makes it what it is. It isn't a game with fan-service randomly thrown in for extra sales. It's a game about fan-service, that's the entire point of it.

Removing the fan-service from this game would be like removing the cooling-element from a fridge, you can definitely do it but it wouldn't be a fridge any longer. It'd just be a wacky cupboard.

The axiom "sex sells" is used in regards to something that isn't about sex where it's still thrown in out of the mistaken belief that it'll increase sales, you'll find the video I included in my post to reflect my thoughts on that subject.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't apply to this game. The sex isn't being included to sell more copies, it's what the game is about, it wouldn't be the game it is without the inclusion of the fan-service.

 

[Eamar]

Eamar - You proved a point that there is an audience out there that would not appreciate such a thing within their genre. However were you really the targeted audience to begin with?

Oh almost certainly not, and I'm not complaining about that. I imagine their target demographic was young, male anime fans, and I only fit the "young" part of that. Then again, I am a fighting game fan and I am sexually attracted to women, so maybe an argument could be made there...

Because honestly, all that is fluff, the real meat is the gameplay and mechanics. And if those are solid, the rest shouldn't matter in my opinion.

I disagree. No matter how good the game was, I wouldn't buy something with fanservice (objectification, sexism etc etc) on that level. I have no problem with sexy characters or a degree of objectification, but I draw the line at endless schoolgirl upskirt shots. While you're absolutely entitled to your opinion (and please don't think I'm judging you for it or anything), I really do think that level of fanservice would make a lot of potential customers uncomfortable. Frankly, I think I'd feel pretty embarrassed if someone walked in and saw me playing that.

The guy would probably need something in order to attract people to his game and what better way to attract otaku and NEET than TnA if the gameplay is basic at best.

I think within a certain scope, it becomes "necessary." I doubt this game is bringing in money for its story, controls, array of features, etc. But then, that steers back around to the concept that a fanservice game needs fanservice. That's a given.

^^ What these guys said.

 

[shoddyworksucks]

Vanguard Princess looks for all the world to be a niche title for a niche audience, an audience that more than likely wants that kind of content in their all-female fighting games. So, to reiterate what many have already said here, it is necessary for this particular game. It's aims aren't to appeal to a larger, more diverse audience; I'm sure the developers of this game are happy with the audience that they have for it.

That being said, the idea that cheesecake sexuality is needed for all games, or that it's existence is detrimental to the growth and popularity of games, is neither here nor there. To quote someone I can't remember the name of: "Shame the medium, not the game". Vanguard Princess's use of fan service doesn't seem egregious enough to be a product of any kind of mean-spirited or misogynist sentiment, but rather a product of iteration within the medium and within the particular gaming sub-culture the game is trying to appeal to. While that particular marketing hook can, and often does, feel lazy, it still fulfills it's purpose of drawing in a very particular audience. I think that most people understand that this kind of ribald sexuality can appeal to both men and women, heterosexual individuals and homosexual individuals, etc. Most people enjoy some titillation now and again; within anime, it's easy to point out shows like Free! as examples of heterosexual female-targeted fan service. There's nothing inherently wrong with a cheap sexual thrill.

The issue of over-sexualized character designs, particular female designs, is if they become so pervasive as to be the dominant depiction of women in not just a particular sub-genre, but in the medium of gaming as a whole. When over-sexualized depictions of femininity become the norm, that, consciously or unconsciously, sends a message about how gamers, developers, and publishers view women, or can negatively effect the treatment of women within the medium. However, as gaming has opened itself up to a wider variety of female characters and depictions of femininity, that no longer becomes the case. I think it's easier now for most people to see this stuff for what it is.

 

[balladbird]

Games/anime/ manga that feature martial arts and heavily rely upon female cast members being put in fanservice-y positions are their own genre of japanese media: panty fighters. This game is just the latest in the line of works made famous by titles like "ikki tosen" and "history's strongest disciple: kenichi"

Even in Japan they're a niche market, but they hit the niche well enough to stay in business. I don't see the appeal myself. in the age of rule 34 and the internet, I can get porn of anything if I'm in the mood for porn, so fanservice has lost its use, but eh, to each their own.

 

[Candidus]

I'm the market for this one.

Vanguard Princess was a sure purchase until I saw that it wasn't dual audio. That's the only thing keeping me away.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

That's a bit too much for me in a video game. Anime or manga, okay, but for some reason in a video game it goes too far. No, I have no idea who that makes any sense.
I admit that I got into the Dead or Alive series though because of the girls. And Ninja Gaiden. Ayane is awesome.

 

[freaper]

Maybe some people just prefer a bit of T&A shots in their games instead of straight up adult content. Fan-service implies that there was a point in the franchise/series where there wasn't this extra focus on panty shots or whatever. If it's a new IP with this kind of content can you really call it fan-service? And does it really matter if it has?

 

[Tanis]

I never heard of the game till this thread.
So, hey, it's doing it's job...I guess.

Reminds me of Arcana Hearts.
Though, less polished.

 

[Yan007]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ7sbnUI1AI [NSFW - Probably]

The game is Vanguard Princess, a fighter with an all female cast. Do you think that this type of fan service is needed to sell it. If they were clothed, no panty shots, no schoolgirl outfits, no swimsuits, no cleavage popping out, would it sell?

This video proves a point, sex sells. The amount they got on steam from this game is by far any sales they would have had in the past. But the question is, would you bother with a fighter that didn't have these obvious and glorified cliches if it was only a female cast?

How about you ask the developer? To be honest I'm getting tired of this sort of question. What happened to games as art? Does it only apply when you like the product? Of course I'm not saying this game should be free of criticism, but it is not trying to be a Picasso of gaming and should be judged by the goals it's set to reach. So for me, if you make a fighter with nude Japanese schoolgirls one of my questions would be - is the end result pleasing to look at for people who bought a game about this particular topic?

And of course sex sells. We are biologically driven to want sex as much as we want food, water and air.

 

[DEAD34345]

Necessary is the wrong word to use I think, there's no universal good and bad things for media or other creative products. Having that kind of fanservice will attract some audiences and alienate others, just like literally anything else you could put into a game. I think it looks horrible, personally, but I don't doubt that other people might think it looks great.

I wouldn't bother playing a fighter at all (they don't interest me), but if I was into fighters I might buy a non-sexualised all-female fighter. I wouldn't specifically look for that in a game, but it wouldn't put me off either. I'd most likely be taking other things into account, such as how it worked as a game or its specific art style.

 

[Hashbrick]

Wow, all great points on both sides of the argument!

I don't think asking the developer would get an acceptable answer. The point is to reflect on the game from a customer perspective. What the dev wanted or claimed to have wanted, means nothing during criticism.

 

[Erttheking]

Look, I'm not arguing that sex in games don't have their place, because it fills a niche market. The frustrating thing about them is that the niche for people who don't want to play as scantily clad women is kind of underfed. So I won't buy this game, I hope the people who do buy it enjoy it, and it's not wrong, it's just filling a niche that isn't exactly wanting while other niches are very wanting. It's like modern military shooters. Nothing wrong with liking them, but some people want to play something else.

 

[Something Amyss]

My point wasn't that sex sells. My point was that it doesn't matter if it sells.

Until and unless the topic creator changes the thread, it's still the topic at hand. You're addressing it yourself.

Removing the fan-service from this game would be like removing the cooling-element from a fridge, you can definitely do it but it wouldn't be a fridge any longer. It'd just be a wacky cupboard.

Just add ice and you'll have an ice box! Why you'd do that is beyond me, though.

I really do think that level of fanservice would make a lot of potential customers uncomfortable.

Or that's what they'd say when they were caught playing it!

*crickets*

Err...I'll just see myself out.

But seriously, it's hard to tell exactly how much impact this might have on a game that wasn't entirely T&A, but I'd say "uncomfortable" is definitely a fair minimum.

I'm going to go one step further and say that when I see this much "fanservice," it triggers a part of my brain that assumes the game is going to be bad. And it's not without merit. Usually, games like this have very little substance and a lot of skin and that's about it. A cynical person might even think the latter is a deliberate way to sell a product with issues with the former. And again, whether that's effective is another thing entirely. For that matter, whether it's what the developers had in mind.

Basically, because the game is shamelessly trying to tug at my genitals, I start to assume it's going to be bad. Especially since I don't really find this kind of stuff titillating. And I know people treat that as a line, too, but it's the case. I'm not saying I never look at polygons or paint and think "mmmmm...." but this? No. Just....No.

I can't speak for other people, but it not only puts me off aesthetically, but also sets off the cynical in me. Thousands (maybe millions) of absolutely terrible products out there are sold with cleavage.

...That being said, at least this product seems to be comparably honest, since T&A seems to be the primary point. The whole "game" thing seems to be the pretense here.

 

[Something Amyss]

t's like modern military shooters. Nothing wrong with liking them, but some people want to play something else.

That can't be true. You must be lying. Everything should be shooterfied. I want a FPS based on Boggle! And if the cubes could be changed into sexy, bikini-clad women, preferably anime style, all the better.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Well, I enjoy fighting games and that video has definitely ensured that I won't be buying this game. I'm sure there are plenty of others who'd feel the same way.

That said, I wouldn't be fooling anyone if I denied the existence of the large numbers of people who would probably be attracted to the game precisely because of that stuff, so...

It's not "necessary" and it will alienate some potential customers, but there's definitely a market for it.

But here's the thing, do you think it would sell as well( or better) without it? I don't think so, sure it's easy for people to say " if it wasn't so fanservice-y , i would buy it" but honestly, i don't believe it. I think most people who critise the game for having fanservice, wouldn't buy it even if it wasn't. Because honestly, all that is fluff, the real meat is the gameplay and mechanics. And if those are solid, the rest shouldn't matter in my opinion.

As for the question if i would buy a game with an all girl cast that wasn't fan service, i point you to skullgirls.

While Vanguard Princess isn't a good example for me because I wouldn't buy it regardless, as I don't like fighting games, I've not bought a few games simply because of how they look even if they're solid games. I don't intend on ever playing Psychonauts because of how it looks. It seems like a great game with solid gameplay and humor that's right up my alley (I'm a psychologist), but I'll never play it just because of how it looks. Maybe the rest doesn't matter for you, but I'm here to tell you that at least for someone else (me) that's not the case.

 

[Ratty]

That "slowed down wins" video instantly reminded me of this.

Well, the developers think it's necessary for the audience they're going for. So whatever. I'm actually not much into "pervert shaming" over some tacky anime drawings which don't ultimately hurt anyone. But I'll say I'm sure the publisher probably loses some potential customers by making them too embarrassed to consider playing the game. But there will always be a market for sexploitation, and hey they're not even objectifying real women here. So win-win?