Vegetarians - why?

[Homo Carnivorous]

It's accepted because it works. Dr. Ornish wouldn't be reversing (that is, curing) heart disease through a vegan diet if it didn't work.

I have heard this claim many times. But find it hard to come by independent verification or duplication. Do you know of any?

Not really. Dr. John McDougall is still a staunch proponent of treating his patients with an extremely low-fat diet

another proud member of the PCRM echochamber. Just sain...

I would be willing to change my mind if presented with new information; and indeed, I have over the course of my life. Would you?

Sure, I tried both vegetarian and vegan for a year because it was all the rage at the time. Never faired well on either even with a load of supplements. I did vegetarian better and I suspect I could live fairly well as a vegetarian that adhere to indian standard of plenty of animal fat. But I dont want to, because I feel much better as a carnivore.

You're either genetically predisposed to such a diet or your bodybuilding lifestyle is allowing you to burn off the excess, I'd wager.

ahh comon buddy. Special pleading. But you are right in part. In the end of 2010 a team of researchers at the university of Copenhagen discovered a gene that controls cholesterol in the body. And it appears that about 1/4 of us have a defect that may (or may not) be the cause of CVD. Time will tell.

You say you're doing well so I have no reason to doubt you. I've met quite a few bodybuilders over the years but precious few of them that aren't plagued with health problems in their 50's and 60's, if not before. Anecdotal evidence, though I've spent my fair share of time in/with the medical community in one of America's largest cities.

A few things to concider. Bodybuilders have since the early 80's been almost hysterically scared of fats. All fats. Their protein intake has been much, much too high, they did this because without fat the protein isnt utilized by the body very well. And then there are the drugs. Nobody takes them if you ask them, but look at their bloated guts and swollen faces and tell me that they are not on more dope than your average raver on a good weekend.

I try not to refer to myself as 'bodybuilder' because the above is what bodybuilders are. Most of them have some kind of eating disorder, self image problem IMO. physical culturists are well defined in Randy Roach exhaustive work on early bodybuilders "Musle, Smoke and Mirrors". my personal idols are guys like Armand Tanny, Vince Gironda, Jack Lalanne (vegetarian later in his life and he is one amazing man) etc.. the clean folks who wanted their body to express the health they persued. Size was secondary untill what we know as "the age of Arnold".

Sure. And my great-grandfather smoked and drank until the day he died in his 90's. We're all genetically different.

Thats not true. But we have different working metabolisms.

Doesn't mean this diet is good for the majority of people, of non-bodybuilders - Hell, even OF bodybuilders. I'm glad you haven't developed any nutritional deficiencies, cancer, or cardiovascular problems from a lack of fruits and vegetables in your diet, truly. I doubt many physicians will be recommending this to their patients anytime soon, though.

The funny thing is that they do. Sometimes, in cases of great weakness, doctors order raw meat for a patient. it is an extremely dense foodstuffs so it makes sense. The diabetes doctors are starting to use 'ketogenic' diet principles that are also used with great succes on people with epilepsy. Ketogenic doesnt automatically mean "meat diet" should be said. but its easyer with a meat diet.

Here you make a lot of statements that are basically your opinions.

Good for me they are backed by science then. Which of the statements do you believe to be incorrect?

There are vegan sources of saturated fat too, though I still wouldn't consume massive amounts of them.

avocados and coconuts. Coincidentally. I like both! I also like Durians and other such odd fruits.

All I can really say is... OK? You honestly think it's quite hard to find vegans who have been living the lifestyle for 10 years+ out there that are doing fine?

Depends on what your definition of "fine" is?

Here your own link provides several possible reasons as to why eskimos don't get scurvy. None of them seem conclusive. None of them impact the point I was making - if you cut all plant foods out of YOUR diet and ate no supplements I would be willing to bet you would suffer for it far more than I am "suffering" from a lack of meat.

But here I am, and I dont. Do you think the odd durian fruit is going to make a world of difference when the bulk of my diet is 80% sat fat 20% protein measured by energy?

Yup, those rural southeast Asians and Chinese who are eating all that raw milk, fish, eggs, and ghee. Yup.

Well... http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/

You pretty much say that about anything you disagree with, yes?

only when its true. There are many things I disagree with that I still have respect or admiration for. the PCRM echochamber is not one of them.

Yes and I can point to vegan blogs of people who claim veganism cured their cancer. Your point? Your scientific data?

I did not say anything about curing anything. I talked about drop out only.

I doubt that MSG is responsible for the massive amounts of cardiovascular disease in the US, but I don't consume it. At least we agree on the importance of quality food, meat or non-meat.

MSG, wheat flour, white sugar, corn sirup it all adds up. But I am severely suspicious of MSG, ill admit to that. Aspartame and such as well. it is additives meant to make non food taste not only like food, but taste well.

We agree on the refined carbs being relatively unhealthy. Unrefined whole grains and vegetables aren't remotely unhealthy. Apples and oranges.

fair enough. I am unconvinced by the 'fiber' argument for grains, but if i was to eat grain. I would eat them whole and probably sprouted.

I dont believe you.

What have I said that gives you the impression that I would be resistant to new information? I'm not vegan for ethical reasons, as I stated.[/quote]

Guilt by association. Its my problem, not yours You probably didnt deserve that one, but in my dealings with vegans before. I always felt I was talking to a cult memember. You talk some of the talk, but ok.... you didnt deserve that one. Sorry.

The meta-analysis you provided on saturated fat intake

Is the largest ever conducted. Ever. American heart Association arent those the guys that used to have their logo on cocoa puffs as heart healthy foods?

Again, if cholesterol isn't an issue why is heart disease seen in such decreased amounts in populations with cholesterol serum levels under 150?

Such as? I would be interrested in seeing the data on this?

Then again, I am already arguing with a person who states that he ignores studies at whim which disagree with

Thats not true. I just dont accept propagandists as 'information' which mean I blatantly ignore PCRM and anyone connected with them in any way.

I know people who eat exclusively meat who are in good health.

yeah, how many do you know?

 

[The Gnome King]

Anyway @The Gnome King... you sound kind of brainwashed and obsessive, as if this entire vegan thing is something that defines you. You seem very eager to put your views onto other people and the 'sources' you linked were all 'self help' diet book advert-pages. This shows you are putting your entire trust base into what is essentially a brain-washing money making scheme. Psychologically, that isn't healthy, I would advise putting less emphasis on it and maybe taking up an unrelated hobby.

The Mayo Clinic and the American Heart Association are money-making brainwashing schemers?

I'm eager to "put my views" onto other people? How? I'm one of the least militant vegans I know, I readily admit that meat eaten in small quantities can be eaten healthfully, I myself take... you know, this isn't worth it.

Uh, if that's what you got out of my post, carry on, bro. Carry on. I'll work on that hobby you suggested since you obviously have a deep and perceptive grasp on human psychology and mine in particular.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

American Heart Association are money-making brainwashing schemers?

Schemers is a bit much. But they have some strange priorities.

(This was removed from the list after it got a lot of press)

 

[The Gnome King]

yeah, how many do you know?

*laughs* OK bro, OK. I think I've reached my capacity to trade websites and abstract medical studies with you for the time being. I know quite a few vegans who are doing just fine, as I said, and you're probably the only person I've ever met who claims to be healthy on a "mostly meat" diet - so; more power to ya.

When those studies come out vindicating you and showing how high cholesterol levels and saturated fat are cardioprotective and that vegans can't be healthy, I'll personally admit defeat. Thing is, I haven't seen it yet.

What I have seen is this - as I said in the beginning - Michael Pollen's advice is probably the most sensible I've heard.

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

Savvy.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Meat tastes utterly terrible.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

I know quite a few vegans who are doing just fine, as I said, and you're probably the only person I've ever met who claims to be healthy on a "mostly meat" diet -

Get to know more of us if you like. http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/ is one place where carnivores hang out. These are mostly raw foodists. I am not a raw foodist allthough the majority of my food is eaten raw I hate to adhere to anything with religius vigor. It appears that my health cares little for my personally held ideologies and beliefs and I am better of eating like a ...well...a pig =/

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Some people just don't like meat, it's an acquired taste just like everything else. If you grew up in a society which treated vegetables as meat is treated now, you bet you would like vegetables. Also vegetables are given no attention when meat is give a great deal of attention. Meat is always marinated and cooked to perfection, while vegetables are often low quality to begin with (frozen vegetable medley, yuck) and far over cooked with no spices or marination.

As for why vegetables and not why you prefer meat to vegetables. It's healthier, you've heard all the bad things about meat in sure.
Meat is extremely detrimental to the environment, I'm sure you've heard this too, raising so many cows and how much water and food it takes to produce a single pound of meat. A person who primarily eats meat actually has a bigger carbon footprint if they walk to travel than they do if they drive a car (because of meat calories burned). Yes, more vegetables are necessary for equivalent calories, but the cows needed to eat those plants anyway (and support their own bodies) to generate your meat.

I'm not vegetarian by the way.

Meat has plenty of variety, especially in taste.

That's not true, the main varieties of meat in the US are chicken, cow, and pig. After that Turkey, Duck, and Lamb have some prevalence, but not much else shows up. (I am excluding seafood from this list because I know plenty of people who just avoid land and air meat while eating fish)
Most of the differences are just in how it is cooked, what flavorings are used, and the like. Even different animals can taste quite similar.
Plants have huge variety. How many fruits do you see in the fruit aisle? How many variations do you see of apples alone? Look at corn and rice and wheat and the greens section. There's tofu (don't be hatin', it's good if someone who actually knows how [and doesn't try to imitate meat] to cook makes it.) of many different varieties. You can even make a tofu mousse without sacrificing flavor if you cook with tofu on its own merits.

I tried stuff like tofu and couscous once. They tasted like hair and were not filling in the slightest. I even tried a full vegetarian lunch and it was not filling(Paella I think is how you spell it. It was some Spanish thing and salad). I have no problem if people like vegetarian food I just want to put in my two cents there that it is extremely unfilling.

 

[GBlair88]

Some people like things you don't. Get over it.

 

[TheAmokz]

Humans are omnivores.
I am human.
Ergo, i eat meat.

 

[The Gnome King]

P.S. I'm done arguing with you on the internet, you're obviously a complete weirdo T_T

"Hello, Pot."

"Yes, Kettle?"

"You're black."

"Oh."

I will endeavor to find things to do with my time now that you are no longer arguing with me.

 

[JasonKaotic]

I hate the whole human superiority thing. What we do isn't natural.
If a human kills an animal it's acceptable, but if an animal kills a human IT'S EVIL AND DESERVES TO DIE!

Evil is not an absolute construct. It IS relative and subjective.

If aliens come to kill us you can say:

"hey you can't kill me, I'm a vegan"

And see how far that gets you. I think anyone with any common sense would not submit to death just because they did the same to animals with minuscule brains that is barely capable of the most simple thought.

Illusion of moral superiority doesn't count for shit when you're dead.

...What? That's not my point at all and you know it. My point was that nothing makes humans more important than animals. I was using an example. Nothing to do with us surviving.

Humans are more important to humans than animals because we are humans.

To put the locust before the human is catastrophic.

So, just because? That's not a reason. Not one part of the human body makes them superior to other life. Sure we have higher intelligence, but dogs have better smell, cats can jump higher, cheetahs are faster, tortoises have longer lifespans, etc. One aspect of us is better, but that doesn't make us superior. Along with that, humans destroy everything they can for the selfish reason of living more comfortably, whereas the worst any animals do is accidentally release a bit of methane, and yet you'd say animals are more savage than us.

And I'm not putting locusts before humans. That's the exact opposite of my point. I'm saying they're as important as us, not more important. That they have as much right to live as us, and however many human superiority zealots like you there are, nothing changes that.

 

[Gluzzbung]

I don't mind vegitarians as such, it does make it difficult on a night out to go to a kebab shop or such but as long as they don't profocise about it at me, It's fine.

 

[Jakub324]

My sister was a vegetarian for about 15 minutes, when she gave up in the face of a steak sandwich.

 

[Ampersand]

To be honest i've never understood the point of view of people who eat meat, I don't really bring it up anymore because people just get really angry or offended for some reason and I'm not willing to go to war with the world over it.

In response to your question there are a million answers i could give you but one of the main ones is that, eating animals is really messed up because I am an animal.

 

[StBishop]

Have you never eaten green food (or fruits)? Just about anything in the produce aisle other than artichokes can be bitten into right there. It might not taste great, but nor would raw meat (which also must be cooked by the way to avoid disease and taste good.)

It doesn't matter what was history though, it matters what is now. Our bodies CAN survive on vegetables alone (assuming you ensure you get your protein), and can't survive well on only meat (you miss out on too many vitamins and minerals).

Also I edited my first comment to reply to your variety of meat comment if you care to read it.

False.

Meat is perfectly delicious raw, however only if of high quality.

I won't bother arguing any other points raised in the thread because I simply don't care enough. I'm interested to see a novel reasoning but I can't be bothered arguing about this topic, it's an exercise in futility.

TRUE.

ALL commonly eaten meat is the US is cooked. Just because there are a couple dishes that aren't doesn't mean meat in general is not cooked.

Also, I was replying in kind to the other commenter's comment, I see nothing about you confirming that almost every single commonly eaten plant can be eaten raw.

You people (commenters on the forum) really need to understand context.

I'm not from the U.S.A. and nor are a number of the posters on this forum. The way things are done in the States doesn't affect simple truths. If it's illegal to do something in one country it doesn't make that a universal truth that this act is illegal, the act is only illegal in that country. You can't say "this act is illegal" without qualifying where you're on about. This applies not only to laws but to conventions and societal norms, like the way food's prepared.

Just because meat sometimes has to be cooked does not mean that meat has to be cooked. It might mean that meat usually has to be cooked, but it doesn't mean that is has to be cooked.

I'm just going to go right ahead and assume that you've never eaten raw meat, it tastes delicious. It's common to eat uncooked meats in some countries. Therefore it's safe to assume I'm not the only one who enjoys it.
So the claim you made that cooking meat is the only way to make it taste good is in fact false.

In regard to vegetables not needing to be cooked. I could go on to argue about the way humans have evolved to have small, almost non-functional, appendixes making most raw plant matter indigestible to humans and that the other commenter's claim is not utterly incorrect. But it's a waste of time, because a large amount of plant matter is edible raw, and like you said, there's almost nothing in the produce section of a supermarket/greengrocers that can't be eaten raw.

Regardless of context, you made a claim which was untrue. I was simply pointing it out.

Also, while we're on the topic of reading posts and replying out of context, I did mention that I can't be bothered arguing with vegetarians about being a vegetarian. It's not worth it.
That's why I didn't comment on whether or not veggies can be eaten raw.

 

[Ampersand]

I eat factory farmed animals because if lions were smarter, they'd be happily factory farming humans.

......and you'd be cool with that?

 

[Ampersand]

I love how some say they don't eat living things. Yes, I've heard that one before. So to people who take that stance, quit eating vegetables. They're living too.

I always see someone make this point on these forums.
I feel as though I'd be remiss not to warn you that if you can't see any difference between killing an animal and killing a plant, then you're probably a sociopath.

Also you're not going to win an argument base on semantics.: /

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

I feel as though I'd be remiss not to warn you that if you can't see any difference between killing an animal and killing a plant, then you're probably a sociopath.

Why? Because the plant doesnt have big wet eyes to look at you with? A chain of chemical reactions that are similar to how our nerve system reacts to pain and suffering happens in the plant if you hurt it. It even sends out a chemical warning signal to surrounding plants.

And then there is a F-in hipocricy. I eat apx. 1 cow a year. I know my source so its the same for all the parts of cows I have eaten. For me personally. apx a cow a year. Thats the one single animal that has to die to sustain me. Since it is freerange and only feeds on grass, no animals died to support it beyond the unlucky bugs it munched. Do you hear me. to feed me for a year 1, ONE, UNO, EINZ a single animal has to die for my sustainance.

To feed you the vegan and vegetarian, hundreds of small rodents, birds, reptiles and such has to die. The lucky ones are killed by the combine harvester.....then theres the petrolium based fertilizers, pesticides and such...

So how does your ethical equation work. Pound for pound?. Ill admit, my animal was 400kg heavy, while all those small animals killed on the fields that fed you probably wouldnt weight as much lumped together. If the equation is. 1:1 (the logical one that dictates, killing animals is wrong period)then you are not on the high ethical road you may think yourself. Just sayin.

edit: in other words. The vegans plate is covered with blood, but youll be hard pressed to have them admit it.

 

[Ashtovo]

i know a few (and have considered it myself) that are so because meat is an inefficient (but admitedly delicious) source of food.