Video Game As Art Class: What Would You Like to See/Talk About?

[KingPiccolOwned]

snip

Okay I've got something of a list here of really good titles here that I believe encompass what an artistic game is about.

* Anything by Team Ico, that would be Shadow of the Colossus, Ico (obviously), and that new thing they are coming out with that I don't think has a name yet. Ask around someone might know, it has a giant griphon type thing in it.

* Psychonauts

* Portal and the Half-Life series

* Bioshock of course

* I would argue Fallout, I would go with Fallout 3 though simply because it is more current.

* Assassin's Creed and the upcoming Assassin's Creed 2 are great choices as well. There are a few problems with the gameplay in the first one, such as some repitition in the missions and the swordfighting isn't really that great, but in terms of a work of art, i.e. unique and well realized setting, deep characters, and a plot full of intrigue and social/political commentary it does the job fantastically.

* Silent Hill 2 is a must for the horror segment for many good reasons, check yahtzee's review for reasons why.

* No More Heroes

* Killer 7

* Braid

that's about all I can think of at the moment.

 

[BlindTom]

Perhaps mention The Path and Facade?

Games have a higher potential for wide narrative than other mediums because they can casualy impart information with no restraints on how long they have to tell you about the world. Books can do this also, but in a game you are even less tied to keeping the plot moving and you can stop to smply build the mood of your world for a while.

Also notable is the fact that games are the best at telling stories with equally legitimate branching endings. They can purposefully contradict themselves and the player will run with it and partition each reality, even whilst considering the story as a whole.

Think about how Fallout assigns endings specifically to each town in the game. Or how Deus Ex manages to be a lot more even handed about its philosophies because it genuinely has to keep the door open, rather than cater to the artists individual opinion.

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

I haven't played Deux Ex, but "moral choices that are a bit grayer" is not the same thing as "moral choices that matter."

I just woke up. Same applies, though, they're much more than the usual 'pet and love the kitten forever' / 'toss the kitten into the woodchipper' choices in games.

No it's more like "Commit genocide against a race of insectoid monstrosities by killing the last of it's kind, which by the way claims that it realizes the folly of its ancestors and swears it will never act in such a manner, to ensure the safety of the galaxy. Or Let it go and risk the chance of the creature (which is a queen by the way) and risk the chance of it reaccumulating its species numbers then exacting revenge on the rest of the galaxy effectively annihalating every other species in the galaxy." So yeah it's pretty grey.

 

[Evil Tim]

No it's more like

Wrong game. Mass Effect isn't the first to have you make moral choices that are shades of grey, nor the only one; it's just one that made a particular selling point of the fact. Drawing undue emphasis to this is like those fanboys who claim 'innovations' in Halo that on closer inspection were actually in Doom.

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

No it's more like

Wrong game. Mass Effect isn't the first to have you make moral choices that are shades of grey, nor the only one; it's just one that made a particular selling point of the fact. Drawing undue emphasis to this is like those fanboys who claim 'innovations' in Halo that on closer inspection were actually in Doom.

I didn't say it was the first or only game to have moral choices that were shades of grey, but saying that it doesn't is just plain being stubborn. That specific decision was in there as well as a number of others, for instance there is a sequence where you are sent to make a deal with an illeagal mod dealer by a C-sec officer, when you get there you have the desicion to either A) Attempt to arrest the dealer on the spot, which will stop the flow of illegal mods into the city... for now B) Make the deal with the mod distributor and then take them back to the C-sec officer as evidence, or C) Actually I forget what that option was, but still my point here is that it did have fairly grey choices, and in all honesty I don't think that the game was praised for making them, but rather bringing them back. At least that was what I recall.

 

[Evil Tim]

I didn't say it was the first or only game to have moral choices that were shades of grey, but saying that it doesn't is just plain being stubborn.

Good thing I'm not saying that, then. I'd suggest you go back and read more carefully.

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

I didn't say it was the first or only game to have moral choices that were shades of grey, but saying that it doesn't is just plain being stubborn.

Good thing I'm not saying that, then. I'd suggest you go back and read more carefully.

Well if that isn't what you were saying then I would say that you should tell me what you were saying, because it still seems to say that it doesn't have shades of grey.

 

[high_castle]

Not emotionally powerful? I spent at least ten minutes agonizing over a couple of the decisions. This game needs to be on the list because it's the first game in which your moral choices are actually a bit grayer than most games, and the first in which your choices matter.

This is not even slightly true, there were moral choices that mattered throughout, say, Deus Ex. Don't think 'only one I know of' means 'first.'

Deus Ex presented different ways to solve problems. But the choices you make didn't have quite the same impact or long-ranging effects as the choices in ME. And ME is the first game to have choices carry into the sequel, which is what I was talking about. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

 

[Evil Tim]

Well if that isn't what you were saying then I would say that you should tell me what you were saying, because it still seems to say that it doesn't have shades of grey.

What I was saying in that post was that the average game with a moral choice system comes down to pet the kitten / eat the kitten [Bioshock, for example], saying Deus Ex is more complicated. I wasn't actually referring to Mass Effect at all.

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

Well if that isn't what you were saying then I would say that you should tell me what you were saying, because it still seems to say that it doesn't have shades of grey.

What I was saying in that post was that the average game with a moral choice system comes down to pet the kitten / eat the kitten [Bioshock, for example], saying Deus Ex is more complicated. I wasn't actually referring to Mass Effect at all.

Oooookay. Why'd you change up the topic without telling me? Yeah I think that calling Bioshock's moral choice system deep is like calling a boiling oil cool. There was literally no middleground, if you had accidentally missed a couple little sisters the game still branded you a murderous douchbag. I think you might like that new Dragon Age Origins thing, from what you say. One thing though I don't know as though I agree with you when you said that it is hurting games when they include a wordy narrative, because while there is such a thing as having a narative that is too wordy (Anything Metal Gear) I don't know as that there are many ways of having something that is deep without there being some narrative. Okay the Team Ico games are a good counter to that, however some messages (like social commentary) are difficult to do without a narrative, unless it's a game about going to an art gallery. I use Assassin's Creed as an example of this because while I know that it does have quite a good deal of narrative, it isn't anywhere as near redundant or overdone as the Metal Gear story, nor is none of it necessary. It all really helps define the characters as well as the plot.

 

[Evil Tim]

But it runs counter to the 'show, don't tell' concept of a visual medium to just stop everything while exposition is delivered, and even more counter to the spirit of a game to stop cold until stuff has been explained. Either the player should still be doing something worthwhile, or there should at least be some way for the player to interact with or influence the narrative sections while they're happening.

 

[Kage Me]

I'd definitely cover pioneer games like Klonoa; Door to Phantomville (2,5D graphics) and Metal Gear (stealth-based game). Also games that make a statement (World of Goo comes to mind) and games that really try to do something different (Killer7 and Fatal Frame could both apply).

Basically, go over history and pick out some notable games to examinate in more detail.

 

[Halo Fanboy]

It would be errant to be so specific with individual analysis with certain games. I would talk about something well known and Familiar like Space Invaders or Pacman.

Using the Pacman example, you can talk about how the rules of the game rely on central themes such as quick decision making, resource use and aquisition, the ability to predict enemy behavior and general competition with other humans. Talk about the look of the game from both a functional and aesthetic standpoint, such as how videogames use visual feedback to indicate something to the player (such as the ghost and their loss of vibrant color when you consume a power pellet.) From a narrative perspective you can disscuss how the character is an avatar of the player and therefore what happens to them will affect the play in ways seperate from othe mediums. For example if the character dies, the player will have a greater reaction than any onlookers.

If you want to play something more modern try Left 4 Dead, Gears of War or Halo 3 which will give the oppurtunity to talk about teamwork and more dircet competition than Pacman's leaderboards. I'm sure the students will be satisfied with your class if you can get a decent LAN party going.

 

[WayOutThere]

A multiple choice test is hardly an interactive story; in fact, realistically it's a step backward if anything.

You're acting like there was a correct answer.

multiple choice test my ass

Look at an older game like, say, Castlevania. You find the plot could only really be explained as a series of actions, somewhat like an old saga which would describe a story as a sequence of mighty deeds; in Castlevania, for example, we learn Simon Belmont fights Medusa because the player goes and does it. This sort of thing is perfect for the medium, as the player is writing the storyline as they go along, without the need for additional information to be delivered.

You may have to explain this a little more.

an utterly manufactured and artificial obstacle course.

They snuck into the place, what do you want?

one of which has a totally illogical solution which can only be discovered by trial and error [figuring out where the gap is in the group of men walking across the field].

You call finding a gap illogical? It took me two tries to get this section right, a small price to pay for the level of immersion it brought because the bad guys were *right there*.

Errors are punished in stupid and illogical ways [screw up the shot by the pond and some guys randomly jump out of a nearby shipping container where they were hiding for absolutely no good reason]

I don't actually remember this.

In the second case, there's no game to the section; the most you can do is move your point of view, and the section is designed so there's rarely more than one thing to look at. The sequence might as well be a cutscene for all the interactivity it actually posesses.

If it was a cut scene you could not feel as if it were *you* in the car. Think about how powerful the part where the guy was killed could have been if you actually cared for his character. YOU were just killed, not some guy on the screen.

Remember, I called Call of Duty 4 an "honorable mention" for a reason. This sequence was a step in the right direction more than actual art.

and it is a bad goal for a videogame to try to be a movie

You need to show some appriciation for just how hard making games anything else is. If games aren't like movies its because they are interactive but developers aren't going to design different levels or cut scenes for every possible choice the character could make.

 

[Pimppeter2]

Oblivion for freedom

 

[Evil Tim]

You're acting like there was a correct answer.

Not really. Almost all games which claim their narratives contain choices really just give you a flow chart. Pick the option, the story continues to play out in its pre-ordained way. This isn't a substantial step forward from those old choose your own adventure books.

You may have to explain this a little more.

In a truly interactive story the player both drives and defines the plot; in older games often ridiculed for their lack of plot, every action the player made was part of an ongoing narrative. The modern game instead tries to disconnect the narrative from the gameplay and segregate it into movie-like segments. It used to be when we defeated a boss it exploded, now we have an extended sequence of our avatar doing things we can't make it do while the boss replies with attacks it didn't posess [see DMC 3 or 4, for example], until eventually it is defeated. This isn't really an improvement since it's taking control [and thus ownership] of the action away from the player.

They snuck into the place, what do you want?

No invisible instant-death walls slung around the place at random, perhaps to be presented with the option of taking multiple routes rather than just whether to fire a shot or not, maybe even to be the guy leading rather than the guy following so it's my job to evaluate and make the calls. Jumping [or more usually crawling] through a series of hoops doesn't really cut it. Neither does having the sniper shot in the middle of the level have the exact same result no matter where I actually hit with it or how many more shots I fire.

You call finding a gap illogical? It took me two tries to get this section right, a small price to pay for the level of immersion it brought because the bad guys were *right there*.

The men don't wander across the field in predictable paths, neither is it clear what they will or will not be able to spot. It's sheer trial and error, and a mistake that'd be easily avoided by adding any hint of logic to the proceedings.

I don't actually remember this.

When you see the two men throwing bodies from a flatbed into a pond immediately after the section in the field, shoot one immediately. A squad of soldiers will immediately jump out of a nearby shipping container. Another example would be being jumped randomly by an entire pack of dogs that come from nowhere if you shoot the one you're told not to.

If it was a cut scene you could not feel as if it were *you* in the car. Think about how powerful the part where the guy was killed could have been if you actually cared for his character. YOU were just killed, not some guy on the screen.

But literally minutes beforehand I was someone else. I actually found the shift a rather bizarre decision; perhaps if I had been that character for some period of time beforehand it would have worked [as with the later sequence with Paul Jackson], but it just seemed to be there as an excuse to copy the Half-Life train ride credits sequence.

You need to show some appriciation for just how hard making games anything else is. If games aren't like movies its because they are interactive but developers aren't going to design different levels or cut scenes for every possible choice the character could make.

Why should they be designing cutscenes at all, though? Structured levels I can understand. Telling a story at the player rather than letting them experience it is a bad trend. The idea that something being difficult excuses not trying is nonsense.

 

[fun-with-a-gun]

The way that I would view video games as and art would be that most games would be like someone being read a story at their own pace.

now some other stories (games) are influenced by the reader (player) like with some moral choice games or where there are multiple options that contradict each other. (being a Human/ being an invading Alien) those changes would change how the story is read immensely.

 

[WayOutThere]

Regarding that part from CoD 4 you're problem with it seems two-fold. 1) it was linear 2) it was trial and error

For (2) I think I just got lucky and found it to be a relatively smooth ride. Well, except for the part where I decided not to shoot the dog- of course something bad is going to happen if you shoot it, that's why you were told not to shoot it.

Its (1) that bothers me. Yes it was linear but I'm OK with that. I like both linearity and and non-linearity and wouldn't want to have only one and none of the other. That part of CoD 4 was very immersive and linear or not I praise it for that.

But literally minutes beforehand I was someone else. I actually found the shift a rather bizarre decision; perhaps if I had been that character for some period of time beforehand it would have worked [as with the later sequence with Paul Jackson]

That's fair but I'm going to refer back to my "step in the right direction" bit.

but it just seemed to be there as an excuse to copy the Half-Life train ride credits sequence.

No, that part added some real personality to the game. No excuses can ever be needed to do that.

Why should they be designing cutscenes at all, though?

Cut scenes serve their purpose. Ideally they would not be included at all and they can't add artistic merit to a game in themselves but they help flesh out the parts of the game that do have artistic merit.

Telling a story at the player rather than letting them experience it is a bad trend.

Cut scenes are a dying trend.

The idea that something being difficult excuses not trying is nonsense.

Fuck man, I didn't say that. All I did was explain why games haven't developed further as an art form than they have already.

----

I have not responded to all of your reply yet. I'll come back to the rest later.

 

[Nutcase]

Alright, so this is somewhat of a cop out on my part. Brain's a bit fried and I'm somewhat at an impasse for ideas. Friends and I are teaching a class about Video Games this semester at Cal, mainly drawing parallels between VG and other forms of art, how it imitates traditional media and also how it breaks the mold. It's an attempt to get gamers and non-gamers to think about video games as more than just pixels on a screen, introduce some new perspectives, and even if they don't agree with us, hell, at least it'll be a chance to verbalize their criticism and defend it.

But with just us amateur gamers making up the lesson plans, it does feel like we're possibly neglecting a good chunk of ideas. So here's the question I'm proposing to you guys. If you had to run a class on Video Games as Art, or were attending such a class - which games would you like to talk about, any producers or developers that you feel must be mentioned in this context? Or hell, any topic of discussion that should be addressed? Figured this would be the right forum for asking such things. Incidentally, here's a link to the current course syllabus and some of the things we've come up with. http://www.decal.org/1054

Define "art" and "artistic".

 

[Aqualung]

I'm assuming by 'art', you're talking design and visuals.. So I have no idea why people are talking about Call of Duty..

Taking a look at your course outline there, I'd recommend one game per class. For examples:

Class 5: Mass Effect
Class 6: Shadow of the Colossus
Class 10: Silent Hill series
Class 14: Alone in the Dark 5

Just a few thoughts, I'd have to go through some time and a lot of games to fill the course. But good luck!