Video games are an indication of a new "Man-Teen" culture....for gods sake....

[werepossum]

"I assumed that, after adolescence, young men put away childish things and played amateur football, got amusingly drunk, instigated punch-ups, watched Big Brother or ineffectually pursued women".

That's funny. One reason my wife doesn't mind me playing video games is that I'm not out playing football, or getting drunk, or fighting, or watching reality TV, or pursuing women in any manner whatsoever. (The other reason being she plays them as well.) And I'm certainly not delaying marriage or having kids; we've got grandkids older than some board members here.

The proper reaction to a woman like this writer is not violence. A simple "Oh G-d, you're one of those!" will suffice.

She probably collects ceramic cats.

 

[Girlysprite]

I read an interesting article this day in a newspaper; When parents are older, their children tend to do better at schools en work. This is most likely because the parents have enough money, they are already past the career race, generally have more time to spend with the kids and have more experiences to share.

Downside is still that past the thirties, it gets harder to get a child as a women still. But when I read it I thought 'ah, there is this article disproven'

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Married motherhood ain't no picnic, either. Not to mention I think she suffers from the delusion that a lot of people who are obsessed with marriage do: the idea that once they get married everything will be okay forever and ever.

There are plenty of single mothers out there who were married to the father of their children at the time of conception. They're called 'first wives'.

Except for the ones called 'widows'.

Either that or they are women who decided that, for whatever reason, the husband was more of a burden than a helpmate. But yeah, I'm basically in agreement with you. She clearly believes that Marriage Will Make It All Better, and I'm betting her thoughts around that are largely economic, which I find both sad and mildly disgusting.

But it's no mystery where she gets this idea. I also know a lot of two-mother households, and every freakin' time they talk to anyone outside the gay community about their kids, it's all "What about the father? What about the father?" and no matter what they answer, it's just CHILDREERING UR DOIN IT WRONG.

Whatever. I can see the dynamic that lead this woman to think the way she does, but I've got no sympathy with it, none at all. I also know women who use a game console to babysit their kids, just like they use the TV or the DVD player to babysit their kids. I remember taking care of a neighbor's little boy - 4 years old, he had no functional language skills and he wasn't fully potty-trained, but he could operate every single electronic entertainment device I owned. So it's not a husband thing, it's a get-a-life thing. It's not a father thing, it's a raise your kids right thing.

Also, if I were a mom and as geeky as I am now, I have no doubt people would think I was fucking up my kid. How can I raise a kid when I don't behave like a grownup myself? (to kind of circle back to the original topic.) Certain things have been infantilized in our culture, like comics and games, that shouldn't be. That's just a fact.

If it's any consolation to anyone out there, the geek couples of my acquaintance are the happiest couples I know, because they share common enthusiasms, and because they can share these enthusiasms with their kids, it all works. My geeky cousin and her geeky husband take their kids to anime and sci-fi cons and they all have a great time together. It's the standard Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus marriages I know of that are utterly miserable.

 

[Quistnix]

She probably collects ceramic cats.

That's the best statement from this entire thread.

And what's with the entire "would/would not have sex with her"-talk? I'm a healthy, heterosexual male with regular hormonal functions, but when I'm with "the guys" we never talk like that. Did my gaming habit ruin my alpha-male-boasting gland without me noticing or something?

 

[FaceInTheSand]

While I heartily disagree with her assessment that growing up entails just getting a family and home, and working in some dead-end factory job where you can build up a sweat and get an honest days' pay, I like the idea that there is a difference between perceived maturity levels.

I am currently at the University of Nottingham, UK doing a humanities degree, and have reached the ripe old age of 20. This, stereotypically, should lead you to the conclusion that I am out all night clubbing and getting drunk out of my skull, smoking weed, sleeping with every willing recepticle and foregoing my studies to go on protests against "monopolies" like Starbucks.

However, my hobbies are much more restrained. I have a couple of Warhammer armies, I DM for my gaming group, I have a 360 and a computer. I play mandolin, flute and guitar in a folk duo (obviously, not all at the same time). I brew my own ale and mead. I read a fair bit of philosophy and history in addition to doing most of the work for my course. I've started to do archery and scrimshaw (bone carving).

This dichotomy of interests between me and the norm is distinct, and there are times when I'm not at Isis' student night (ladies get in free if they're wearing school uniform) on a Wednesday evening, but am instead watching Hitchcock films and painting my miniatures and I wonder - am I still a kid?

All this standard "Growing Up" stuff I haven't done - I can count the amount of times I've had sex on my fingers and toes, I can only just about fill a bath-and-a-half with the amount of booze I've drunk, I've don't do drugs and I've gone out clubbing four times in my life.

I do wonder, who is more mature? Me, who prefers to stay in and create, or them, who prefer to go out and destroy.
The writer of that first article would say "Them", surely, because of the fact that the law states you can't go out drinking, shagging and dancing before the age of 16 or 18. Therefore, they're doing more "mature" things.

But, I sometimes look down on them and think that going frat-boy-crazy is nothing more than a futile and immature expression of the first taste of "freedom" most of these people get. The first time they're away from home, the first time they're not being judged by their parents. The first time they don't have to be up early for school. And they can't handle that freedom, and just drink and bang everything. I like to think that my reaction to that freedom - to take on new hobbies (mandolin, brewing, archery) - is much more mature than a stock hedonistic reflex.

Having said that, I occasionally get envious of them, deep down, for that careless confidence and disregard of consequences - and that envy makes me wish I could 'grow up' to be like them. I know it's all down to preferences and what you, as an individual, enjoy, but there is an uncomfortable feeling that what I'm doing is "wrong" and what they're doing is "right" because it's in the majority.

 

[MeputthecaninthebininHL2]

meh, she was probably blown off by here boyfriend the stupid *****.

 

[Deatre]

Having said that, I occasionally get envious of them, deep down, for that careless confidence and disregard of consequences - and that envy makes me wish I could 'grow up' to be like them. I know it's all down to preferences and what you, as an individual, enjoy, but there is an uncomfortable feeling that what I'm doing is "wrong" and what they're doing is "right" because it's in the majority.

This hit a cord with me, having a similar (Or almost identicle) experience. I see many of those people out drinking, smoking and 'laughing' and I can't understand why or how. The only time I'll drink is in social situations, and even then I'm reluctant, as my opinion of alchohol is "Tastes like piss"

Sometimes I'm left thinking that I'm missing something that they have in abundance.

Though a heavily romantic view from the other side of the grass, as then I think of the various problems because of these same things. Drink driving, attacks, binge drinking, alchohol poisoning. Which are rather big problems over here that people are still having trouble addressing.

Overall, I don't think maturity is found at the bottom of a bottle or how many times you can 'do the horizontal tango'

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Woo, nerve hit. Let's make sure this doesn't get catty..

But then she wins either way, doesn't she?
If we react, it's because it hit a nerve.
If we don't react, it must be true.

I read the above several times and I honestly don't the the logic of what you are saying here. I'm not saying you are being illogical, I just really don't understand what you mean by this.

The newspaper article is obviously fishing for controversy because controversy means more people reading papers; but if this is being put out to the general public.
If we respond to the article, then we've fallen for it.
If we don't respond to the article, then the uninformed will take the newspapers story as the truth.

Unfortunately this is an ongoing tactic in the media business at the moment. By constantly attacking weaker stereotypes it either causes more readers amongst them or pushes them further from the norm.

She was the one who deliberately brought up the idea of wanting a man to give her children.

Which is not the same as her saying she can't find a guy to "hit it."

Frankly, reading some of the rest of her articles..

"Perfect young men in perfectly cut suits serve retired Parisians"
?Bathroom?s been designed by a man,? I say. ?Shocking.? We shake our heads in disgust, and I revert to being a Frenchwoman.

And most damning of all..

?You tell me,? I say to the husband.

I'm sorry. So not only is he 'the husband', but you're looking around for men to sleep with?

Finding someone to sleep with is probably something she can do, it's finding someone who will step up and raise children with her that she is apparently having problems with. She seems to think she is somehow entitled to a husband, which makes me want to lock her in a room with the next whiny fanboy who thinks he's entitled to a girlfriend.

Which is amusing because they're the ones she's complaining about.

I'm reminded of IDT/INDT from the classroom blackboards, or is that something equally un-PC?

I googled IDT/INDT and couldn't find an actual definition, and I've never heard of it before, so I can't tell you if it's PC or not. Probably not, is my guess.

IDT/INDT is a childish little game where someone writes a phrase like "Simmons is gay" with the collorary of If Destroyed, True and If Not Destroyed, True so there's a Catch 22 situation for the name calling that comes just as you're stuck trying to remove it from the blackboard (Blackboard was the thing I was most concerned about being un-PC, though most of the Africans/Asians I talk to laugh their heads off at that and wonder why whiteboard hasn't been banned, but I digress....)

And let's face it, with most men we argue with, we agree whether we'd hit it or not.

What? Wait! What?! Let me just double-check what you said there - with most men you argue with, you agree whether you'd hit it or not - so when when Kevin McCullough posted that bullshit about Mass Effect, you discussed his fuckability just like you did with the woman who wrote the article?

Didn't actually see that quote, but if any appearance/sexuality comes into it, (And she is judging our biological compatability purely by game playing, so we're not stepping on any toes here) then there's obviously a discussion on that front. Most talk is of a childlike nature but it's a pecking order style. It's just that with most men, they're pig ugly anyway.
See any article mentioning Antonio Banderas for the "If I was, I would".
It's very similar to the feminine tittle tattle about her dress/shoes.

Or are you saying that any two guys talking about a woman must at some point in the conversation determine whether or not they'd have sex with her?

Not must, just probably will do if appearance is mentioned.

Because if you mean the first, dude, I'm totally bummed that I missed that part of the conversation,

I missed the whole thing so never mind.

and if you mean the second, then wow, I'm not sure whether that is more insulting to women or to men.

Probably men because that's the way we have of reinforcing our own views on sexuality since the total media emasculation through articles like this. Given that viewpoint is shared by a lot of non-gamers and the idea of going straight into a marriage contract is terrifying for most teenagers; there's always been a healthy fantasy life in whether you'd "do her", despite any truth or reality to the statement.

It's just that as part of the alleged RULERS OF THE WORLD, life pretty much sucks for us too. You don't need to be in a minority to be buried in shit.

I would agree with that. Which is why I think feminism is not just for women. The way the gender divide works now, it kecks things up for everyone.

Agree totally. Universal Sufferage (Thanks Sid Meier) would be far more useful for Humanity.

Ultimately, feminism is (or should be, in my opinion) about making sure that everyone has the full range of options for pursuing happiness, which is why the sooner this sexist "Well, I disagree with her, but more importantly I wouldn't fuck her" mode of argument dies out, the sooner things start getting better for everyone.

The problem is, when Minority A are being given special rights that Minority B aren't allowed , then the bile will flow. Sad but true.

I think, or at least I hope, that the "not 'do'ing her" is more of an afterthought than a focus of the statement though. Yahtzee has used it to effect in both a Hetero and Homosexual way in a few of his reviews. No-one really expects that he pleasures himself over guns, do they?

 

[missreznor]

Despite having only read the first page and the article, I actually created an account so that I could say how unbelievably sexist this ignorant woman is. I am a girl, and probably deemed 'too old' for computer games (just about). I have been playing them since before I can remember and still do now and I'm incredibly sick of being told that this is something that teenage males should do. Why does she care so much about what other people enjoy doing? No one is forcing her to play games! Personally I think traipsing round shops full of the same things all day or reading about what people you don't even know do is something that 'intelligent' people might avoid. Computer games are fun, so what is the problem?

 

[teh_gunslinger]

So, I've just finished readig for tommorows class in the contruction of the early european states. I'm taking this course at university. I'm taking a degree in history and so on. But the reading is done, and now I'm going to fire up my PS2 and I think I'll complete GoW2 today. Havn't had the time to do so before now, what with exams and such. Or maybe I'll put on my new BSG dvds and watch some episodes. I don't really know. Or maybe I'll read a book. Or go on painting my WH40K army. Ot read comics. Or maybe keer writing on my little quest thingy for the next time I'm DM'ing with the guys. I have a lot of things to do, most of them geeky. But who cares, right? Weel, the last girl who dumped my ass cause "you just doesn't fit into the way I want my friends to see me..." I actually feel more sorry for her than for me. Poor girl. And now she's complaining that carpenter Johnny (the new guy with six pack and muscles) is treating her like crap. Oh well, at least he's good looking.

I'm 26 and single. I live alone. Tonight I'll head into town and get drunk with a couple of mates. And we'll propably say "I'd hit it" a couple of times during the night.
I've been gaming for something like 16 years. I've been able, I think, to make a life as a somewhat responsible adult. I like drinking with the boys and talking about soccer. I smoke weed fairly often with a couple of other friends. But I sure as hell not watch Big Brother. Or any other kind of reality tv.

So in some ways I guess I live up the the authors ideals of maturity. And in some ways I really don't. I don't care. She is ignorant and as such, not worthy of my time. She got it anyways, but hey.
Her notion of maturity is completley f*cked up.
I know a 30 something girl. Married and a couple of kids. Mentally she is 16. I can't talk to her because her frame of reference is childish. And she keeps trying to get into my pants. Real mature, like that. No. So if mariage and kids does not make a woman mature, why a man/guy?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that maturity is not about your age, gender, marital status, number of kids or your hobbies. It a state of mind. The ability to take responsibilty for your own life and actions.

 

[Girlysprite]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that maturity is not about your age, gender, marital status, number of kids or your hobbies. It a state of mind. The ability to take responsibility for your own life and actions.

Amen to that!

as for feminists...They annoy me sometimes. Why? There is a bunch of them looking down on part-time working mothers, and tell them to work more-more-more, get economically independent, and think that women should all work full time or they are treating themselves bad and being dumb...
And in such a ramble I don't often find mentions of men...why should women change? Why should they run to work full time? Why don't men take a step back, away from the career hunt and share family care?

 

[teh_gunslinger]

And in such a ramble I don't often find mentions of men...why should women change? Why should they run to work full time? Why don't men take a step back, away from the career hunt and share family care?

No worries there. I fully intent to work (when I'm all grown up and educated) only as little as possible to maintain a life I'm comfortable with. I really don't wan't to work myself to death just to be able to by something silly I don't really need.
Much better to spend as much time as possible with my (hopefully real and not just imaginary) family and friends. And also whatever else I wan't to do like gaming.

 

[Necrohydra]

And in such a ramble I don't often find mentions of men...why should women change? Why should they run to work full time? Why don't men take a step back, away from the career hunt and share family care?

No worries there. I fully intent to work (when I'm all grown up and educated) only as little as possible to maintain a life I'm comfortable with. I really don't wan't to work myself to death just to be able to by something silly I don't really need.
Much better to spend as much time as possible with my (hopefully real and not just imaginary) family and friends. And also whatever else I wan't to do like gaming.

It all really comes down to juggling what you have to do and what you want to do. And that depends on what's important to you. Now, this wonderful little thing called "salary" lets companies make you work as LONG as is needed. I've heard stories around my current office of guys working 80+ hour weeks. Even now, they push 50 and 60 on occasion. Granted, times like that fluctuate with the work. Not that I disagree with your sentiments - I personally would also like to work only to maintain a comfortable lifestyle. I'm just seeing how that may wind up being more work than I care for sometimes.

As for women/men changing...someone has to earn income to support the family, and someone has to take care of the kids/house/etc. Can't it be either? Why does society have to be so hung up on whether it's a man or woman earning the bacon? If you find an arrangement that makes you happy and works, than I say go for it.

Unless it involves murdering and pillaging. That just won't do.

 

[Haliwali]

Unless it involves murdering and pillaging. That just won't do.

Wimp

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

And in such a ramble I don't often find mentions of men...why should women change? Why should they run to work full time? Why don't men take a step back, away from the career hunt and share family care?

I look after myself, work up to 60 hours a week, have a varied social life and spam message boards at times. If I could give this work to my partner and still be solvent, I'd do that in a flash and happily keep house/children.

Problem is, if we want a house and not have to worry about where the next meal is coming from; we'll both have to work. Well paid, secure, full time jobs simply don't exist anymore.

 

[windfish]

My question is how this Fine Woman got hired by the Times. Criticizing us men for gaming is a little like criticizing women for liking chick flicks or drawing a distinction between "chocolate" and "candy." (Or even, dare I say it, obsessing over unattainable celebrities who are probably Huge Assholes). We have the urge to just Do Something Else that is decidedly Not Work, and perhaps even inflict Violence upon our foes.

I do not drink, smoke, gamble, or start fights, and I always open doors for young ladies. I also work like a proverbial dog here at college, but I don't ever see myself stop playing video games. Video games are an excellent form of escapism, just like sports, movies, etc. When you're playing a game of, say, Ultimate Frisbee with some Fine Young Lads, all of a sudden, it doesn't matter that you have a Linear Algebra assignment due in 13 hours, or a program to write. It just matters that you have 20 yards to run and leap before the Frisbee lands, and it's better if your catch is spectacular. Men have been playing sports since we discovered that there exists time when it is not necessary to do work to survive.

Also, reading a good sci/fi or fantasy novel. Yes, I know that Wheel of Time is bad for me - 11 900 page books with a plot more tangled than that Gordian Knot, but it's some awesome fantasy, grasping at the coat-tails of Mighty Tolkien.

Action movies have also been around for a while, since (dare I say it) the vaunted 60s, when all men were clearly Very Mature and Never Did Anything Foolish or Unreasonable.

Video games are not things to "grow out of." My parents don't play them, because it's not part of their culture, but between working one full-time and one part-time job, my dad now and then stays up late and watches a Bad-Ass movie like LOTR or Gladiator. Why? Because he ****ing deserves it. And my mother has absolutely no problem with it. My dad also took up the bagpipes, most likely because he is awesome. It my dad had been born in '88, he'd be playing GoW or Twilight Princess like the rest of us. He'd still be playing the bagpipes, because they've Been Around for a While.

WindFish, why are you talking about sports, action movies, novels, etc, and not so much on the Video Games? Well, folks, it's because they're related. And, just like there are millions of Fine Young Ladies who enjoy sports, action movies, and scifi/fantasy novels, there are also millions of said Young Ladies who enjoy a good round of Super Smash Bros, or Mario Kart (otherwise known as the "girlfriend game"). Granted, I don't know many girls who enjoy FPS s quite like men do, but I also don't know many men who enjoy "Peggle". You do find plenty of Women-Folk who enjoy Zelda, though - perhaps that's because Link reminds them of some Unattainable Celebrity that they've been lusting after. Or because it's fun. One of the two.

Windfish, why do you type so long? Because I have some dead time. Why do you Capitalize Unnecessarily? Because I read Winnie-the-Pooh as a child, and I never grew out of it. Some people abbreviate obsessive-compulsively. I Capitalize.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Woo, nerve hit. Let's make sure this doesn't get catty..

Agreed. I've managed to keep myself out of Fandom_Wank for almost five years and I'd sort of like to keep that record. And my nerves are just fine, and I hope yours are as well. I try not to bait people because arm wrestling over ideas is fun, but kerfuffles are a bore. If any of my jokes or teasing go over the line into personal attack, I hope someone will call me on it. You guys are being downright gentlemanly to me, I have to say, compared to my experience on other boards. Also, this is nothing compared to some of the online knife fights I've gotten into with other feminists. And that's not a girl thing, that's a you-always-fight-the-most-with-your-own-family thing.

The newspaper article is obviously fishing for controversy because controversy means more people reading papers; but if this is being put out to the general public.
If we respond to the article, then we've fallen for it.
If we don't respond to the article, then the uninformed will take the newspapers story as the truth.

Unfortunately this is an ongoing tactic in the media business at the moment. By constantly attacking weaker stereotypes it either causes more readers amongst them or pushes them further from the norm.

Gotcha. And yes, you are absolutely right. I've seen this tactic many, many times.

She was the one who deliberately brought up the idea of wanting a man to give her children.

Which is not the same as her saying she can't find a guy to "hit it."

Frankly, reading some of the rest of her articles..

(Kate Muir stuff)

I tried to read her other articles, but every time I tried to pull up any of her columns I got nothing but 500 errors. I assumed that the omnidirectional in-rush of scorn broke their site.

She seems to think she is somehow entitled to a husband, which makes me want to lock her in a room with the next whiny fanboy who thinks he's entitled to a girlfriend.

Which is amusing because they're the ones she's complaining about.

Egg-zack-ly!

Ultimately, feminism is (or should be, in my opinion) about making sure that everyone has the full range of options for pursuing happiness, which is why the sooner this sexist "Well, I disagree with her, but more importantly I wouldn't fuck her" mode of argument dies out, the sooner things start getting better for everyone.

The problem is, when Minority A are being given special rights that Minority B aren't allowed , then the bile will flow. Sad but true.

The question of "special rights" is such a HUGE one, I'm not going to try and address it here. I am aware that this is, after all, a gaming site, not a feminism discussion board. Suffice it to say that I agree to respectfully disagree with you on this point, and that I believe that the whole "special rights" concept is akin to the IDT/INDT concept in that it is a no-win proposition and its purpose is to create unproductive conflict between different groups of people who should be working together.

I think, or at least I hope, that the "not 'do'ing her" is more of an afterthought than a focus of the statement though. Yahtzee has used it to effect in both a Hetero and Homosexual way in a few of his reviews. No-one really expects that he pleasures himself over guns, do they?

Yahtzee gets away with a lot under the "I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone" clause. That and the fact that, y'know, he's actually FUNNY and stuff.