Video games are an indication of a new "Man-Teen" culture....for gods sake....

[mshcherbatskaya]

(A)lmost every revolution and reform has wound up enforcing their changes, to ill effect, even feminism itself has shot its own foot with such reforms

Man, tell me about it. There are feminisms - it really should be plural, because there are radically different feminist traditions and lines of thought - that have shot ME in the foot. I was an infantry grunt in the Feminist Sex Wars [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Sex_Wars] and I've been hit with so much friendly fire over the years, I set off airport metal detectors.

although we cant see the unexpected consequences of a male thought reform, thats only because they are, after all, unexpected.

I've seen a lot of reform, and a lot of backlash, on both sides. I really appreciate the fact that I can have this conversation on this board. Things do change, which is good.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Glad to see we agree on most things.

The question of "special rights" is such a HUGE one, I'm not going to try and address it here. I am aware that this is, after all, a gaming site, not a feminism discussion board. Suffice it to say that I agree to respectfully disagree with you on this point, and that I believe that the whole "special rights" concept is akin to the IDT/INDT concept in that it is a no-win proposition and its purpose is to create unproductive conflict between different groups of people who should be working together.

Not quite sure what you're disagreeing with me on here, but it'd be boring if we agreed on everything.
I'm still a little puzzled why
Gamer : "Well, I disagree with her, but more importantly I wouldn't fuck her"
is so far different from
Writer : "Well, I don't like games, but more importantly I wouldn't have children with him."

Whilst there are slobbering boobophiliacs in our camp, there seems to be drooling walletophiliacs in the other camp.
Feminism seems to be a strange word, because at it's base we're looking at rights for all, no matter what may have happened in the past. Building "Rights" based on the past just seems to guarantee we'll make those same mistakes again.

Let's face it, if Kate Muir got fired for writing that article, what would the next headline be?
"TOP TIMES TOTTY TOPPLED?" or "Writer fired for misanthropic viewpoints" or "MISOGYNISTIC MALE OPPRESSORS AFRAID OF THEIR OWN MEDICINE."

Someone has to put the gun down first.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Not to contradict myself and start in with personal attacks on Kate Muir, but I think her being French explains a lot. Everything that I have read about the status of women in French society and French ideas about feminism and femininity makes me go WTF? and also makes me very thankful that I am not French. It all seems to be a very Sex in the City style of feminism. Also, French women didn't get the vote until 1944? That's so fucked up.

I realized pretty early in my anime/manga consumption career that, sometimes, you just need to let the Japanese be Japanese. I think, when it comes to social movements and social theory, you just have to let the French be French.

On an unrelated note: I am inordinately bummed that my Hello Kitty/"I have no mouth and I must scream" icon isn't legible at 75x75.

 

[Sniper_Zegai]

I must say I agree with root.

Whats really the qaulity of difference between a gamer saying "I wouldnt hit it" and her saying "I wouldnt marry a gamer or have his children"

I said "Id hit it" as a joke but if I was in serious debate then Id be more restrained.

 

[Count_de_Monet]

Maturity is a bullshit term. The only useful definition of maturity is biological maturity because it's a set definition with certain criteria which must be met. Social maturity is subject to way too much individual interpretation and personal opinion.

The writer of the article may say it's immature for a young male to spend their time playing video games but I think it's immature to waste all of your life in bars trying to pick up chicks, drinking yourself into a stupor and just plain stupid getting yourself into soul-crushing debt just so you can call yourself the proud owner of a building you hate in 30 years... If having a wife, kids, and a mortgage was the measure of maturity and stability then prostitution, bars and strip clubs would have died out centuries ago...

 

[Joe]

Our Good Right Publisher Alex sent this link my way a couple days ago, and it's got me thinking less about the videogame scapegoat in the article and more about the actual reasons a lot of men are opting not to marry, myself included. Granted, I'm reasonably young and still in the oat-sowing stage, firmly a Gen-Y kid through and through. But unless something changes, I can't imagine getting married.

I've managed to break it down a few ways:
The odds are really bad. The divorce rate is hovering around 50 percent, which means you're tossing a coin to find out if your marriage survives. Toss in the fact a lot of people still don't divorce for financial, religous and familial reasons, and the chances of being happily married in the long-term go down even more.
The financials don't work out. Even when you combine salaries, you're doubling your payments on everything but your house, which is usually the one thing you end up fighting the most over in a divorce (except for children and pets). Toss in the fact you're doubling the cost of your food and entertainment, you can actually come out behind on the monthly budget if the other person has money burning a hole in their pocket. And then there's the tax bracket problem, which looks good on paper but isn't as great an incentive as it used to be.
I've got enough of my own dreams. I don't need another person's. In an ideal world, you and your partner's goals would compliment each other's, but if I were waiting around for a woman who wants to make a living by teaching baseball in Europe off the back of a high-powered motorcycle, chances are I'd never get married anyway. Once more than one person gets involved, life becomes about compromising, which is great and all, but sometimes you gotta go your own way. Getting married makes it a lot harder to do that.
Married people are boring. Seriously, everyone I know who's married doesn't do much adventurous stuff. I chalk this up to the travel cost for two being higher, and the added responsibility you lay upon your spouse if you die.
Kids suck. They're not always part of being married, but the chances go up. I like kids fine. Babies, too. I don't like dropping a grand a month on their well-being when I could be spending money on cool shit or investing it to ultimately will away to my nieces and nephews.
I'm not entirely sure humans are programmed to have lifetime mates. I think most people work better when they have a mate, but very few can hook up with just one other person and remain happy. Maybe the institution of marriage really just is an institution rather than a biological imperative. I mean, I have trouble staying in the same apartment for more than a year.

Looking over the list, it's pretty easy to call me selfish, pragmatic and immature, which probably isn't unfair. But I just think I'm being honest with myself.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Not quite sure what you're disagreeing with me on here, but it'd be boring if we agreed on everything.
I'm still a little puzzled why
Gamer : "Well, I disagree with her, but more importantly I wouldn't fuck her"
is so far different from
Writer : "Well, I don't like games, but more importantly I wouldn't have children with him."

Short answer: it has to do with the cultural and historical weight carried by the first argument which has been used to belittle and derail women's ideas since the 1500s. It's kind of like how "******" is classed as obscene (the n-word, like the f-word) but "honky" isn't. JIm Crow may be dead, but it isn't buried, not yet.

Long answer: If you really want it, and I'm kind of hoping you don't because I spend waaaay to much time on the internet as it is, would probably be best handled in PM.

Whilst there are slobbering boobophiliacs in our camp, there seems to be drooling walletophiliacs in the other camp.

And the sooner we overcome the conditions that create them both, the better for everyone.

Feminism seems to be a strange word, because at it's base we're looking at rights for all, no matter what may have happened in the past. Building "Rights" based on the past just seems to guarantee we'll make those same mistakes again.

Agreed. That's why I prefer the version of radical feminism that says, "You know, this whole thing is totally fucked up. We need to take it all apart and rebuild it." But anyone who has tried to do a wholesale remodel of a house while living in it knows how much it sucks. And a lot of people don't want to give up their privileges, and for some, this included the privilege of Victim status. That's one of the things I've had to learn, how to talk about how sexism has hurt and hindered me without insisting on my "rights" as a victim. I try very hard to say, "This is what I don't like, and here is why I don't like it, and here is what I'm doing about it."

One of the things I am doing about it, by the way, is calling bullshit on "feminist" walletophiliacs when the opportunity presents. But you probably don't see that, because that happens over the dinner table or the conference table rather than the internet. OK, no, really, most everything I do happens over the internet in some way, but it happens in other venues. Among other things, the depth of my disdain for the victims of frustrated consumerism and chronic affluenza cannot be overestimated. "Wow, Ms. Muir, I'm really sorry all these gamer man-boys aren't giving you the attention you deserve. I'm sure all the women in the Darfur feel your pain. You know, when they aren't being raped at gunpoint, or with gunpoints and stuff. Jesus, lady, get some fucking perspective. If this is all you have to be outraged over, you got bigger problems than the Xbox. You know, your life always looks the shittiest when you have your head up your own ass."

Let's face it, if Kate Muir got fired for writing that article, what would the next headline be?
"TOP TIMES TOTTY TOPPLED?" or "Writer fired for misanthropic viewpoints" or "MISOGYNISTIC MALE OPPRESSORS AFRAID OF THEIR OWN MEDICINE."

The next headline depends on which paper you look at, but I would file it all under the heading of "fostering counter-productive infighting" I mentioned earlier.

Someone has to put the gun down first.

I could say that, if I have a blaster pistol and you have a plasma cannon, I'd prefer that you put your gun down first. But instead, how about I say this. Keep your plasma cannon on your back, I'll keep my pistol in its holster, we'll sit down and talk and agree to shoot whichever of our own people fires first. Deal?

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Our Good Right Publisher Alex sent this link my way a couple days ago, and it's got me thinking less about the videogame scapegoat in the article and more about the actual reasons a lot of men are opting not to marry, myself included.

...list goes here...

Looking over the list, it's pretty easy to call me selfish, pragmatic and immature, which probably isn't unfair. But I just think I'm being honest with myself.

Factoring in Gen-X/Gen-Y, female/male, and gay/straight (I assume) differences, I agree with you almost point for point. That's why I can't work up any steam to support the whole gay marriage thing - "Sure, I think gay couples should be allowed to fuck up their lives by leg-shackling themselves to another human being, just like straight couples do." Whoopty-fucking-doo. I'd rather be a crazy cat lady. Or rat lady, in my case. Bad allergies, y'know?

 

[Sniper_Zegai]

Im gonna go through this list according to the way I live my life and give some input and just for reference, I live with my partner (not married), I have 2 kids, a cat and my own place with said partner and kids.

I've managed to break it down a few ways:
The odds are really bad. The divorce rate is hovering around 50 percent, which means you're tossing a coin to find out if your marriage survives. Toss in the fact a lot of people still don't divorce for financial, religous and familial reasons, and the chances of being happily married in the long-term go down even more.

The financials don't work out. Even when you combine salaries, you're doubling your payments on everything but your house, which is usually the one thing you end up fighting the most over in a divorce (except for children and pets). Toss in the fact you're doubling the cost of your food and entertainment, you can actually come out behind on the monthly budget if the other person has money burning a hole in their pocket. And then there's the tax bracket problem, which looks good on paper but isn't as great an incentive as it used to be.

I know several people who have been married and every last one of them have ended at divorce court. As for financial, I dont have any debt but I do keep a close eye on where the money goes, although my partner deals with the bills, I wouldnt allow her to get a credit card or anything along those lines. Im not dominant or anything its just we have a very clear understanding when it comes to cash.

I've got enough of my own dreams. I don't need another person's. In an ideal world, you and your partner's goals would compliment each other's, but if I were waiting around for a woman who wants to make a living by teaching baseball in Europe off the back of a high-powered motorcycle, chances are I'd never get married anyway. Once more than one person gets involved, life becomes about compromising, which is great and all, but sometimes you gotta go your own way. Getting married makes it a lot harder to do that.

Married people are boring. Seriously, everyone I know who's married doesn't do much adventurous stuff. I chalk this up to the travel cost for two being higher, and the added responsibility you lay upon your spouse if you die.

Horridly true, simply being in a partnership put an end to most of my hobbies, have'nt been to archery practice in months, who knows when I lasted painted something or even had the time to enjoy privacy for more than an hour at a time. I love the kids and all that but its easy to miss. . .ya know, freedom.

Kids suck. They're not always part of being married, but the chances go up. I like kids fine. Babies, too. I don't like dropping a grand a month on their well-being when I could be spending money on cool shit or investing it to ultimately will away to my nieces and nephews.

As said I love my kids but when they are here its the end of the line so to speak. You think you can make your life work around your hobbies and such but it will eventually come down on you that for all intents and purposes, the jig is up.

I'm not entirely sure humans are programmed to have lifetime mates. I think most people work better when they have a mate, but very few can hook up with just one other person and remain happy. Maybe the institution of marriage really just is an institution rather than a biological imperative. I mean, I have trouble staying in the same apartment for more than a year.

Despite all the above, I dont dislike my life as it is and I still have ways to keep myself occupied. I have another spare cash to keep a healthy games supply and I enjoy a few other activities but that does'nt change the fact that I'll never have the freedom of choice or finance I once had.

And who would have thought, none of it was brought on by being a gamer. In fact its probably video games that keep me entertained enough to prevent me from going on a shotgun rampage at city hall just so I have something do.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Can I just say that I'm astonished and near elated that this has been handled so maturely? You'd think us gamers were mature after all.

Short answer: it has to do with the cultural and historical weight carried by the first argument which has been used to belittle and derail women's ideas since the 1500s.

Ugh...but then we're talking about NOT bringing the past into this.
If we're sliding off into the N word, there's a very good Richard Pryor/Chevvy Chase sketch based on the whole honky/negro synergy that I'd suggest looking up. People who have dark coloured skin refer to each other (Chris Rock, Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy) using that term but it contains far too much inherent possibilities of racism.
[Counterpoing : If you're pronouncing the N word with 3 g's, you're being racist. If you think any white person using it is a member of the KKK, you're also being racist.]

Long answer: If you really want it, and I'm kind of hoping you don't because I spend waaaay to much time on the internet as it is, would probably be best handled in PM.

I spend too much time on the Internet as well, and my girlfriend and I haven't been able to come to a set definition yet, but thanks for the offer .

I could say that, if I have a blaster pistol and you have a plasma cannon, I'd prefer that you put your gun down first. But instead, how about I say this. Keep your plasma cannon on your back, I'll keep my pistol in its holster, we'll sit down and talk and agree to shoot whichever of our own people fires first. Deal?

I have to live with my gender. Master_CHIEV_001_LOL is going to shoot at you anyway, whilst Unfulfilled_Tormented_Diva_001 is going to scream and return fire.
I'd suggest sitting in No Man's Land until we can sneak some Bromine into their tea.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Not quite sure what you're disagreeing with me on here, but it'd be boring if we agreed on everything.
I'm still a little puzzled why
Gamer : "Well, I disagree with her, but more importantly I wouldn't fuck her"
is so far different from
Writer : "Well, I don't like games, but more importantly I wouldn't have children with him."

Short answer: it has to do with the cultural and historical weight carried by the first argument which has been used to belittle and derail women's ideas since the 1500s. It's kind of like how "******" is classed as obscene (the n-word, like the f-word) but "honky" isn't. JIm Crow may be dead, but it isn't buried, not yet.

I disagree. 'honky' doesn't connote any loss of 'whiteness'. Attacking a man's suitability as a mate is attacking his very male-ness, his place in the hierarchy. Saying you won't have children with a man is basically saying that you don't believe him to be an alpha male, AND more importantly, that you subscribe to the idea that sexual access to females is a proper scale on which to rank the men of the species.

There is no more "cultural and historical weight carried by the first argument" as there is in the second argument because, for all intents and purposes, it's the *same* argument. Heck, the issue of women deciding men are suitable mates or not goes back to the Rape of the Sabine Women from Ancient Rome--now there's some 'cultural and historical baggage'!

I was talking specifically about it as a rhetorical technique for shutting down a person's intellectual argument. I've not seen, "I would never have your kids!" used to invalidate a man's ideas, though I have seen used to validate/attack his status as a desirable male. I started way back there on page 2 talking about how the assertion that a woman is unfuckable is used to attack women's ideas, not their more general social status. In a more general social context, I agree that "I would/would never have children with you" is the female equivalent of "I would/wouldn't do her," and operates in largely the same way.

Now, admittedly, Kate Muir's article is kind of low on ideas, so it's kind of hard to address her on that level. I would say that her article breaks down into two parts: video games are contributing to the infantilization of men, which is an idea which can be refuted; and the second part, which is gamer boys are yucky and I don't want to have their babies, which, OK, yeah. I'll give you that. You definitely can point to that and say, in this case, "She started it." But Kevin McCullough's article had a similar breakdown into 1.) Mass Effect is interactive porn that will give our children The Gay (demonstrably untrue) and 2.) Gamers are perverts (so no decent person would want to fuck them or have their babies). But he was not attacked in terms of his sexual viability as a man, and she was. Er, not on her sexual viability as a man, but you know what I meanb. That was my original point.

Damn, it's getting very late in the day and I have poured a lot of time into this thread - time I could have spent gaming! Waaaah!

So I hope you won't think I'm trying to duck out of the discussion because I'm afraid of losing an argument (almost everything important I ever learned started with me losing and argument, actually), or that I'm flouncing off in a huff, but I really need to let this thread go. I've said most of what I have to say on the subject, and more than what most people wanted to read, I'm betting, so I'm going to go walk the dog before she craps on the carpet, and, if I can summon up the willpower, stay off the forum for at least 24 hours.

But seriously, anyone who wants to continue this discussion (or attack my negligible sexual viability) - PM me. I'm not running away, I'm just trying to have a life.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Mass Effect is interactive porn that will give our children The Gay (demonstrably untrue)

I'd love to see that demonstration. Just for giggles.

But he was not attacked in terms of his sexual viability as a man, and she was.

No-one said he was overcompensating or had a small dick? NO-ONE? God...I've lost all faith in mankind. That's my first response to Bush, Thompson or any of the other scaremongers.

I've not seen, "I would never have your kids!" used to invalidate a man's ideas, though I have seen used to validate/attack his status as a desirable male.

Heh. In any arguement with Post Feminisim(Stage III) Daddy's Little Princess, men's ideas are automatically invalid because they're a man. Jump on a MMORPG and pretend to be a man sometime, I assure you it's enlightening when a girl comes along.

 

[Shamtee]

I think shes one of the girls that bullied me at high school for being a girl gamer. It really annoyed me people like that - gaming isn't a age or sex issue. So what if to relax some people... sorry 'men' want to unwind a bit by playing games - hardcore or casual.

Lets see how this compares to me....
' With women, you could argue that adulthood is in fact emergent. Single women in their 20s and early 30s are joining an international New Girl Order, hyper-achieving in both school and an increasingly female-friendly workplace, while packing leisure hours with shopping, traveling and dining with friends. '

okay I'm a women 23 year old... not single thought been engaged for 4 years but lets ignore that part for now.

Hyper-acheving in school
- well i'm a uni doing a game design and loving it. I did rubbish for my GCSE really (learnt all 150 pokemon instead of french :/)
female-friendly workplace
- I've only worked in 2 places. and it was the lady boss that was the worest.
while packing leisure hours with shopping,
- hate cloths shoping. Love game shopping.
traveling
- does to uni and family count?
dining with friends
- not really

That really doesn't describe me or my gal pals who are also gamers.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

(learnt all 150 pokemon instead of french :/)

I'd argue the former is more use.

 

[VikingRhetoric]

And here I thought I was doing the world a favor by not getting some chick pregnant until I'm damn good and ready to support it.

Shows how little I know, and leave it to a french woman to point out my inadequacies.

 

[Sheanus]

In the second article posted here, I saw the lines,

"proving what anthropologists have discovered in cultures everywhere: It is marriage and children that turn boys into men."

now this is true - TO A POINT. What she doesn't understand (or does, maybe twisting to her own purpose) is that RESPONSIBILITY is what makes maturity. Being the son of a Defence Force Officer, I see a fair few Lt. Col. and upwards, in and out of uniform. These men, had they not been given the responsibility of command over a squadron, commonly a battalion. It is this responsibility that matures, not the job or the state of living - the fact that you are the one that makes the decisions, and have to face the consequences if those decisions are the wrong ones.

The thing about video games though is that responsibility is almost nil, we neither have to worry (or in some cases, even care) about what happens as 9 times out of 10 we can go back to the last save point and do it all again. This is what I believe is such a pull for the average male (and female, as I know in some cases) - when we make a choice in real life, we have to live with the consequences - cause gives effect. With a video game, there is that, but if we find it is the wrong choice, we can go back and choose another choice (within the game perameters of course).

It is not the action of marriage that matures, it is in the action of having to care for one's wife and children (or in some cases, where the wife has to care for the husband) that builds maturity.

Video games allow a brief escape from this, and it doesn't suprise me that people spend the time that they do to escape from this world for just a while.

 

[[HD]Rob Inglis]

I'm sorry if this is a bit to much, but Fuck Kate Muir; she's, on purpose, trying to piss people off with this.

 

[Ragweed]

Again, the idea that all gamers are socially inept geeky men; we can be socially inept geeky women too!

The thing about these articles is that they are based on the idea that adulthood means: "House, Kids, Wife (or husband, in my case)". Why does acquiring these things automatically transform you into a mature, football-playing, beer-drinking, womanizing adult? I know married couples who arn't fit to raise a goldfish, never mind children.

I personally think the reason less and less people are getting married/settling down (and it's not just the gaming men) is because it's no longer demanded for independence in society. Constrictions--be they cultural, financial, whatnot--that existed even 30 years ago, don't exist anymore. It's not expected a women to be married and in the kitchen by 25. People have more free time once they get out of school to actually do what they want.

And what so wrong if a guy wants to build Hornby 00-gauge train sets? Everyone has a hobby.